how do i keep shadowrunners alive? Options

[Jericho Alar]

I just don't pull punches.

generally the oppo. is set up based on what I think is logical and reasonable, and its up to my players to circumvent (or not) based on what they think they can take. part of this is decent description (i.e. if the guard at the gate is a cybered up combat monster with 15 dice in his primary combat pool, don't describe him as a donut munching rent-a-cop.) and part of this is not throwing a cyberzombie into every movie theater and restaurant on the block.

It *is* totally reasonable to let either or both side escalate the situation with backup, including but not limited to: corp strike teams, docwagon, other running teams, drones/spirits, the cops, etc. - I've had cases where the runners themselves have intentionally triggered panic alarms when pursued across corp boundaries by rival strike teams, called the cops on gangers, called gangers on cops, etc.

if the runners get in over their heads it's their job to get out intact (or cut their losses and run). one of the things that has been a perennial favorite among groups I gm for is that, in shadowrun, the system encourages an "anyone can die/everyone dies" type attitude that is notably absent from many of the 'heroic fantasy' games on the market today.

[Trench]

The Ares Alpha is the great equalizer. It has 2 points of recoil right out of the box. You can use various burst options to modify lethality on the fly.

[Whipstitch]

The Alpha is a gold standard piece of hardware, but it is a pretty dangerous gun. Generally, I find that assault rifles are a little too good and machine pistols are a little too weak. That's why I personally tend to stick with submachine guns on my opposition forces, since they have a manageable damage code and are fully featured yet inexpensive. For example, the HK MP-5 TX offers 3 points of recoil compensation, a laser sight (great for unaugmented guards!) and only costs 550 nuyen out of the box; it's easy to justify security forces or even gangers having a few on hand and the runner team won't feel so tempted to stop and loot a couple of 'em like they might with an Alpha worth 3 times as much. With a 5P damage code, a couple of wide bursts are reasonably likely to hit a samurai but shouldn't really instagib the other players provided you're using normal ammo.

Plus, range penalties matter. Guards with assault rifles often aren't worth bothering to try to out distance; you need to get out to 50 meters before they face even a 1 die penalty and have to get to 150+ meters before they face a 3 dice penalty. In Shadowrun's urban environments, that often just means that assault rifles are always effective. SMGs, on the other hand, hit a nice sweet spot in my opinion; beyond 10 meters they face a modest 1 dice penalty which should help keep the team alive. But just as importantly, it takes 40 meters before the guards start facing the (often crippling to mundos) 3 dice long range penalty, so the runners often have to work a bit to get to a "safe" distance.

[Traul]

One thing not to forget: shorter weapons are more practical when fighting indoors. It's a pity there is no rule to support that, as it leads to sniper rifle madness.

[Kagetenshi]

5P damage code

I think you mean 6M. Anyway, it only has 2 recoil compensation, which'll avoid them getting off too-accurate bursts.

~J

[Method]

Did I miss something? Is this a SR3 thread? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Anyway I wanted to echo a point Kagetenshi made above about tactics: if your players are new to SR and used to levels they may underestimate the importance of tactics. SR combat can be exceedingly lethal. Even a lowly ganger can badly injure or even kill a runner with a little luck. Sometimes things like cover, concealment, surprise, use of smoke, ect are what determines the winner. One way to impress this upon the runners is to start with light opposition (as some have recommended) until the players get somewhat comfortable with the rules. Then have similar opposition start using increasingly sophisticated tactics (cover, concealment, surprise, snipers, smoke, etc) until the PCs catch on or get trounced. One way or the other, they'll learn.

[Ryu]

I appriciate the tips! thanks! now, how do i do matrix runs without everyone eelse taking a nap...

Exactly how you introduce the rest - you start easy and wait for everybody to figure it out. I would personally suggest to keep it simple even for an experienced group.

[Kagetenshi]

Did I miss something? Is this a SR3 thread? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

It's not labeled SR4, so the answer must be yes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

(Seriously, I mostly keep to threads that are explicitly SR3-oriented and apparently forgot that this one was an exception. Now I'm really glad I didn't post that rant about people who don't read thread labels (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

~J

[sqir666]

You do several things here. You can either do as everyone has suggested or you do a one off with Food Fight. Then again, there's my personal favorite, just take the gloves off and let your group experience how quick combat can be in Shadowrun.

Though the last one is just me and my experience with SR, and I've never had a problem with the lethality of SR. Because it helps you to get of the "Heroic Fantasy" mindset of cover shmover, which I've never agreed with.

[Drraagh]

I appriciate the tips! thanks! now, how do i do matrix runs without everyone eelse taking a nap...

The best way to do matrix runs is get everyone involved. When I deal with matrix runs in a tabletop session, I usually like to try and get the other players involved, having them do things like playing the part of IC and doing the rolls for it when in combat and so forth. Gives them something to do, and they are able to keep involved in the game.

There is also the option of having the matrix runs be done seperately, but sometimes that doesn't work if it happens in the middle of a run and the decker needs to paly overwatch. So that's when I like doing it like the last few chapters of Neuromancer, flipping back and forth between each player.

[kzt]

You do several things here. You can either do as everyone has suggested or you do a one off with Food Fight. Then again, there's my personal favorite, just take the gloves off and let your group experience how quick combat can be in Shadowrun.

Though the last one is just me and my experience with SR, and I've never had a problem with the lethality of SR. Because it helps you to get of the "Heroic Fantasy" mindset of cover shmover, which I've never agreed with.

The players all get comfortable with shooting and are busy shooting from behind cover at the bad guys and knocking them down like 10 pins when two bad guys air-burst HE grenades over the PCs, followed by an F5 spirit.

[sqir666]

The players all get comfortable with shooting and are busy shooting from behind cover at the bad guys and knocking them down like 10 pins when two bad guys air-burst HE grenades over the PCs, followed by an F5 spirit.

That's why you have a) A mage in the team, b) geek the opposing mage first , and finally c) someone in the team needs to be throwing grenades themselves.

[Jericho Alar]

mages are like snipers - best deployed when they're interdicting the *other guys'* sinpers and keeping them from shooting at anything terribly important...

[Ascalaphus]

Take them to watch some movies like The Italian Job; try to show them the idea that the best run is the one where you don't fire a single bullet. When I play a mage, that's my attitude.

("Well just shapeshift the Adept into a rat so he can drag in the laser transmitter through the faraday's cage. I'll turn into a bird to watch him through the armored-glass window and shapeshift him back and forth.") The only thing the 'Sam had to do was hold the other laser transmitter for the hacker and drink some beer.

This can be tricky for characters who don't have any way to shine without combat however. Encourage people to have more than one kind of trick up their sleeve.

[Drraagh]

Take them to watch some movies like The Italian Job; try to show them the idea that the best run is the one where you don't fire a single bullet. When I play a mage, that's my attitude.

("Well just shapeshift the Adept into a rat so he can drag in the laser transmitter through the faraday's cage. I'll turn into a bird to watch him through the armored-glass window and shapeshift him back and forth.") The only thing the 'Sam had to do was hold the other laser transmitter for the hacker and drink some beer.

This can be tricky for characters who don't have any way to shine without combat however. Encourage people to have more than one kind of trick up their sleeve.

Depending on the type of game you're looking at playing, there's a lot of movies here for that. The Hackers series of movies: Hackers, Takedown and Antitrust all have little to no combat in them at all, but are full of various little tricks that could be useful for a shadowrunner. Same as Sneakers, Foolproof... The list goes on.

It's all a matter of what type of tricks you're looking for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

SR4 combat is pretty lopsided due to the 'two shot' damage system. If you get hit and take damage through armour, the DP modifers ensure you'll get hit again, and the second hit will probably kill you.

So if it 'feels' like the players are just mowing down their opponents, don't take a massive leap up in difficulty, because they might be 'just beating' their opponent in actuality.

Good rule of thumb: total DP * Number of IPs = Character's threat level in physical combat. Note: Mages have spirits which bring 2 x 2 x Force 'threat' to the party, because they have 2 IPs and DPs of twice force in addition to whatever it is the mage can do, which is often significant.

Riggers have much the same effect with drones.

[Kagetenshi]

Take them to watch some movies like The Italian Job; try to show them the idea that the best run is the one where you don't fire a single bullet. When I play a mage, that's my attitude.

("Well just shapeshift the Adept into a rat so he can drag in the laser transmitter through the faraday's cage. I'll turn into a bird to watch him through the armored-glass window and shapeshift him back and forth.") The only thing the 'Sam had to do was hold the other laser transmitter for the hacker and drink some beer.

Most likely this run would be made easier by the Sam lobbing grenades and shooting anything that moves when you go to leave.

~J

[Jericho Alar]

I happen to bump into this and hadn't seen it mentioned elsewhere on the boards yet, this seemed like a good place for it.

the official website has updated quick-start rules online in pdf form, including the classic favorite Food Fight, here.

pretty sweet early christmas gift from the devs there!

[Ascalaphus]

Most likely this run would be made easier by the Sam lobbing grenades and shooting anything that moves when you go to leave.

~J

No, we managed to avoid all contact with the guards. The Adept in rat-shape just crept up from the sewers-toilet and snuck through the building.

The big lesson for the GM was to never have windows into important parts of the building, even if they're armorer glass - a mage shapeshifted as a little bird can use them for LOS.

[Traul]

The big lesson for the GM was to never have windows into important parts of the building, even if they're armorer glass - a mage shapeshifted as a little bird can use them for LOS.

One-way windows already equip all cars in the sixth world. Can put them in buildings too.

[Whipstitch]

SR4 combat is pretty lopsided due to the 'two shot' damage system. If you get hit and take damage through armour, the DP modifers ensure you'll get hit again, and the second hit will probably kill you.

Heck, even if the first shot misses, you're still facing a penalty for previously defending against an attack since your last action. It's part of why you'll rarely see savvy players use Take Aim for anything but making use of image magnification to eliminate severe range penalties. With decent recoil compensation it's often smarter to just squeeze off a shot via semi-auto and stick them with a -1 penalty. After all, combat is made up of opposed rolls, so deducting a die from your opponent's defense pool is often not functionally much different from adding a die to your own attack pool. Even better, the -1 penalty per attack lingers and stacks until the target takes action, so even if you miss both times your buddy who goes next has a softer target to go after. And of course, there's always the chance that the dice gods smile upon you, and that you connect with your first shot, in which case your opponent is up a creek without a paddle.

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah, even if you cannot hit just spraying bullets in the general direction of the bad guys is still contributing. As long as someone who can hit is going after you anyway.

[Whipstitch]

On the bright side, this also means that using Aimed Shots can be a sneaky way of running your NPCs in a rather sub-optimal manner while still dishing out some damage, which is often all I really want them to do when breaking in a new group. If the guards have to blow an action on using Image Magnification every pass than the odds of a player going from healthy to dead in a single IP suddenly becomes rather small.