IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Thinking About 'The Box', Roleplaying with Game Theory
Drraagh
post Oct 24 2009, 07:48 AM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 308
Joined: 1-June 06
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Member No.: 8,631



I saw a trailer for 'The Box' today and it got me thinking about how a storyline like that could work. The trailer is linked here, and given what I've seen of it, I can see how that would predictably play out as a movie, but it was more the idea of Game Theory. I don't know how many of you know about Game Theory but the idea of it is basically predicting the best solution to various scenarios for all the players involved. It's used in various fields ranging from economics (figuring out who to loan money to, for example) to psychology (predicting how people are going to act), and the list goes on.

But basically, the question comes about how to apply it to a Shadowrun setting. I was thinking at first something like The Game. which was an interesting Michael Douglas movie and in and of itself would make a good run. But the problem is, exactly how do you get the players to play. When you're dealing with people who have guns and are career criminals, shooting at things that scare them is more likely than playing along. Or, they'll go to ground, or even do a run on the people running this Game.

It was after a bit of searching, I found Add a Touch of Original Game Theory to Spice Up Your RPG! and found it to be quite interesting. There was a PDF writeup I found of the prisoner's dilemma and its feature in Knights of the Old Republic, but it didn't really do much other than consider that the choice of prisoner you're pitted against making changes in your thinking. If you don't know the Prisoner's Dilemma, the idea is you and another person are caught. If you both remain quiet, you get little to no punishment, but one turns on the other and the other is quiet, the one who was quiet goes to prison and the other one goes scot free. And if they both turn on each other, they get intermediate prison sentences. The best approach is for both to be quiet, but depending on who you're with, can you trust the other person to think about your safety at the same level as theirs?

Now, that Game Theory link gives an interesting example using the cake cutting theory. The idea is how to divide up resources so that each person involved believes they got a fair amount while the divisions may not be exact. Numb3rs did an example of this in its season 3 episode "One Hour", where one person may like icing more than the other, so cutting the cake in half horizontally works better than vertical. You can do the same with your players by maybe giving them a choice of a bunch of things, but they get only to choose a certain amount and it must be fair for both parties. Imagine a deal with an NPC that way; "I'll take the gun, you can have the vehicle, but I'll take these chemicals and you can have the database files." Maybe your NPC would rather have the chemicals than anything, and would give the character the vehicle in exchange for the chemicals. But does the player want the vehicle? How important are the chemicals to him? Etc. The comments of the article also give some cool examples.

Back to the Box. Looking at the problem presented; "You press the button, somewhere, someone in the world, whom you don't know, dies and you will get money", it doesn't seem so bad. I personally took the 'Whom you don't know' to mean you don't know who it will be that dies as opposed to 'Someone you don't know in the world dies'. The part about not pushing the button is answered by the line "There are always consequences", which would mean that just walking away is not an option either because things will happen. Let's say it came down to this: "You have a button. If you press it, someone dies and you get money. If you don't press it, someone may die but you don't get money." Rather than making the not pressing it a certainty, you are now weighing the 'Do I have the ability to take someone's life from them', instead of 'Someone's going to die, I may as well get my money from it'.

There are some links to courses and other materials about Game Theory in the RPG link I posted earlier and they have some good stuff, but this entry gives a great breakdown of the different type of games in game theory and maybe some people can come up with ways to make it work for them. I like the idea because it makes the players think rather than just acting. If you've got white hat runners, the social games could work by making them decide choices like 'You can save one person, one is a child, the other is <insert specialist here, maybe a world class doctor, maybe a genius who could bring about world peace, or even just some powerful NPC>.', it makes it a question of 'Is the service that the grownup can offer right now better than the possibility of what the child might become? It has been done multiple times I can think of, and it can be a test of a person's character, do they want betterment right now (IE, saving a rich CEO and getting him to give you money or a favor or whatever), or saving a child and planting a possible seed for the future (It is possible the kid could grow up to be a mass-murderer or the like but we don't know that at the time).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Draco18s
post Oct 24 2009, 09:23 AM
Post #2


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,289
Joined: 2-October 08
Member No.: 16,392



I remember watching The Game, and to make it work in ShadowRun is trivial. You take away the guns. Any gun the characters CAN get their hands on is a fake (either doesn't work or shoots something harmless, but appears to have the desired effect).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jake
post Oct 24 2009, 01:31 PM
Post #3


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,849
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 872



I've tried these scenarios in RPGs before and inevitably it degenerates into PCs repeatedly hitting the button, making cash register sounds each time.

No, seriously. If they play the game for a bit of a escapism then its almost understandable that many PCs would have no empathy or a regard for an NPC they've never met. The level of abstraction from another individual's circumstance is even more remote than for anyone in real life if they were confronted with this question. You can almost forgive them for hitting the button.

BTW, equilibrium theory only applies when you assume all players are playing optimally. That's not always the case.

- J.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Drraagh
post Oct 24 2009, 02:40 PM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 308
Joined: 1-June 06
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Member No.: 8,631



QUOTE (The Jake @ Oct 24 2009, 08:31 AM) *
I've tried these scenarios in RPGs before and inevitably it degenerates into PCs repeatedly hitting the button, making cash register sounds each time.

No, seriously. If they play the game for a bit of a escapism then its almost understandable that many PCs would have no empathy or a regard for an NPC they've never met. The level of abstraction from another individual's circumstance is even more remote than for anyone in real life if they were confronted with this question. You can almost forgive them for hitting the button.


Here's the thing.... Who can say its not themselves or an NPC Contact or family member or even one of the other PCs. It's someone, you don't know who, is going to die. Meaning, if the PCs don't push the button, they may die. If they do, then people will be armed to the teeth to take them out. For some, I suppose.. That's Monday.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Khyron
post Oct 25 2009, 01:35 AM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 181
Joined: 8-July 09
From: The Caribbean League
Member No.: 17,367



The Button's been done several times with different endings. Wiki it up.

What would be more interesting would be to play the Button from the other side. The team works for this faceless group and gets their orders to kill a certain someone.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
flext
post Oct 25 2009, 08:58 AM
Post #6


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 19
Joined: 25-January 07
From: Duluth, MN
Member No.: 10,775



I think it could be an interesting character development point. Depending on the group you have you could get some intense RP out of it. I can pretty much say that one group of characters I play with would be using it like a push button ATM. Another group o f characters however I could say they would really sit and weigh out the moral consequences of their action. I think you really have to look at your players and see how they would react. I think in my current game the player would think a little bit. Of course out of the six characters only two have any type of combat skill at all.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jake
post Oct 25 2009, 10:55 AM
Post #7


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,849
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 872



QUOTE (Drraagh @ Oct 24 2009, 02:40 PM) *
Here's the thing.... Who can say its not themselves or an NPC Contact or family member or even one of the other PCs. It's someone, you don't know who, is going to die. Meaning, if the PCs don't push the button, they may die. If they do, then people will be armed to the teeth to take them out. For some, I suppose.. That's Monday.


Perhaps its reflective that I play with utter psychopaths? Then again, could be poor roleplayers? Who knows.

I do know however that my player's are taking liberal advantage of a game system that lacks the concept of alignments.

- J.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 25 2009, 04:29 PM
Post #8


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,568
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (The Jake @ Oct 25 2009, 04:55 AM) *
Perhaps its reflective that I play with utter psychopaths? Then again, could be poor roleplayers? Who knows.

I do know however that my player's are taking liberal advantage of a game system that lacks the concept of alignments.

- J.



Do they have any codes at all?
Even the majority of hardened criminals have a point which they will not cross...


Keep the Faith
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LurkerOutThere
post Oct 25 2009, 06:25 PM
Post #9


Runner
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,946
Joined: 1-June 09
From: Omaha
Member No.: 17,234



QUOTE (Drraagh @ Oct 24 2009, 09:40 AM) *
Here's the thing.... Who can say its not themselves or an NPC Contact or family member or even one of the other PCs. It's someone, you don't know who, is going to die. Meaning, if the PCs don't push the button, they may die. If they do, then people will be armed to the teeth to take them out. For some, I suppose.. That's Monday.


I think most of the players/PC's i run for would not appreciate this sort of scenario at all. Most of my guys and gals run from the "we run the shadows for the freedom it brings" mentality so anyone trying to get them in such a situation would find themselves on the receiving end of the teams collective firepower. Furthermore I have a couple who play characters who will not kill unless directly threatened or the target really really needs to die. THey would assume anyone who wants to kill someone because they walked away from a switch would fall into that category.

In other words, I have never found game theory all that fascinating and it really only works in dramatis where everything, even the characters actions can be controlled to fit the needs of the story. As I play shadowrun very realistic I don't think that this sort of measure would be well recieved by my players, nor very realistic.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Drraagh
post Oct 25 2009, 11:22 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 308
Joined: 1-June 06
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Member No.: 8,631



QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Oct 25 2009, 01:25 PM) *
I think most of the players/PC's i run for would not appreciate this sort of scenario at all. Most of my guys and gals run from the "we run the shadows for the freedom it brings" mentality so anyone trying to get them in such a situation would find themselves on the receiving end of the teams collective firepower. Furthermore I have a couple who play characters who will not kill unless directly threatened or the target really really needs to die. THey would assume anyone who wants to kill someone because they walked away from a switch would fall into that category.

In other words, I have never found game theory all that fascinating and it really only works in dramatis where everything, even the characters actions can be controlled to fit the needs of the story. As I play shadowrun very realistic I don't think that this sort of measure would be well recieved by my players, nor very realistic.


I will agree Game Theory can't always work in every group, but at the same time, don't think about how to use game theory to manipulate your players into something, think about ways that it can be used to predict behaviour and decision making for NPCs and build some runs around it. Like the example the Game Theory in RPG article used:

QUOTE
For example, with the cake cutting game the secret is to have many resources in the same area that are valued in different ways by different groups. In a fantasy setting this could be a wooded valley with a large stream and some natural caves. Elves might want to claim the valley as part of their homeland because the woods are ancient and some of the trees might be suitable habitats for their families, a human kingdom might claim the valley because it wants the stream to help irrigate farmer’s crops with, and a clan of dwarves claims the valley because they suspect that the caves may have rich iron ore veins within them.

Now how hard is it to have these three groups on the brink of war because they all are unwilling to negotiate with each other for fear of losing that which they value the most? What if the adventure is that the PCs must somehow “cut the cake” in a way that keeps all three groups happy? What if a fourth party that wants a war to erupt causes problems for the PCs? You need only to set the pieces in place upon the board and the let players’ decisions do the rest.


Another is
QUOTE
Convoy vs. U-Boats. The convoy wants to get as many ships as possible from point A to point B. The u-boats want to prevent this. You can either sail straight across the ocean or take a longer route to the north. If you take the northern route, you’ll lose some ships to ice bergs and storms so you’d rather go direct. Except the u-boats know you want to go direct so they’re more likely to be waiting there. Should the u-boats split their forces and have a weak ambush along both routes or try to guess and have a killer ambush in one place. Again, this could easily be adapted to a game setting.


Those are ways for Game Theory to be used without putting players on the spot and manipulating them into the outcome you want. I actually had been in a game where one player considered the 'Cost-Benefit' of a situation where they would end up pissing one group off and making friends with another, and was trying to think about how to make the most of it for all sides involved, but get the biggest return for himself.

I used the Box as an example of Game Theory because that was what inspired me into this decision to see about getting it to work. A way of seeing a lot of applied theory like that is in the TV show Numb3rs, some of the examples are on the internet. Also, in a Beautiful Mind, they had an example of how Game Theory applies to dating. An economics class video class had another example of that, showing how by certain actions you can manipulate your ranking in a dating pool. There's lots of examples that play upon the human mind to evaluate problems and find solutions. What about doing the reverse, and creating a problem for people to solve? That's why, in the Star Wars KotOR post I found, the game theory had some problems in the eyes of the writer.

They were comparing the Prisoner's Dilemma, using the main character and the Wookie who swore a life debt to him. If no one talks, they get six month. If he talks but the other doesn't, he goes free and the other one goes to jail for a long period. If both talk, they go to jail for a medium time. For the game, the correct choice was to be selfish and blab, while for the player, both when thinking it through as a good person and a selfish evil person, they concluded the best choice was to say nothing. They would get the most out of the Wookie with his life debt and could trust him not to say anything, because it would put his friend in danger thus invaliding the debt.

There were also some articles I found, and some refererences in other entries, how in a lot of 'free choice' games where you can be good or evil, there's usually a lot more benefit to being good, at least when dealing with other people. More conversation choices are unlocked, more content becomes available, sometimes, you can even find a way to avoid combat for equal or even sometimes more rewards. Evil is either pushed to the extreme to make it into a clearcut choice or just made to be 'funny'. I remember a similar discussion in Star Wars RPG where certain force powers automatically gave Dark Side points even if being used for good reasons and not in a way that directly brought harm to anyone, but because the makers of the game felt this was an evil power and all uses should be evil too.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nezumi
post Oct 26 2009, 02:55 PM
Post #11


Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,546
Joined: 24-October 03
From: DeeCee, U.S.
Member No.: 5,760



Like Drragh said, choosing between one side or another is the most common application of game theory (made more complex when you can't easily quantify what one party or another brings to the table).

If you want to construct one, consider this...

The party is hired to break into a computer system and steal a code. They will then give the code to person Abel, and escort him to a secret military bunker where he will use his own passcode to open the bunker and steal all the valuable goods inside. Able gets the gear, the party gets 10% in a paycheck (pretty standard). Of course, they're told none of this, and definitely not told that the code they got is half of the access code, with Abel knowing the other half.

As the party is approaching Abel to sell their half of the code, the meet is interrupted and they flee. They realize they have this code and what it's worth. The third party gets in touch with them to negotiate a deal. Abel may or may not be captured.

The party can...
1) Assume Able won't talk, won't share his code, or how to get their half. They can meet up with Abel later and sell their half for more/torture Abel for his half and take ALL the loot.
2) Assume Abel will spill the beans, making their half of the code worthless (because the third party will get their first)
3) Sell their half for a lesser, but guaranteed payout.
4) I don't know. Rocks fall. Something happens and the run fails to go through. No one profits.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Draco18s
post Nov 4 2009, 12:59 AM
Post #12


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,289
Joined: 2-October 08
Member No.: 16,392



I think I unintentionally figured out how you might be able to go about a campaign that works the way you want it to, even if the players aren't very good role players.
Note, this will not be easy.

Step 1: Find something that your players and their characters would never do (eg. collect the parts and build a nuclear bomb in downtown Seattle)

Step 2: Find something that your players and their characters would not want to have happen to them (this is the hardest step, you have to find something that the players will want to actively avoid--something that doesn't cause numbers to change on the character's sheet, but doesn't disturb the player isn't going to work--the player can shrug it off, even if their character would likely not. The best example I can give which should get the job done is a page or three of elf/troll gay porn written in as lurid detail as possible: the player has to listen to you read it, the character is watching trideo of it)

Step 3: Break down step 1 into very small steps, keep as much information as possible out of the character's knowledge (and thereby the player's). The ideal solution is where each step of the game is one that is harder to take than the last, and always more preferable to the punishment (object of step 2). Each step should close the metaphorical walls in on the players such that escape from the game is harder, to the point at which they face the choice of an impossible escape rife with punishment (step 2) or complete the game (step 1).

Step 4: Laugh maniacally. You have successfully gotten your players to do something unthinkable and you didn't have to do anything but lead the way.



I ended up figuring this out after having read a story version of The Game. I will admit that it was porn based and not in my usual tastes, but there was a grain of something there that made me curious and so I read on--that grain turned out to be The Game: everything was contrived, controlled, and planned to perfection. Being able to see each step written out part by part and watching the character's mind break down as he obeys the instructions of his captor revealed what it is that allows for a The Game type plot to be used anywhere.

The hard part is figuring out what the punishment for not playing along is. For something like shadowrun, you can't use anything that effects the character's sheet, as the player won't have the same connection to that punishment (eg. taser shocks). At the same time, it can't be a morals thing, as most runners are so amoral that attempting to find some line in the sand, the player will cross it if it suits them (and won't feel the guilt).

If gay troll/elf porn won't do it for your players, you might have to grit your teeth and look up some furry lemons.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
toturi
post Nov 4 2009, 02:57 AM
Post #13


Canon Companion
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 8,021
Joined: 2-March 03
From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG
Member No.: 4,187



QUOTE (Draco18s @ Nov 4 2009, 08:59 AM) *
The hard part is figuring out what the punishment for not playing along is. For something like shadowrun, you can't use anything that effects the character's sheet, as the player won't have the same connection to that punishment (eg. taser shocks). At the same time, it can't be a morals thing, as most runners are so amoral that attempting to find some line in the sand, the player will cross it if it suits them (and won't feel the guilt).

If gay troll/elf porn won't do it for your players, you might have to grit your teeth and look up some furry lemons.

The point is that most players will go along for nearly all of Step 1 and then abruptly turn around and make you enjoy part 2 over and over again. You got to read the gay porn over and over again for each of their characters, who is going to last longer?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Draco18s
post Nov 4 2009, 05:18 AM
Post #14


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,289
Joined: 2-October 08
Member No.: 16,392



Given that I can read furry porn without batting an eyelash, I could survive all but one other person (wouldn't matter which of us is the GM reading it). But then, he would be the guy who as a GM, made one of the other players unamed, no detail, "car salesman" rating 6/6 contact into a gay troll (who proceeded to hit on my character, who was an elf) and because I declined*, we didn't get a discount on the van we were trying to rent.

I don't think I can describe Jim. It can't be done. He created Rodrigo (who may not be played in any RPG ever) and Bubblegum (who has made an appearance as a very cheerful cyberzombie spider thing with bright pink hair). He also created a brother/sister pair of rogue-ish characters in D&D and ended up playing both of them--and well--when the guy who was supposed to be playing the one decided not to show up for the game. It's very scary to watch Jim play those two (one of whom may as well have been Rodrigo, only more flamboyant, but still strait).

The best way to explain Jim, I think, is to inform you that his platform for running for the President of the USA (despite the 13 reasons why he can not be president) is that he will challenge Satan to mortal combat on national television. The only rebuttal his opponent can make is "but you can't summon satan" which is refuted by, "yes I can, and the only way to prove me wrong is to summon Satan first." At which point it doesn't matter who summons Satan.

I have never found anything that would squick Jim, although in the context of The Game he would play along with whatever you threw at him, responding as appropriate for his character.

Anyway, the point is, you have to find some method by which you can herd your players towards your goal. The better role players they are, the easier this is. The more munchkins they are, the harder. And everyone is squicked by something (except possibly Jim--though I think I just haven't found it yet).

*My reaction was purely in character, the guy who's contact it was started hating himself as a player.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BaldHero
post Nov 4 2009, 05:25 AM
Post #15


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 5
Joined: 25-October 06
Member No.: 9,707



Somewhere, someone in the city is going to create a matrix site that is going to pay off big for one lucky individual.
A crazed individual puts up a sign up sheet. You sign up, and at the appropriate time, you will get the gps coordinates for an AR button. Be the first to push the button and you win a certified cash prize. The catch is that someone on the sign up sheet is going to die.

The AR button will continue to appear all over the city, and you either have to push it, or risk being the person that dies.

Shadowrunners might be used in this scenario as either guards for the criminal hacker, holding off revenge minded citizens, fearful game players that have changed their minds, or law enforcement. a team could be hired to protect the son/daugher of a mid level crime boss/corp exec that is afraid the kid might die in the second round. They could be hired to find out how to stop the crazy asshole setting up the button.

Finally, some members of the team might wish to push the button, trying to wager their skills against whoever comes to take them out if they are selected to die.

How can i make this...darker?

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Draco18s
post Nov 4 2009, 06:41 AM
Post #16


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,289
Joined: 2-October 08
Member No.: 16,392



1) "Publicize" the murders. Everyone on the list gets a video of it, so they know who it was on the list. Opens up avenues for clues and wetwork.

2) The selected names aren't random. Don't tell your players, however you can be very blunt about it and subtle at the same time. Have a list of several dozen names, find some pattern that works even as the size of the list changes (players who join the game add their name to the bottom). Such a pattern might be "count down 14 names."* So the 14th person dies, then the 28, then when you loop back around again when you reach the bottom--dead persons aren't counted.

3) The killings aren't just killings, they're abductions, whoever is doing it is attempting to nab these people before they get to the button and kills them off in some remote location (if the person gets to the button and presses it, they are not abducted that round, and a new name is chosen. Leaves an opportunity to save the intended victim.

4) In fighting between participants.

5) Each participant can be given the location of a unique button, and they must be the first to reach theirs. Be careful with this one, as you might end up splitting the party if you're not careful. However, this does keep participants from running into each other, as well as makes it so each participant doesn't know if they were first or not (I blame this idea on a British reality TV show called Solitary--each participant was given challenges by a "computer" and was kept isolated from everyone else, so they did not know if they were winning or losing (how long can you sit in a bathtub full of ice not knowing if anyone else surrendered?))

*Personally I'd suggest something like this though modified such that the players can work out the system. You can even drop hints to the algorithm as clues, so it isn't just worked out. Makes for good wetwok.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
toturi
post Nov 4 2009, 06:56 AM
Post #17


Canon Companion
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 8,021
Joined: 2-March 03
From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG
Member No.: 4,187



QUOTE (Draco18s @ Nov 4 2009, 01:18 PM) *
Anyway, the point is, you have to find some method by which you can herd your players towards your goal. The better role players they are, the easier this is. The more munchkins they are, the harder. And everyone is squicked by something (except possibly Jim--though I think I just haven't found it yet).

*My reaction was purely in character, the guy who's contact it was started hating himself as a player.

Well, everyone may be squicked by something, but my experience is that everyone can learn to enjoy everything. The more adaptable players they are, the easier it is. My character'd salivate at gay porn if it'd make my GM feel worse and enjoy it even if he doesn't. Let's see - furry gay BDSM porn with pineapples. Pineapples and durains, yum.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Draco18s
post Nov 4 2009, 07:56 AM
Post #18


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,289
Joined: 2-October 08
Member No.: 16,392



I am not going to make this post, despite using a spoiler tag, it would brush a little too close to the TOS for my tastes.

I've already--twice--started a contest of "who's seen weirder porn." I don't want to start another one about "squickiest porn."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jake
post Nov 4 2009, 11:25 AM
Post #19


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,849
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 872



I was in the middle of a post reply at work and it failed.

To respond to Nezumi and Tymeus posts. I had this same dilemma. If they've done all this evil shit so far, just how low will they stoop?

To cut a long story short (mostly because I can't be arsed repeating myself) they wound up in a situation whereby they were "asked" (on the pointy end of a stick) to retrieve a sixteen year old girl for a paedophile insect shaman who had a bunch of kids as drone slaves (in more ways than one). Think everything from perfect merger flesh forms, to hybrids to true spirits. Anyway he was "enchanted" with this girl and they deduced he wanted to invest her with a queen.

Basically that was the point where the PCs admitted that there was a lot of things they were willing to do for money or reputation but this wasn't one of them.

I was quite proud really.

Until they started making under the table deals with Tamanous (and they KNOW its Tamanous) so I'm back to where I was really...

- J.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Draco18s
post Nov 4 2009, 12:53 PM
Post #20


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,289
Joined: 2-October 08
Member No.: 16,392



QUOTE (The Jake @ Nov 4 2009, 06:25 AM) *
Basically that was the point where the PCs admitted that there was a lot of things they were willing to do for money or reputation but this wasn't one of them.

I was quite proud really.


See? There. Perfect.
Now devise a plan whereby the characters form a relationship where they do one thing, then another, each one inoculous, but obviously leading somewhere. Reward them--not in money or reputation, but in a psychological manner--and after 8, 10, 12 steps get the girl.

If done right they'll get the girl, deliver the goods, get their reward, and just when they think they've figured everything out the bars slam down and its too late. "If you manage to find a way to escape now, you deserve it," to quote the story I read just prior to the tormented main character's last task: find a location without the use of sigh, sound, voice, or smell, hobbling along in chains he let himself be tied up in. One. At. A. Time.

The final step is the one into the cage that was built around you as you watched. Only realizing what was happening at the very moment that its too late to stop it.

The makes me want to write this mission now. Shame I have too much on my plate already.

I must talk to Jim about this. I just KNOW it would tickle HIS fancy.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Blade
post Nov 4 2009, 01:19 PM
Post #21


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,009
Joined: 25-September 06
From: Paris, France
Member No.: 9,466



The problem I have with such stories is that the players/PC can still say "I had no choice, I couldn't know what was happening.". To them (especially to the players who're just somehow 'following the story'), they were forced into this.

I like it better when they do it knowingly and enjoy it. Just like in Gibson and Swanwick's Dogfight short story, when the main character is torturing his "girlfriend" to get her to tell where her drug is and he feel nauseous not so much because of what he's doing but because he realizes that he's somehow enjoying it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Draco18s
post Nov 4 2009, 01:38 PM
Post #22


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 10,289
Joined: 2-October 08
Member No.: 16,392



Right. And the biggest problem is finding the right way to tease people's brains, and every person is different.

However, there should be some common baseline between shadowrun players whereby we can assume that there is some act that we can get them to do--willingly, knowingly, and enjoymently (new word?)--that will work on most players. I do understand what you're saying (which is why my first post was the basics, and that the hard work is finding that thing), in fact the story I read was one where I wasn't sure I wanted to read it, but there was something tickling some pleasure center of my brain and I read on.

What I mean to say is, most players of this game will balk at the idea of turning over a little girl to a pedophile insect shaman, and on at least two levels. The hard part now is getting them to enjoy it; step #3: breaking it down into steps.

I will need to talk to Jim, as I'm sure his deviant mind could make it work.

(Speaking of Jim, I finally got around to posting the noir shadowrun logs he wrote up for one of our games. Well, the first one, more tomorrow)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jake
post Nov 4 2009, 08:10 PM
Post #23


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,849
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Melbourne, Australia
Member No.: 872



QUOTE (Draco18s @ Nov 4 2009, 01:53 PM) *
See? There. Perfect.
Now devise a plan whereby the characters form a relationship where they do one thing, then another, each one inoculous, but obviously leading somewhere. Reward them--not in money or reputation, but in a psychological manner--and after 8, 10, 12 steps get the girl.

If done right they'll get the girl, deliver the goods, get their reward, and just when they think they've figured everything out the bars slam down and its too late. "If you manage to find a way to escape now, you deserve it," to quote the story I read just prior to the tormented main character's last task: find a location without the use of sigh, sound, voice, or smell, hobbling along in chains he let himself be tied up in. One. At. A. Time.

The final step is the one into the cage that was built around you as you watched. Only realizing what was happening at the very moment that its too late to stop it.

The makes me want to write this mission now. Shame I have too much on my plate already.

I must talk to Jim about this. I just KNOW it would tickle HIS fancy.



See this just reminds me of the Saw movies. Drop the PCs in a trap built up themselves and see what they're prepared to give up to get out.

"Hello <INSERT PC NAME>. I want to play a game....Live or die. It's your choice."

- J.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 10:01 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.