Do Internal Suppressor modifications need to be replaced? Options

[milk ducks]

I understand that Sound Suppressor accessories need to be replaced every 300 rounds, but do Internal Suppressor modifications from Arsenal also have to be replaced every so often? Just curious.

-milk.

[MikeKozar]

I understand that Sound Suppressor accessories need to be replaced every 300 rounds, but do Internal Suppressor modifications from Arsenal also have to be replaced every so often? Just curious.

-milk.

Hmm. I don't see an actual rule.

It would make sense for the internal version to be more durable then the screw-on version, so I would probably allow it to be permanent. On the other hand, if I were keeping track of wear-and-tear on weapon accessories, this becomes kind of an 'easy out' for players who don't want to deal with it. If it was that sort of campaign, you could figure out how much more expensive the integral version was and use that as a multiplier (e.g. 4x the cost, so 1200 rounds).

It's all up to how much recordkeeping you want to do, in my opinion.

[Saint Sithney]

Well, fitting something like that into a weapon's design would require a baffle stack that would have to run throughout the interior of the gun to actually be able to handle the gas load. And to keep the gun from heating up so much a guy couldn't hold it, you'd have to make it out of something like ceramic. So, you can infer that whatever it's made from, you can clean it out with common solvents like acetone rather than replacing the whole thing.

Really an internal silencer would mess up the rifling so much that the gun would shoot like garbage. So, how about we just agree that it works on magic and therefore doesn't have to worry about damage from repeated use. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Ayeohx]

Could try to Google it. I'm at work; don't think they want me looking for silenced weaponry... may give them the wrong idea.

[flext]

I always just assumed "Internal" suppressors were just integrated into the firearm, like an MP5SD.

[Shrike30]

I'd just charge the player for "replacement parts" equal in cost to a suppressor.

I've run through that 300 round life in a single evening of play with an AR; suppressive fire especially lets you burn through them stupidly fast, if you're doing a lot of it, and it's not uncommon for someone at our table to announce something like "I run off the rest of the magazine at them as part of my Full Defense;" no game effect, just looks cool (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I can understand where most games really wouldn't need to track that, through.

[Zombayz]

An internal suppressor will last far, far, FAR longer than an external one. the VS Val(and it's sniper version, the VSS Vintorez) are good examples of this.

Quick edit: There are quite a few more, but I'm to lazy to remember them. Check http://world.guns.ru/ and you'll find some more.

[the_real_elwood]

All firearms are going to need some standard maintenance (springs, buffers, seals and whatnot), so for an internally suppressed firearm where the suppressor is integrated, some internal replacement pieces for the suppressor would be all that's required. Theoretically, you could repair an external suppressor by getting some new baffles and whatnot, and just keeping the old suppressor can, but it's not really worth the time and effort. The cost of a suppressor is pretty piddly change anyways, so I wouldn't really worry about it, but then I wouldn't worry about charging a character with an external suppressor for replacing it either. If you really must, just charge the character with the integrally suppressed weapon the new suppressor cost every 300 rounds.

[Paul]

Unless it served a story telling purpose I wouldn't abuse this. Using this can be a pain in the ass. Of course some people are fine with adding this to the mix.

[Ed_209a]

Really an internal silencer would mess up the rifling so much that the gun would shoot like garbage. So, how about we just agree that it works on magic and therefore doesn't have to worry about damage from repeated use. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That would be a big surprise to Heckler & Koch and Sterling Armaments. Both of them made very popular suppressed firearms. Firearms that shoot like garbage are rarely popular. Actually, suppressed firearms tend to be more accurate, since the suppressor creates a smoother pressure drop as the bullet leaves the barrel. No magic needed, only careful machining.

Well, fitting something like that into a weapon's design would require a baffle stack that would have to run throughout the interior of the gun to actually be able to handle the gas load.

Suppressors don't need to go any farther back on the weapon than the beginning of the barrel.

And to keep the gun from heating up so much a guy couldn't hold it, you'd have to make it out of something like ceramic.

You won't need to do anything unusual to handle the heat. The same kind of hand guard used in lots of rifles will do just fine.

Check out the Wiki article on Suppressors. It is pretty good.

[Ed_209a]

Really, the whole concept of a suppressor wearing out is way out of date. Suppressors used to use rubber, leather or plastic pieces (called wipes), and those would wear out after a few-to-few dozen rounds. That is where the idea of suppressors always wearing out after 1 mag, always affecting accuracy, and always reducing damage came from. All that was true for wipe-based suppressors. Really, it's like saying all computers are hot, bulky and unreliable because vacuum tube computers were in the 50s.

Most suppressors today use baffles, where nothing ever touches the bullet. Nothing to slow down the bullet, or knock it off course.

Today, suppressors with wipes are a little quieter than those without, but it is rarely worth it for the shortened lifespan.

Bump it forward to the 2070s, and suppressors might be smart enough to adjust themselves on the fly to optimize for ammo type, air temp, air pressure, etc. Today, the best suppressors can reduce noise by 40dB. In SR4 time, everyday suppressors might hit 50+ dB!

[Saint Sithney]

Aye, aye. There are guns with integrated suppressors, but they were designed that way. In SR, we're taking about an aftermarket add-on which doesn't increase the size of the gun since it doesn't change the concealibility modifier.

Can you imagine fitting an internal silencer into a Walther palm pistol? Or any CC pistol for that manner. Ridiculous.
Need to still have some pipe left after the gas vents out and when you're talking about maybe 2 inches of barrel, you've got no room left for rifling.

[Shrike30]

That might be why holdouts can't accept accessories. I can't remember if you can modify them or not, though.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That might be why holdouts can't accept accessories. I can't remember if you can modify them or not, though.

ALL Firearms have 6 Modification Slots

[Tachi]

Where does it say you have to replace a suppressor after 300 rounds?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Where does it say you have to replace a suppressor after 300 rounds?

Page 322, SR4A under the heading for Sound Suppressor
Silencers are not held to this rule (See their entry as well)...

[kzt]

An internal suppressor will last far, far, FAR longer than an external one. the VS Val(and it's sniper version, the VSS Vintorez) are good examples of this.

Quick edit: There are quite a few more, but I'm to lazy to remember them. Check http://world.guns.ru/ and you'll find some more.

It doesn't matter. A well made suppressor will outlast the barrel, with only minimal maintenance. None of this replacing parts. Nobody uses wipes any more. Particularly in the US, as they now are legally each a suppressor and unless you have a license to manufacture suppressors just owning spare wipes (or any other suppressor internal parts) will get you sent to jail.

But they do get hot. http://www.surefire.com/suppressors_articles_science_intro

"Suppressors get hot. Alabama pavement hot. White hot, glowing like molten metal hot. Using a high-speed digital camera, SureFire engineers photographed a prototype suppressor glowing white-hot to the point that you could see the baffles through the steel exterior tube."
....
"We've put 1,500 rounds through a suppressor in 30 round bursts, just speed reload after speed reload. We broke the first M4 we tested like this on the fifteenth consecutive magazine, so we took the suppressor off, stuck it on another M4 and kept on with the test. Basically, we wrecked two guns and the suppressor had absolutely nothing wrong with it."

[Ed_209a]

Well, in general I wonder if the team that wrote that part of Arsenal has ever seen the innards of any firearm.

Regarding an aftermarket integral suppressor, given a competent gunsmith, it really depends on the weapon. All you need is to have most of the barrel exposed. I can picture how you would do it for the modern AR-15/M16, which is probably the conceptual inspiration for the modular weapons of SR4.

For example, the M23 assault rifle from Arsenal. Remove the front sight and handgrip, rework the gas tube/piston (if any), and you can tap the barrel and assemble the baffle stack around it. More likely, the user would purchase a replacement barrel and integral suppressor as a single unit.

Most semiauto handguns could not take an integral suppressor, because the slide that surrounds the barrel is a vital part of the action. You would have to mout an extended barrel, then mount an integral suppressor on that, which defeats the entire purpose.

A revolver would be an ideal candidate, since the entire barrel is exposed. Too bad about that cylinder gap.

In SR, we're taking about an aftermarket add-on which doesn't increase the size of the gun since it doesn't change the concealibility modifier.

Can you imagine fitting an internal silencer into a Walther palm pistol? Or any CC pistol for that manner. Ridiculous.
Need to still have some pipe left after the gas vents out and when you're talking about maybe 2 inches of barrel, you've got no room left for rifling.

You always have room for rifling. When you picture gas vents in this context, think little pinholes, not the huge holes you might see at the end of a barrel for recoil management. Anyway, with a holdout, your ammo is probably subsonic already, so you don't need barrel vents. So, you end up with a 2" barrel sheathed in a 2.5" suppressor.

[kzt]

Well, in general I wonder if the team that wrote that part of Arsenal has ever seen the innards of any firearm.

Sure, but it doesn't end there. I'd argue that nobody involved in writing the combat rules for SR4 has actually ever been taught how to use a firearm. They may have fired a few rounds, but they don't understand how to use them or care to learn.

[Tachi]

Page 322, SR4A under the heading for Sound Suppressor
Silencers are not held to this rule (See their entry as well)...

Suppressors wearing out after 300 rounds... How odd. I think I'll have to ignore that rule entirely.

It doesn't matter. A well made suppressor will outlast the barrel, with only minimal maintenance. None of this replacing parts. Nobody uses wipes any more. Particularly in the US, as they now are legally each a suppressor and unless you have a license to manufacture suppressors just owning spare wipes (or any other suppressor internal parts) will get you sent to jail.

But they do get hot. http://www.surefire.com/suppressors_articles_science_intro

"Suppressors get hot. Alabama pavement hot. White hot, glowing like molten metal hot. Using a high-speed digital camera, SureFire engineers photographed a prototype suppressor glowing white-hot to the point that you could see the baffles through the steel exterior tube."
....
"We've put 1,500 rounds through a suppressor in 30 round bursts, just speed reload after speed reload. We broke the first M4 we tested like this on the fifteenth consecutive magazine, so we took the suppressor off, stuck it on another M4 and kept on with the test. Basically, we wrecked two guns and the suppressor had absolutely nothing wrong with it."

^^What kzt said.^^ I'm looking at an advertisement for Advanced-Armament suppressors right now that says they're "Designed and Built for Full Auto, Guaranteed for 100,000 Rounds." Yeah, that's right, one-hundred thousand rounds. So, uh, yeah, definitely ignoring that rule, in fact I think I already did and then forgot about it, otherwise, I'd think I would have remembered something that unbelievably stupid.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure, but it doesn't end there. I'd argue that nobody involved in writing the combat rules for SR4 has actually ever been taught how to use a firearm. They may have fired a few rounds, but they don't understand how to use them or care to learn.

That is a lot of assumptions there KZT...

Shadowrun was never meant to be a simulator system... it has combat rules that are relatively quick and compact... that is all you really need... any attempt to simulate real life would drag teh game into total boredom for the vast majority of players...

I have spent a lot of time in combat, combat training and at the range... I have probably fired, in my lifetime, close to a million rounds of ammunition, on probably 30 different weapon platforms, at targets both living and non-living... I would NEVER play a game that attempted to simulate all of the tedious minutae of real combat...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[Tachi]

Sure, but it doesn't end there. I'd argue that nobody involved in writing the combat rules for SR4 has actually ever been taught how to use a firearm. They may have fired a few rounds, but they don't understand how to use them or care to learn.

QFT. If I had the money I'd build a shoot-house, fly all the Devs to where I live and let them fire off a few thousand rounds each to better familiarize them with the reality of firearms. This is recockulous.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

QFT. If I had the money I'd build a shoot-house, fly all the Devs to where I live and let them fire off a few thousand rounds each to better familiarize them with the reality of firearms. This is recockulous.

Everyone has to have an opinion I guess...

Keep the Faith

[Tachi]

Everyone has to have an opinion I guess...

Keep the Faith

Oh, how cute, a semi-polite dismissal instead of stating why we're wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

*Note, I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm actually curious why you think anyone with an actual knowledge of firearms would ever write such a stupid rule. I'm not talking about game mechanics or turning SR into a combat simulator, just getting rid of some of the unrealistic rules based on guesses and misunderstandings instead of reality. Five minutes talking to you, me, or anyone else with ANY understanding of firearms design (or maybe just using Google) could have prevented many of the arguments stupid rules like this cause. Which doesn't mean Dumpshockers wouldn't have found something else to argue about, but that's a whole other topic.*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh, how cute, a semi-polite dismissal instead of stating why we're wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

*Note, I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm actually curious why you think anyone with an actual knowledge of firearms would ever write such a stupid rule. I'm not talking about game mechanics or turning SR into a combat simulator, just getting rid of some of the unrealistic rules based on guesses and misunderstandings instead of reality. Five minutes talking to you, me, or anyone else with ANY understanding of firearms design (or maybe just using Google) could have prevented many of the arguments stupid rules like this cause. Which doesn't mean Dumpshockers wouldn't have found something else to argue about, but that's a whole other topic.*

Not everyone is going to have an in-depth knowledge of a real life situation (in this case... Weapons and Advanced Combat, in all its permutations) to make informed choices when designing rules... not everyone is going to perform in-depth research to figure it out either... some designers just look at Hollywood, or Honk Kong Movies, and decide, hey, that is how I want my game to flow... it is a choice on the designers part to do such... There are a lot of things that they could have done differently, but they chose not to do so... that is their right... I have played some games that take combat to provide several orders of magnitude of realism over Shadowrun... I don't play those games anymore because the combat rules tended to be very agonizing...

Now, I tend to get fairly bent out of shape when a game developer does such things, because I happen to have extensive knowledge of firearms, tactics, and combat... however, I generally tend to just ignore the inconsistencies because I am aware that the game is not meant to be a realistic combat simulator, and that it is truly not realistic to expect such a thing from a game company...

Such rules would drag out combat to such an extreme bit of boredom that I am happy that most game systems do not go that route... do I still complain from time to time, of Course... but is it really worth it in the end? Rarely...

Shadowrun has a fairly easy method of processing combat and all of its myriad intricacies, boiling it down to some fairly simple mechanics... there are other games that flow better in my opinion (Feng Shui for example) but for what it does it gives grit and cinematic actions a chance... could it be fixed... maybe, but it would lose a lot of its appeal with the increasing complications that would be required to fix it completely...

Hope this explains my position a bit... I could probably go on for many pages, but in the end it really is not worth all the work to give us a completely simulationist game... I prefer fun to tedium myself...

Keep the Faith