Seeking Seattle runners…, Recruitment thread for a PbP game in Seattle, 2072 Options

[Kerenshara]

On the diminishing dice pools in an extended test:

Professional is Skill 3 for a minimum professional, say recently out of trade school or seriously unmotivated if more experienced than five years or so.

Most professionals tend to gravitate toward what they're good at, since they don't need the kind of diversification 'runners typically need, so I would say there is an above average chance they have Attribute 4 instead of the ususal 3, but let's stick to "norm" for the moment.

You mentioned installation of an alarm system. But here's something I can give you as an example: Installation of a Direct Broadcast Satellite system. If you have relatively "green" installers, it's not uncommon to send them out in pairs where they can participate in a teamwork test on each of the rolls. Consequently the primary skill roller probably has an extra "hit" coming, and can keep it. That's going to help all down the line. And there are probably ways to further improve your chances of success. But believe me, there are plenty of people who are technically "professionals" who still routinely botch installations of all kinds of things and then need to spend time on the "repair" side of Build & Repair.

It's all about how you look at it. But fundamentally, if you look at sub-veteran individuals of average talent, they ARE going to mess up even relatively routine "extended" tests a measurably significant amount of the time.

[BlueMax]

Because this appears to be this kind of discussion thread...

For a certain definition of professional.

I've been trying to get a quote on getting my timing belt changed for month now. All these so called experts want to do "mark and pray" and tell me I am paranoid. None of them have ever worked with my engine and assume it will be "good enough". According to the world, they are professionals but not according to me.

They may still have 3 skill but the Threshold to escape assumption is higher.


Diesel FTW

BlueMax

[Karoline]

Thanks for the compliments. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's pretty much just a bunch of tables, though. Not hard to do at all. I make each one my hand, so there's really not a template or anything.

*grins* I don't have a problem with that, I've already read the source code and could adjust it to my tastes when making my own. My first big problem though is I don't know anything about getting a website.

Create a pathfinding algorithm for a robot? Sure, no problem. Get a website? Huh?

[Ol' Scratch]

*grins* I don't have a problem with that, I've already read the source code and could adjust it to my tastes when making my own. My first big problem though is I don't know anything about getting a website.

Create a pathfinding algorithm for a robot? Sure, no problem. Get a website? Huh?

<laughs>

I just used this site myself. It's free, let's you upload your site straight from the web, and doesn't throw any obnoxious ads up or anything. Seems to be fairly decent.

[Embers]

Given the discussion is it worthwhile for me to have Armorer (Fire Arms) 1(+2) or with this skill level would I absolutely never succeed at anything? Would it be worth it to trade Pilot(Groundcraft) 1 for a 2nd rank of Armorer?

[Marwynn]

TSP Karoline?

Well I do hope you'd succeed with a 3 in Armourer Firearms. My character only has 4 himself in Armourer. If we go to 5 we're limited to just 2 of those, and 6 is one per character. So 3-4 seems reasonable. Probably wouldn't attempt to repair armour though.

Doc Funk that's a great page! Very cool, will definitely rip off if you don't mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Just finished the questionnaire. So that's two down, I'm working on a more complete background/vignette. But that'll have to wait. Busy few days. And I want to add some more to the questionnaire.

[Karoline]

Given the discussion is it worthwhile for me to have Armorer (Fire Arms) 1(+2) or with this skill level would I absolutely never succeed at anything? Would it be worth it to trade Pilot(Groundcraft) 1 for a 2nd rank of Armorer?

Well, presuming a logic of 3 (Don't know if you've posted different) that would give you 6 dice base. You might also be able to manage some AR plans which gives you another +2 and gives you 8 dice which is the max you could have ((skill+stat)x2). That means you could buy a simple/malfunction in one go, and could even buy a basic/easy fix in three, or roll it in 2 most likely.

You might be able to manage a complex/common repair, though it would be somewhat iffy. One extra skill point would let you take advantage of superior tools or superior working conditions, which could put you up to 10 dice, which would let you do the complex/common repair without much trouble (You could buy the hits in 5 tries)

The side car mod does seem amazingly high, but I figure that it involves more than simply hooking a sidecar onto a motorcycle, but instead involves modifying the motorcycle so that it can accept a sidecar, which I can certainly imagine would take alot of work without really messing with the vehicle. You'd have to weld on a bunch of extra parts securely so that the sidecar doesn't break off, but you'd also have to adjust the rest of the bike so it balances properly when it doesn't have the sidecar. So yeah, I can see that taking alot of work.

[Embers]

I went ahead and traded off the pilot for the 2nd rank of Armorer.

[Karoline]

Oh, and calling the anti-theft system an alarm is like calling a nuke a small explosive. Not only do you have to get the vehicle to be able to tell when people are near, you also have to (and here is the difficult part) wire up the car so that it can shock the hell out of them without frying its own system. So yeah, I can totally see a system like that being really hard to set up.

[Ol' Scratch]

That's kind of the thing, too, regarding the sidecar. Thresholds aren't always about degree of difficulty. They also represent a required time investment. Like you said, modifying a bike in order for it to be able to accept a sidecar shouldn't be that difficult, but it should take a good amount of time. Thus the Threshold of 24. Unfortunately, the diminishing returns rule doesn't account for that abstractness at all; it only reflects the degree of difficulty. That's probably the reason I'm not too keen about it personally, but I certainly have no problem using it if that's the way things are going to be. It's just something to consider. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

One other thing I'm curious about is why is there such a huge leap of diffculty between a professional (3) and a veteran (4)? What exactly are beginners (1) and novices (2) supposed to represent, if a professional is really just a novice (ie, new to the field)? It seems odd that there's three degrees of skill ahead of being a true professional (aka "veteran") to me. I mean, if a beginner is just learning the basics and a professional has just finished learning the basics, is the novice really a necessary leap between the two?

[Karoline]

That's kind of the thing, too, regarding the sidecar. Thresholds aren't always about degree of difficulty. They also represent a required time investment. Like you said, modifying a bike in order for it to be able to accept a sidecar shouldn't be that difficult, but it should take a good amount of time. Thus the Threshold of 24. Unfortunately, the diminishing returns rule doesn't account for that abstractness at all; it only reflects the degree of difficulty. That's probably the reason I'm not too keen about it personally, but I certainly have no problem using it if that's the way things are going to be. It's just something to consider. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, consider this though. How much easier would it be to set something like that up on a bike if you had a buddy or two standing around to hand you some tool or help hold something in place? That could get you an extra die or two per person per test, which is about an extra hit. If you're joe average with plans, good tools, a good place to work, and a couple friends helping out, you have logic 3 + skill 3 + AR plans 2 + conditions 1 + tools 1 + help (average) 3 = 13 dice. So you roll 12 (max DP from skill and stat) + 12 + 11 + 10. That's already 45 dice in 4 attempts. While not yet enough to do that sidecar mod, that is a good start on it. Another two tests brings you up to 62 which is about enough to be able to finish up if you've been doing fairly well. Two more is 75 by which point you should have been able to finish unless you're getting particularly unlucky.

I still think that the difficulty of modifying a bike to accept a sidecar without messing up the bike for use without the sidecar is being underestimated. That is the sort of feature that I think generally comes installed from the factory or just doesn't happen because it would mess with the bike so much.

Also remember that a true professional mechanic is going to have a skill of 4, and likely a logic of 4 to match. They'll also have plans for whatever they're working on, great tools and conditions, and most mechanic shops they'll be able to get a half dozen or more people helping them out with teamwork tests (Even if it is often 'hey bob, come look at this and tell me what you think'). The teamwork part is what will often set a professional mechanic shop apart from joe average working in his garage. That and better tools.

[Embers]

How expensive are good tools/superior tools versus regular tools?

[Ol' Scratch]

<snip>

I get where you're coming from, I really do. I think my biggest problem is that I've always loved the old dice mechanic (even if it had its flaws, like the difficulty 6-7 nonsense). I mean using that system, you could have a modifier for difficulty and for time investment. They were smooshed together like they are in SR4. Thus if they had a similar Extended Tests mechanic, you could lower the difficulty a bit on that sidecar installation while still requiring a big chunk of time to do it. As it stands now, installing a sidecar on a bike takes exactly the same amount of time and exactly the same amount of skill to perform as applying a stealth-fighter like surface (Unstable Structural Agility) to a jet. Which is nonsense all around.

[Karoline]

I get where you're coming from, I really do. I think my biggest problem is that I've always loved the old dice mechanic (even if it had its flaws, like the difficulty 6-7 nonsense). I mean using that system, you could have a modifier for difficulty and for time investment. They were smooshed together like they are in SR4. Thus if they had a similar Extended Tests mechanic, you could lower the difficulty a bit on that sidecar installation while still requiring a big chunk of time to do it. As it stands now, installing a sidecar on a bike takes exactly the same amount of time and exactly the same amount of skill to perform as applying a stealth-fighter like surface (Unstable Structural Agility) to a jet. Which is nonsense all around.

Except that the intervals are going to be different. Sure, it takes the same X number of tests to install a sidecar mod as it does to apply a stealth-fighter like surface to a jet, but the sidecar mod has maybe a 1 hour interval, while the jet one likely has a 1 day or possibly even 1 week or longer test.

I mean that's like saying that just because writing a program and doing an extended data search both take you X rolls and so take you the same amount of time while ignoring that the program has an interval time of 6 months and the data search has an interval time of 3 seconds.

So yeah, SR4 takes difficulty and time into account separately by setting the interval of the test.

[Ol' Scratch]

Okay, you got me there (I don't think the customization rules go into time intervals so I guess I overlooked that; as I've said before, still relearning the game), but in the end it's still the same difficulty. It may have taken less time to install the sidecar, but it was every bit as difficult -- and your chances of failure were precisely the same -- as doing that top-end jet fighter customization job. Which is particularly odd if you consider the fact that the jet obviously wasn't designed for it, either, but apparently the engineering know-how is roughly equal to the sidecar bit.

I'll shut up about it now though. Not trying to turn this into a discussion thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Kerenshara was kind enough to explain things a bit better to me about the skill ranks privately, so I'm good for the most part.

[Karoline]

Hmmm, where is that customized advantages/disadvantages for the mentor spirit coming from? I've never seen anything before about making your own mentor spirit. Have I just not read through Street Magic thoroughly enough?

[BlueMax]

Hmmm, where is that customized advantages/disadvantages for the mentor spirit coming from? I've never seen anything before about making your own mentor spirit. Have I just not read through Street Magic thoroughly enough?

There are no mechanics for customized Mentor Spirits. They are made from handwavium.

BlueMax

[Ol' Scratch]

Kerenshara referenced a thread with some house rules she came up with. Let me see if I can find the link again. (We're still working on that part, too; that was a very, very, very rough draft.)

Here we go: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=829789

[Karoline]

Having a bit of trouble with that site. I think I might have deleted something that I shouldn't have by mistake. It has info up there, but it doesn't look like Dr. Funk's.

I'm fairly sure that I need to find a background image after I deleted mine by accident. Not doing all the tables and whatnot for some reason... oh well, I'll have to work on it some more another time. Playing with it via strait HTML is hard work.

[Ol' Scratch]

If it's got a white background and no real formatting, that's probably because you don't have the style sheet. Try changing the line that reads:

CODE

<link href="layout.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">

to

CODE

<link href="http://magnus.freewebhostx.com/layout.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">

and see if that fixes it for you. I'll go in a few minutes and change the URLs to point to my files, too. So try it in about 5-10 minutes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

EDIT: Okay, it should work now.

[Karoline]

If it's got a white background and no real formatting, that's probably because you don't have the style sheet. Try changing the line that reads:

CODE

<link href="layout.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">

to

CODE

<link href="http://magnus.freewebhostx.com/layout.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">

and see if that fixes it for you. I'll go in a few minutes and change the URLs to point to my files, too. So try it in about 5-10 minutes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

EDIT: Okay, it should work now.

*Hugs and kisses* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Edit: Behold my glory! (Under construction (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

[Ol' Scratch]

Ooh. <3

[JoelHalpern]

Mach is a dark haired, average sized Troll. he tends to wear reds and browns. And, unless circumstance prevent it, he carries multiple knives.
The crunchy bits are in the spoiler. Stats, when modified are written natural / adjusted. Costs were sent the Kerenshara. For skills, if a group is listed, followed by a skill from the group, then the group was purchased, and the skil purchased up further.

[ Spoiler ]

Real name: Marshall Evans.
Use / Street name: Mach

Bod 8
Agi 5 / 7
Str 9 / 11
Rea 5 /7
Chr 3
Int 5
Log 3
Wil 3

Magic 6 / 3
Edge 3

Initiative 10 /12
IPs 1 / 3


Qualities:

[ Spoiler ]

Adept
Hawk Eye
Guts
Black Market Pipeline

Incompetent: Pistol
In Debt (3 times)
Sensitive System


Adept Abilities:
Power Throw (3)
Combat Sense (3)
Low Light Eyes
Flare Suppression
Enhanced Perception

Martial Arts:

[ Spoiler ]

Arnis de Mano (twice), increase damage blade, and damage on disarm
Off Hand
Two Weapon
Iaijutsu
Disarm

Active Skills:

[ Spoiler ]

Athletics 2
Gymnastics 4
Diving 2

Heavy Weapon 4

Throwing 6 (Knife +2)

Blades 4 (Knife +2)
Unarmed 2

Influence 2
Leadership 3 (Tactical +2)
Initimidate 2

Palming 2
Infiltrate 2

Perception 4
Artisan 2 (Wood Carving +2)

Electronics 2

First Aid 2

Knowledge Skills:

[ Spoiler ]

Military procedure 4
Military Tactics 4
Gangs of Seattle 2
Wood Art 4 = history and people
Seattle Gangs 2
Celebrities 3
Seattle Nightlife 3

Gear:

[ Spoiler ]

Synaptic Booster 2
Muscle Augment 2
Muscle Toner 2
Platelet factory

Ceramic Knife w/ personalized Grip
Cougar Fine Blades 3 w/ personalized Grip (2 right handed, one left handed)

Medikit 6
medikit supplies 6

Throwing Knives 50
Flash-Bang 5
Flash-Pak 3

Fake ID 3
fake ID 3
bioware lic. (2) 4
Grenade Lic. (2) 4
Life Style Medium, +1 Security
more start money ...

Armor:
Full FFBA
SecTech L&A & Vit

Good Clothes
Action. Buss. (2)
Chem Prot 2
Armor Jacket
Urban Explorer
Helmet
Chem Prot 2
Lined Coat
Chem Prot 2

Climbing Gear
Gecko Gloves

Simrig
Biomonitor
Comlink specs
System 4
Firewall 6
Skinlink
Analyze 6 Opt 3
Browse 6 Opt 3
Encrypt 6 Opt 3
Command 6 Opt 3
Lie Detector
Smartlink
Extra Commlink


Woodcarving supplies

Rope, 200m
Binoculars

Ear buds (two sets)
Audio Enhance 3
Spatial Recog.
Damping
skinlink

[Embers]

I had asked about having earbuds with Damping and Kerenshara said no, its only availible in Cyber and therefore as an adept power.

[Kerenshara]

Just so you all know, I killed a small forest and am reading your submitted/posted character information. I wish I had more time to do it, but I'm doing what I can. We still have some people who are missing, so when I'm done reading, if I have the pieces needed for a full team, I will get that thread started. If, instead, by the time I am done, everybody else has in their material, I will do what I wanted to, which is run two threads simultaneously.

Objections?