Rebooting Shadowrun, ...because it's trendy in Hollywood Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Besides cyberpunk, SR1 was also High Fantasy which it has drifted away from. Starting heavily with SR2 it drifted more into Gun & Sorcery.

One of my big, big complaints is that 4th edition really doesn't feel like it has any of the cyberpunk, High Fantasy, or even folklore based mythology and cultures. If I had money to buy Shadowrun and reboot it I'd definitely hire Bob Charrette and get more of that element of original style back.

I would also go back to the old dice mechanic and fix it a bit. Better to have something unique than be a bad knock-off of WOD. The old system wasn't broken and had many years of knowing what was wrong so it could have been properly fixed. Instead the new system has just as many problems (as the Anniversary edition is now already trying to fix).

The New Philosophy of putting Great Dragons behind everything is just as annoying as the Immortal Elves were.

Old SR had too many magic systems, SR 4 is too few. SR1 felt just right with Mages and Shamans (and Grimoire adding adepts).

Doing away with the Matrix and ad hoc replacement with the ubiquitous Wi-Fi was too much. There could have been a very happy medium for me that was WAY overshot.

I really don't want the NAN and Elven made mundane as they are on their current route to becoming just another set of corporate states. Setting a run in the NAN or Elven Nations produced some of my favorite runs as the setting change drastically through the runners for a new kind of adventure. In fact I think it should go the opposite direction and you could make a lot of the alternate reality setting of "What if" a technocratic state conforming to Lakota ideals or how Fae creatures mind blend magic and technology in their own way. The way they're being handled in 4th leaves be totally uninterested.

First off, I really don't agree with a majority of what you said, but if that is your style, well, go with it...

As for setting runs in the NAN or Elven Nation, you can still do that, you don't even lose anything in doing so... it is as much the NAN (or Elven Kingdom) as it always was, it is jus t that now, Shadowrun has gone global... no longer is the NAN and Seatle the end all be all of the Shadowrun Universe... I think that this is a good thing... it opens up the world for more possible scenarios.... to do that, however, some things had to be de-emphasized a bit... now, you are getting sourcebooks throughout the world rather than in the Western US...

Give me more options that span the world over the closed spaces of the American Northwest any day... it does not invalidate what has come before, and provides a greater palette with which to paint your stories... Big Win for me...

Of course, Your Mileage May Vary...

Keep the Faith

[Straight Razor]

they did, it was called 4th ed

[Semerkhet]

Besides cyberpunk, SR1 was also High Fantasy which it has drifted away from. Starting heavily with SR2 it drifted more into Gun & Sorcery.

I wish I could be content to just agree with Tymeaus and say I don't agree with what you are saying, but your exaggerations and misrepresentations cry out for a more complete rebuttal.

SR1 was "High Fantasy?" Really? To quote a favorite fictional character who was actually in a High Fantasy world, "I do not think that word means what you think it means." The defining characteristics of High Fantasy are that the stories take place in an entirely fictional world like Middle Earth or Shannara and involve an epic struggle between good and evil. How exactly was SR1 High Fantasy? How was SR ever *not* about guns and sorcery?

One of my big, big complaints is that 4th edition really doesn't feel like it has any of the cyberpunk, High Fantasy, or even folklore based mythology and cultures. If I had money to buy Shadowrun and reboot it I'd definitely hire Bob Charrette and get more of that element of original style back.

Okay, SR was never High Fantasy, so it can't drift away from something it wasn't. As for cyberpunk, I guess it depends on what you mean by cyberpunk. If you choose the definition of a "high tech and low life" dystopian setting in the near future, then SR is as much cyberpunk as it ever was. If you mean the 1980s cultural trappings associated with the seminal cyberpunk fiction novels, then I guess you can say that SR has drifted away from that. I say good riddance, but YMMV.

No folklore based mythology and cultures? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this, but if you mean things like the Celtic-inspired Tir Na Nog or the Druid folklore influences on the UK and the, umm, Native American folklore-influenced Native American Nations and the Mesoamerican folklore-influenced Aztlan, then I think you can safely say that those are all still in the game.

I would also go back to the old dice mechanic and fix it a bit. Better to have something unique than be a bad knock-off of WOD. The old system wasn't broken and had many years of knowing what was wrong so it could have been properly fixed. Instead the new system has just as many problems (as the Anniversary edition is now already trying to fix).

Okay, the core dice mechanic is down to preference, but I still have to take issue. Why is it better to have something unique when we're talking about a dice mechanic? How about something where GMs can actually estimate chance of success with a given DP and Threshold rather than the mess that was the old dice mechanic. You say they could keep the old mechanic and "fix it a bit" or be "properly fixed" but you offer no insight as to what you actually mean. Don't you think that if they, as you say, "had many years of knowing what was wrong" that they would have fixed it in SR2 or SR3? The dice mechanic was just plain bad and I've been saying that since 1989. Finally, SR4 does have its problems, but none of them are directly attributable to the change in dice mechanic.

The New Philosophy of putting Great Dragons behind everything is just as annoying as the Immortal Elves were.

The Immortal Elves were always there and still are, especially with the new adventure series having an intro featuring Ehran and Harlequin. The Great Dragons were always there and I don't feel like they're being given much more emphasis than they ever were. Lofwyr was a member of the Council of Princes and the CEO of SK back in SR1. Ole Darktooth was elected president in SR2 or 3 (I forget which.) Again, you present an opinion and give nothing to support your case that putting dragons in charge is the "New Philosophy" of the developers.

Old SR had too many magic systems, SR 4 is too few. SR1 felt just right with Mages and Shamans (and Grimoire adding adepts).

I can sympathize here. I think there are pluses and minuses to the new system of traditions.

Doing away with the Matrix and ad hoc replacement with the ubiquitous Wi-Fi was too much. There could have been a very happy medium for me that was WAY overshot.

Too much? You do realize that the SR4 vision of the wireless matrix is likely to be substantially true by the 2020's, right? It's "too much" to update the SR setting to a view of communications and computer technology that is merely a few steps ahead of our own? Do you not see how laughably outdated was the view of those sorts of technologies in previous editions?

If, on the other hand, you're saying that "too much" means too different from how it worked, rules-wise, in previous editions, well that's your prerogative.

I really don't want the NAN and Elven made mundane as they are on their current route to becoming just another set of corporate states. Setting a run in the NAN or Elven Nations produced some of my favorite runs as the setting change drastically through the runners for a new kind of adventure. In fact I think it should go the opposite direction and you could make a lot of the alternate reality setting of "What if" a technocratic state conforming to Lakota ideals or how Fae creatures mind blend magic and technology in their own way. The way they're being handled in 4th leaves be totally uninterested.

Your preferences are your own, obviously, but I feel obligated to note that there have been no books published under 4th detailing any of the elven or NAN nations, so it might be a bit early to judge whether they retain some of their unique flavor.

In conclusion, what I'm seeing from you and a few others in this topic, and in the forum in general, is a sort of nostalgic idealism, ascribing traits to the good old days of SR1 that were never really true. I've seen several cases of exaggerating traits of both SR1 and SR4 for the rhetorical purpose of making the contrast between the two editions seem more drastic than it is. This behavior is bizarrely similar to the attitudes among some older conservative Americans that the 1950s were some Ozzy and Harriet innocent Golden Age of American society. Let's not put SR1 up on a pedestal. It was a great game with a unique and compelling premise that was pretty cutting edge for its time. It also had numerous glaring flaws in its rule system that drove many people, myself included, to abandon it or house-rule it into oblivion.

Shadowrun has moved on, why can't you?

[limejello10512]

ooh! they should make it d20!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :takes cover: that was a joke! It was just a joke!

we if they reboot I think first thing they should do is get some good security cause they be getting death threats from the fan boys. Supposedly the Xbox game was a reboot and you saw how well that worked. (although I don't see how it doesn't fit into the cannon all the timeline stuff works out and the other stuff just be can be said to be game mechanics.)

though I'm less interested in a literal reboot who knows how the future might alter the series. It's 2072 now and soon shadowrun will be in space. Could the colonies be a new avenue for conflict? Perhaps that could lead to more stability back on earth maybe coloton will wind up reestablishing the US. Perhaps china will be restored and a few other powers too then instead of tiny state conflicts there are gigantic world power conflicts but with the minor conflicts persisting in the colonies. At this point perhaps the fragmentation of the world has been the story for long enough and reunification could be the watch word of the day for a bit. That'd be cool I think.

but I just wanna say: YOU TELL EM RAVOR!!!!! also I think there is some confusion as to the meaning of rightwing. While rightwingers are often portrayed as being racist. The classical definition has nothing to do with racism but is in regard to libertarianism. That is to say the essence of rightism is about low taxes and hands off government and in that regard America tends to be very right wing in comparison to europe. I mean even in several free states like france and germany thought control is still practiced for example in germany it's punishable by a year in prison if you "blaspheme" against another religion. Now granted no one likes nazis but in america everyone can speak freely; because unless everyone has free speech then really no one does and the truth is the people didn't just never had the urge to censor someone until then. So yeah I think we tend to be more right wing.

[Not of this Worl...]

As for setting runs in the NAN or Elven Nation, you can still do that, you don't even lose anything in doing so... it is as much the NAN (or Elven Kingdom) as it always was, it is just that now, Shadowrun has gone global...

Oh I can and I still do when I play 3rd edition.

But I won't pick up 4th edition materials because they've steadily been moving away (since late 3rd edition when the decision was made to start moving to 4th) from the Tirs being Elven [ala Corporate Enclaves removing the Council of Princes and making their leader an Ork Corp lacky] or the increased corporatization of the NANs making them from being a unique setting to more of an everyday one.

Part of what was interesting about these settings was more than just being in a different part of the world but that you had places that had vast differences from anything in the modern world such as being run by ancient elven princes from an older world, a resurgent minority culture, police state (Vladivostok yay!) etc. I enjoyed those settings in my game because of the contrast (and sometimes the increased difficulty).

It isn't that I can't still play these things. There just isn't a point for me to buy 4th edition books to do so.

[kzt]

Stating that SR4 "does not work" seems an unfair blanket statement, especially considering how much it still has in common with previous editions. You are exaggerating the magnitude and speed of the changes made to both setting and rules when compared to IPs like the World of Darkness. Finally, the icing on the paranoid cake is to state that "they" made the changes "just because," as if the developers of SR4 were malicious imps making changes willy-nilly with no thought to how they might improve the game.

Yeah, SR4 works at least as well as any previous version. Of course, give how totally broken much of SR1 was ('What does statistics have to do with game design?' = fail) that isn't a really high bar.... But most of the issues that are left are pretty much common to all editions. So the hacking rules don't work. but then they never did - in any edition. And the combat rules are kind of bizarre in parts, but that isn't something new to SR4.

[Ravor]

True, I've found that as long as you keep the dicepools fairly low the rules work smoothly, but I must admit to being peeved at some of the "modernization" in the setting fluff.

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah, SR4 works at least as well as any previous version. Of course, give how totally broken much of SR1 was ('What does statistics have to do with game design?' = fail) that isn't a really high bar.... But most of the issues that are left are pretty much common to all editions. So the hacking rules don't work. but then they never did - in any edition. And the combat rules are kind of bizarre in parts, but that isn't something new to SR4.

Aside from the hacking rules, the rules for SR4 are the best of any RPG in print. Easily.

[Ravor]

I wouldn't quite go that far myself...

[Cthulhudreams]

Well I suppose Fudge is pretty cool... and Feng Shui is awesome tastic (and OOP I think), but what did you have in mind?

[kzt]

As for the rest, the only real difference is in time frames, the newspapers and telegraphs of old were no less "propaganda networks" than CNN and Fox News are today (Or their European counterparts.) and hell if anything I'd say that despite itself the internet actually has a calming affect on the population.

People don't really learn anything about history in school these days. The level of venom and partisanship that has been traditional in the press prior to mid 20th century was pretty astonishing. You can still see this, to some extent, in the UK press. People also don't realize just how weak the tradition of the press sensationalizing out of recognition or just completely making up stories has become over the past few decades. "You furnish the pictures and I’ll furnish the war" wasn't an idle boast.

Part of this was that "Newspapermen" got replaced with "Journalists" in the US, as a traditional blue-collar job became instead staffed by people who graduated from the same elite universities. So you also ended up with most of the "Journalists" having the same general outlook on events and the same political beliefs. As long as the ethics that was developed as part of the professionalization (to suppress the old traditions of partisanship and sensationalism) held out this was ok, but it's becoming more obvious that they are not holding.

Events like the Dan Rather "Fake but accurate" scandal show this. There was always a certain amount of this, as shown by the fact that it's virtually impossible to find a picture of FDR in his wheelchair or any contemporaneous accounts of JFK's philandering, but it's gotten both more obvious and seemingly worse.

And the gatekeeping ability of the media and "Journalists" has decreased. It has become harder to pretend something didn't happen with the number of cameras and avenues for regular people to post pictures and tell their own view of an event or story. The exposure of Dan Rather's "Fake but accurate" scam shows that times have changed.

This is somewhat reflected in SR, but not as much as makes sense. The corporate press should be showing corporate rivals as baby eating crooks, not conspiring to cover up anything. The shadow boards are the pretty much the the way that SR reflects citizen reporting.

[Ravor]

Personally I see nWOD as easily being the equal to Fourth Edition (And better in terms of the way Background Merits and Flaws are handled.), and although I personally don't like GURPS ruleset the rules themself seems "more solid" in play. Hell, in it's own limited "niche" even Cancer 4.0 is pretty good in my opinion.

*EDIT*

To expand on my feelings slightly, Fourth Edition's char gen cost it huge points in my eyes, making it easy and fairly painless to reach hard caps is always a really bad idea in my opinion.

[kzt]

And sure, mainstream America is "rightwing" when compared to Europe, but it is also important to note that our friends across the pond have been predicting and in some cases even wishing for our demise since we first gave the King a black eye. (With the help of other European nations of course.)

"The great unexplained phenomena of modern astronomy: namely, that the dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe."

[Ravor]

Meh, there really isn't special about Americans with the possible exception that we are just too stubborn to bow down to authority figures in general. If that ever changes then all of the predictions will come true with frightening speed.

[Cthulhudreams]

Personally I see nWOD as easily being the equal to Fourth Edition (And better in terms of the way Background Merits and Flaws are handled.), and although I personally don't like GURPS ruleset the rules themself seems "more solid" in play. Hell, in it's own limited "niche" even Cancer 4.0 is pretty good in my opinion.

*EDIT*

To expand on my feelings slightly, Fourth Edition's char gen cost it huge points in my eyes, making it easy and fairly painless to reach hard caps is always a really bad idea in my opinion.

nWOD suffers from a couple of problems: The powers are stupid (let's consider dominate vs... nightmare? haha) and the combat system has become unbalanced with the loss of the soak role, and it makes dog pile tactics essentially unbeatable. Also why switch to a fixed TN then do other things that make it impossible to eyeball how many successes people will get from a dicepool.

Also the rules for predators taint are actually worse than the matrix rules. In no other RPGs is 'well, you met up in a bar' likely to result in a TPK.

Anyway, that's why I don't like nWOD, the combat rules are worse than SR. In essence. To whit (Stolen from Mr. Bane)

Scenario:

1 Werewolf, Garou Form
Relevant Stats:
# Stamina: 3 (5 with Garou)
# Resolve: 3
# Composure: 3
# Willpower 6
# Size: 5 (6 With Garou)
# Health: 8 (11 With Garou)
# Armor: 0

9 Children, Human Mortal
Relevant Stats:
# Dexterity: 1
# Strength: 1
# Composure: 1
# Resolve: 1
# Firearms: 0 (-1 Dice)
# Weapon: BBgun (+1)
# Willpower: 2


Round 1:
Garou1: Werewolf looks at children.

Children1 <--> 12: Roll 1 (Dex) - 1 (Firearms) + 1 (BBgun) + 3 (Willpower): 4 Dice

9 x 4 = 37 Dice, average Success per 3 dice, 12 Successes.

Werewolf takes 12 Lethal, dies.

Children take out a monster.

I mean really.

[Ravor]

True, which is why I listed it as being the equal of Fourth Edition, it isn't perfect either but I personally like the fact that being mobbed is a very bad thing in combat. I do have to agree about the Vampire rules though, but thankfully that line is easily ignored in the grand scheme of things.

[Cthulhudreams]

But if the rules for powers, combat, resolution mechanics and social interaction are broken, I'm just not clear on what is actually good about nWOD?

[Ravor]

You see, I disagree with most of what you just said about nWOD, sure there are "quirks" in the system, but I don't see them as being any more serious than the "quirks" in Fourth Edition where it is literally possible to have enough dice to relaiably hit a target with virtually every possible combat modifer in play or use ritual magic to kill anyone in the world in one hour.

The vampire line does suck though.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh I can and I still do when I play 3rd edition.

But I won't pick up 4th edition materials because they've steadily been moving away (since late 3rd edition when the decision was made to start moving to 4th) from the Tirs being Elven [ala Corporate Enclaves removing the Council of Princes and making their leader an Ork Corp lacky] or the increased corporatization of the NANs making them from being a unique setting to more of an everyday one.

Part of what was interesting about these settings was more than just being in a different part of the world but that you had places that had vast differences from anything in the modern world such as being run by ancient elven princes from an older world, a resurgent minority culture, police state (Vladivostok yay!) etc. I enjoyed those settings in my game because of the contrast (and sometimes the increased difficulty).

It isn't that I can't still play these things. There just isn't a point for me to buy 4th edition books to do so.

Kinda of sad, but I can see where you are comming from with he reluctance to delve into 4th edition... I don't agree with it, but do see your point (sort of anyway)

Just a small note here, but after 50+ years, those "settings" will no longer be really all that unique, you have had a full generation growing up with the idea that the NAN and the Tir exists... they will become commonplace...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well I suppose Fudge is pretty cool... and Feng Shui is awesome tastic (and OOP I think), but what did you have in mind?

Definitely Feng Shui for the Win... Am running an absoilutely awesome Star Wars game using this system and every one absolutely loves it over the canon D20 and Saga Editions which are just.... wrong, in my opinion

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Personally I see nWOD as easily being the equal to Fourth Edition (And better in terms of the way Background Merits and Flaws are handled.), and although I personally don't like GURPS ruleset the rules themself seems "more solid" in play. Hell, in it's own limited "niche" even Cancer 4.0 is pretty good in my opinion.

*EDIT*

To expand on my feelings slightly, Fourth Edition's char gen cost it huge points in my eyes, making it easy and fairly painless to reach hard caps is always a really bad idea in my opinion.

In fairness though, you can do the same thing in NWOD if you really want to do so (Hard Caps that is, though it is a bit more "costly" to do so in NWOD)...

My take is if you want to be top of the game, just go straight to Feng Shui... you ARE the HERO of the story, in all its glory... Mooks will fall to your skills like wheat before the Harvester... until you run into a named character that is...

Preferences, I know, but there you go... For the record, I love the NWOD System though, particularly Werewolf, Vampire and Changeling... all awesome games...

Keep the Faith

[tisoz]

Definitely Feng Shui for the Win... Am running an absoilutely awesome Star Wars game using this system and every one absolutely loves it over the canon D20 and Saga Editions which are just.... wrong, in my opinion

Keep the Faith

Wow, the triple post trifecta.

To use the "multiquote" feature, click on the MULTIQUOTE button of each post you wish to quote, then ADDREPLY at the bottom of the page.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wow, the triple post trifecta.

To use the "multiquote" feature, click on the MULTIQUOTE button of each post you wish to quote, then ADDREPLY at the bottom of the page.

Yeah, I always forget about it as I read and reply to individual posts... I need to work on that...

Keeep the Faith

[Stahlseele]

Else, quote complete post, cut from new answer, insert into first answer. i do it that way.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Else, quote complete post, cut from new answer, insert into first answer. i do it that way.

Done it a few times that way as well...

Gotta work on it...

Keep the Faith