Designing vehicles from the ground up?, Wanna build a "Think Tank". Options

[milk ducks]

Was thinking about creating some custom vehicles, and I'm not sure where to start. Unless I'm missing something, I don't think they've provided us with any Fourth Edition rules for creating our own vehicles. I can get a vague image of what I want from cherry picking modifications from Arsenal, but I'm really just guessing on Body, Handling, etc.

Specifically, I'd like to make a heavy ground craft that's got elements of a Ghost In the Shell-esque "Think Tank" (http://tekzilla.deviantart.com/art/Ghost-in-the-shell-tank3-1598913), and maybe a Protoss Dragoon from Starcraft. It needs to be a walker, I don't mind if it's slow and heavy; it makes up for it with armour and weapons platforms. I saw a modification in Arsenal that allows you to place a metahuman brain inside a vehicle, and I like that idea a lot. If not an actual brain, I'd like the tank to have an AI with some personality. Essentially, it'd be used as a vanguard for a Counter-Terrorism unit. Instead of rolling into a Z-Zone with a couple SWAT-type vans, I figure Lonestar could just send in one of these guys.

Drawing a blank on how to actually start putting it together with some valid stats, though.

Any ideas?

-milk.

[Jekolmy]

Well, I think I tried statting something up on my own about a year ago, though I'm not going to search for it right now. Aside from that you could take a steel lynx and increase the size and armor maybe, it looks like it could fit the bill with a different frame, though I'm not sure where I had seen the picture before.

[Marwynn]

I'd just use Arsenal's vehicle mod rules, the trick is finding a good base...

Looking quickly through the books, I see the Chrysler Nissan Patrol-1 car fits the bill for the Walker Mode modification in Arsenal (Body 10 or less). That's 5000¥ on top of the Patrol-1's 22700¥.

Two weapon mounts will add 3000 to that price, firing forward in a 90 degree arc, 10,000 for turret flexibility. You can up the armour of course, I don't think you're gonna bother concealing it. For 2000 you can double the Patrol-1's Armour of 10 to 20.

The Cyborg Adaptation is 15,000¥ but you'll still need to supply the 250k CCU. I suggest just a standard Rigger Adaptation, or turn it into an AI's homenode if you wish. Or buy a Pilot Program for it with Fuzzy Logic.

[Hero]

I'd just use Arsenal's vehicle mod rules, the trick is finding a good base...

Looking quickly through the books, I see the Chrysler Nissan Patrol-1 car fits the bill for the Walker Mode modification in Arsenal (Body 10 or less). That's 5000¥ on top of the Patrol-1's 22700¥.

Two weapon mounts will add 3000 to that price, firing forward in a 90 degree arc, 10,000 for turret flexibility. You can up the armour of course, I don't think you're gonna bother concealing it. For 2000 you can double the Patrol-1's Armour of 10 to 20.

The Cyborg Adaptation is 15,000¥ but you'll still need to supply the 250k CCU. I suggest just a standard Rigger Adaptation, or turn it into an AI's homenode if you wish. Or buy a Pilot Program for it with Fuzzy Logic.

Um... Not really unless your talking about Section 9's AIs. That thing is a lot bigger then a patrol car and will have more body then a lowly little 4 door sedan could ever possibly sport unless it was a stretched armored limo and that be pushing it. Think tanks are large enough and possess enough mass in armor that man-portable AMR's and shoulder fired rocket's just piss it off unless they get the weaker coverage in its armor. and then don't forget the fact that those are very likely to be 25/30mm rotary cannons or chainguns in those forelimbs. My suggestion is if your going with SR4 is use something most GM's I been lucky to play with that is called rational thought. Think it out for a while and when you come to something that makes sense write it down, play test it and if it is broke or to easily broken by your players go back to the drawing board.

[Udoshi]

Honestly, i think what you're looking for is a Steel Lynx. Up the armor, pay the turret slot difference to give it a Reinforced turret mount - possibly an HMG. Fuzzy Logic, a personafix software to simulate a personality, and remove the wireless so it can't be hacked. Additionally, a full mechanical arm.(which can optionally be treated like a cyberlimb with capacity. Give it a grenade launcher with teargas or something)

[EvilP]

A Steel Lynx only has a Body of 4 which puts it around the size of a motorcycle. I think milk ducks is looking for something with 14+ body 16+ armor that can take vehicle weapons like a GE Vigilant Light Autocannon or a GM Light Cannon.

[PBTHHHHT]

Um... Not really unless your talking about Section 9's AIs. That thing is a lot bigger then a patrol car and will have more body then a lowly little 4 door sedan could ever possibly sport unless it was a stretched armored limo and that be pushing it. Think tanks are large enough and possess enough mass in armor that man-portable AMR's and shoulder fired rocket's just piss it off unless they get the weaker coverage in its armor. and then don't forget the fact that those are very likely to be 25/30mm rotary cannons or chainguns in those forelimbs. My suggestion is if your going with SR4 is use something most GM's I been lucky to play with that is called rational thought. Think it out for a while and when you come to something that makes sense write it down, play test it and if it is broke or to easily broken by your players go back to the drawing board.

Ah, the Think tank that was the boss fight in the film? haven't looked at the picture in the original post, at work. yeah, that tank was a bit bigger than the standard tachikomas.
The tank I like most is the second episode of the first season of the ghost in the shell tv, now that was a beast.

[DWC]

So take a Citymaster, give it the Walker Mode modification, slap on a reinforced flexible turret with a heavy autocannon, and call it a day. OH, and chameleon coat it. Really, the game is too abstracted and the vehicle stats are too arbitrary for the game to have vehicle creation rules.

[Marwynn]

Well Walker Modification requires Body 10 or less on Groundcraft, hence the Patrol car. Upping the Armour to 20's good enough too, but yeah you can just wave it all away.

I have no idea what a Think Tank is, just saw a walker vehicle thing with guns.

[DWC]

There are plenty of things in the game that violate the modification rules. Since you'd bbe creating a distinct design for a mass produced military vehicle, using the Citymaster for a baseline, rather than trying to retrofit legs onto a Citymaster, the specifics of the modification rules shouldn't apply.

How about this?

Handling: -2
Accel: 20/40
Speed: 80
Body: 24
Armor: 20
Pilot: 6
Sensors: 4

Walker Mode
Chameleon Coating
2 reinforced flexible weapon mounts w/GE Vanquisher heavy autocannon
Satellite communications
ECM 6
Life Support 2
2 full mechanical arms
*Insert additional random stuff a heavy armored vehicle should have here*

[milk ducks]

Okay, so I sat down with Arsenal this morning and tried to figure out what kinds of modifications a privatized police force would include in a heavy riot control / counter-terrorism tank. As I understand it, vehicles have ModSlots equal to their Body Rating. If that's the case, this thing's Body needs to be almost 40. And I mean, I guess I can see that; this beast needs to basically eat punishment and shit disaster - but even I think that Rating's too high. Maybe you guys could help me out?

Here's what I'm looking at:

Multiple Ammo Bins
Anti-Theft System
Normal Armour
Body Stabilization
Chameleon Coating
ECM
Fuzzy Logic
Improved Sensor Array
Lock-On Countermeasures
Missile Defense System
Satellite Communication
Searchlight
Signature Masking
Smoke Projector
Special Armour Modification, Nonconductivity
Walker Mode x4 *
Normal, External, Flexible Weapon Mount, LMG
Normal, External, Turret Mount, LMG
Reinforced, External, Flexible Weapon Mount, Grenade Launcher

* As Marwynn pointed out, Walker Mode can only be placed on vehicles with 10 Body or less. I figure that's as much weight as two legs can hold, but adding additional Walker Mode modifications should logically increase the maximum Body rating, right? Four modifications (eight legs total) might allow for a possible Body 40 vehicle. If I'm way off on this, please let me know.

How can we make this more workable? I like the modification package, but the Body is just too damn high.

-milk.

[remmus]

I have no idea what a Think Tank is, just saw a walker vehicle thing with guns.

it just what it sounds, a tank with a AI advance enough to act autonomic on it´s own when the pilot needs a second gunner but has no team mates around.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Okay, so I sat down with Arsenal this morning and tried to figure out what kinds of modifications a privatized police force would include in a heavy riot control / counter-terrorism tank. As I understand it, vehicles have ModSlots equal to their Body Rating. If that's the case, this thing's Body needs to be almost 40. And I mean, I guess I can see that; this beast needs to basically eat punishment and shit disaster - but even I think that Rating's too high. Maybe you guys could help me out?

Here's what I'm looking at:

Multiple Ammo Bins
Anti-Theft System
Normal Armour
Body Stabilization
Chameleon Coating
ECM
Fuzzy Logic
Improved Sensor Array
Lock-On Countermeasures
Missile Defense System
Satellite Communication
Searchlight
Signature Masking
Smoke Projector
Special Armour Modification, Nonconductivity
Walker Mode x4 *
Normal, External, Flexible Weapon Mount, LMG
Normal, External, Turret Mount, LMG
Reinforced, External, Flexible Weapon Mount, Grenade Launcher

* As Marwynn pointed out, Walker Mode can only be placed on vehicles with 10 Body or less. I figure that's as much weight as two legs can hold, but adding additional Walker Mode modifications should logically increase the maximum Body rating, right? Four modifications (eight legs total) might allow for a possible Body 40 vehicle. If I'm way off on this, please let me know.

How can we make this more workable? I like the modification package, but the Body is just too damn high.

-milk.

When you are creating a vehicle from the ground up, you do not need to follow the modification rules, Modifications are for after market vehicles... I would make it a 4,6, or 8 leg walker (If I remember right, the GITS Tank had 4?) and then build your frame around it... use the Citymaster Stats, and try not to worry about the Body=Mod Slots issue, Mod slots only count for ADDITIONAL equipment that is added after Production... Give it the equipment that you want it to have baseline (Chameleon Coating, Armor, Turrets, Weapons and Ammo Bins, etc) and go on from there...

Keep the Faith

[Marwynn]

it just what it sounds, a tank with a AI advance enough to act autonomic on it´s own when the pilot needs a second gunner but has no team mates around.

So... a high-rating Pilot Program with an autosoft and Fuzzy Logic?

milk, just build it from the ground up. It walks on legs integrally, and those things aren't really mods. I know you're using it as a guideline to determine Body, but I think you can fudge it to Body 18-20.

[remmus]

So... a high-rating Pilot Program with an autosoft and Fuzzy Logic?

milk, just build it from the ground up. It walks on legs integrally, and those things aren't really mods. I know you're using it as a guideline to determine Body, but I think you can fudge it to Body 18-20.

well close but as I understand it to get a tank as smart as in the Ghost in the Shell anime (consider they spend of duty time as much going threw maintence as having deep debates about there existence and what a soul is) to work in shadowrun you need to make it cyborg compatible and throw in a loyal clone brain into that tank.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

well close but as I understand it to get a tank as smart as in the Ghost in the Shell anime (consider they spend of duty time as much going threw maintence as having deep debates about there existence and what a soul is) to work in shadowrun you need to make it cyborg compatible and throw in a loyal clone brain into that tank.

Apples and Oranges... A rating 6 Pilot with Fuzzy Logic and High Rated Autosofts with some additional program enhancements would work just fine in my opinion... hell you may even be able to get by with a rating 5 pilot there...

Keep the Faith

[milk ducks]

Thought about this a lot while I was at work today. I'm thinking of calling it CIRCUIT (Counter-Insurgency / Riot Control Unit). Who are the most likely manufacturers? Ares, for use in Knight-Errant? Seems unlikely that Lonestar could pull together the resources to create something like this.

-milk.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Definately an Ares innovation, Everyone else has pointed out that when building from the ground up you do not have to follow the rules for modification so I'll point out something a little more out there, as GM it is your right to make decisions on anything not explicitly covered in the RAW, if you wanted you could state larger vehicles can take the Walker modification at double or even triple the cost due to the difficulty of reinforcing the frame and potentially adding more legs. After all, a good group will always throw something at you you hadn't considered, it's only fair to return the favor.

[MikeKozar]

I wish there was a good vehicle supplement - I think some of the old FASA splatbooks had stats for Main Battle Tanks and other milspec hardware. You are talking about making a pretty significant shift in the loadouts of heavy responders in your world. I like anime as much as the next guy, but I do *not* want to be quietly minding my own business and have a dozen Tachikomas break through the wall shouting 'Drop that slimy corporate executive, valued metahuman customer!'

If you were going to add significant heavy insectiod Shirow-style mech drones, you should probably roll up three or four models that are sold to security and military units. I'd make a dog-sized, a volkswagon-sized, and a MBT-sized version. Make the mobility upgrade stock; give them four 'legs' and a pair of arms with a weapon mount. Offer standard upgrades with the Chameleon Coat and Gecko tips to get the wall-climbing functionality.

You'd have to make a new set of rules, since Drones are limited to Body 5 - call these Vehicular or Military Drones, and give them Body 8, 16, or 24 (for your super-heavy tank). The lack of mod slots shouldn't be a huge issue once the legs and arms are stock. I think there are rules somewhere about heavy armor deducting from mobility - if there's not, you and your GM should decide on a reasonable compromise between speed and protection.

The key here is going to be game balance - the drone should cost as much or more then a vehicle/drone with similar power, and really hard to steal.

[The Overlord]

Back in 3rd Edition there was a full guide in Rigger 3 i believe that covered how to make something, be it drone or vehicle, from the ground up. I haven't read the whole thing since it is so darn wordy, but it could help. I am actually in the process of coming up with my own rule set/guidelines for creating custom drones for 4e; though in the end I may just adapt most of the old system to be 4e friendly.

[Udoshi]

One thing you guys might want to look up is arsenals OVERmodding rules. More or less, it becomes a little bit harder to put the mod on, costs double or so, and bumps the facility requirements up a level.

Looking at the above list, Satcom, Smoke, Ammo bins are very cheap to over mod in, and make total sense to be able to cram in if you have a facility to work with.

[milk ducks]

You are talking about making a pretty significant shift in the loadouts of heavy responders in your world. I like anime as much as the next guy, but I do *not* want to be quietly minding my own business and have a dozen Tachikomas break through the wall shouting 'Drop that slimy corporate executive, valued metahuman customer!'

To be totally honest, I'm not a huge anime fan; I just think that heavy, armoured, riot control tanks are something that would exist in the Sixth World. I mean, Shadowrunners can be pretty stiff competition even for privatized, mil-spec police forces. Lonestar invented Jazz just to keep up with, and even the playing field against, chromed-out street samurai. Just from a PR standpoint, why send your officers into the line of fire against crazy-elite-cyber-criminals when you can pour your earnings into R&D for some kind of ... well, heavilly armoured riot control tank?

And don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about Tachikomas. I'm talking about actual tank-sized counter-insurgency vehicles. These things don't roll in by the dozen and lay waste to corporate offices; one of them might work as the vanguard for a special operations team within a city.

-milk.

[Neowulf]

I miss having a rigger book... They teased me with making things wireless and better integrated, so you don't have to spend 5 essence just to rig a vehicle, then dumb vehicles down to drones and afterthoughts with seats...


I'm working on a set of rule mods for vehicles myself. Bring back actual fuel and economy, rules for designing new base vehicles, errata for the stock vehicles (bust-a-move has arms, is stated to be able to steal from stores, and yet is only a walker with no arms listed?).
Won't get anywhere near as indepth as the previous vehicle rules, but it'll make me happy atleast. I'll post what I come up with, see how people like em.

[3278]

Back in 3rd Edition there was a full guide in Rigger 3 i believe that covered how to make something, be it drone or vehicle, from the ground up.

Boy, there sure was. There sure was. Not anymore, though. Lots of rules for modifying vehicles - none of them, unfortunately, any better than the SR3 modifications, which were many of them fairly ridiculous, no matter how I enjoyed them - but absolutely nothing about creating new ones. You either make it up and hope for the best, or modify one of the very few vehicle types they've bothered to create.

I know not everyone laments the absence of vehicle creation rules in SR4, but I've made dozens - probably over 100 - vehicles with the SR2 and SR3 creation rules, and I can tell you the absence of vehicle creation rules is one of the things about SR4 that I hate the most. Most people, as I understand it, feel the opposite.

My name is 32, and I play riggers, and I think SR4 forgot about me.