Seeking Seattle runners…, Recruitment thread for a PbP game in Seattle, 2072 Options

[Embers]

Should sustenance (reduce food needs by 2/3rds) reduce the cost of a lifestyle? Only needing 1/3rd as much food yet still costing the same doesn't make much sense.

[Ol' Scratch]

Accessories don't take up slots, only modifications do. And a few modifications can be obtained as accessories. (Not really sure why they have such an odd-ball rule like that. There's no benefit for taking something as a modification instead of an accessory and, in fact, its often more expensive in addition to taking up a slot. Go figure.)

[Generic_PC]

Should sustenance (reduce food needs by 2/3rds) reduce the cost of a lifestyle? Only needing 1/3rd as much food yet still costing the same doesn't make much sense.

Your lifestyle isn't only costs of food. It'll be the costs of gas if you own a gas vehicle, or a first class transit pass, and obviously rent. Things like gym memberships, cable subscriptions and electricity are also paid for.

If sustenence is a spell, it'll require you to be sustaining it for a long time to see much benefit. Probably all day every day for at least two weeks. If it's otherwise, I'd take it up with Kerenshara.

@Dr. Funkenstein: But the internal smartlink is an odd one too. It doubles the cost of the weapon with no slots in SR4 core. In Arsenal, its listed as costing the weapons cost and 1 slot. Thus, which one should I be getting for my guns? Obviously the one in Core is more favourable. Also, should I protect my guns from hacking? Should I be worried about someone hacking say... an implanted commlink?

And there is another aside: What do I want in a Commlink as a Street Samurai with no 1337 hackzor skillz?

[Ol' Scratch]

Well, like it says in that chapter, modifications are available as accessories. The smartgun system is one of them. I have no idea why, but welcome to the weirdness that is the Shadowrun ruleset. You'll note they also have suppressers and silencers as modifications, too. And, for some reason, an extended clip is a modification that somehow limits a weapon. It doesn't make any sense. There's no benefit to getting a modification over an accessory as far as I've been able to tell. But by the rules, barring incoming house rules, the Internal Smartgun is available as an accessory and won't take up any modification slots unless you choose to take it as a modification instead. For whatever reason.

[Generic_PC]

barring incoming house rules

So, you see problems? key word being incoming...

The difference here is that an internal silencer doesn't take up the barrel slot, so you can still have a gas vent on top of it. (they might not both work at the same time, but...)

The sound suppressor is the same.

The smartgun wouldn't take up a slot normally when internalized. So yes, making no sense is really the only answer. Too bad.

[Ol' Scratch]

Nope, modifications still take up mounts. So you still can't have a gas-vent and a silencer on the same weapon anymore than you can have an underbarrel weight and an underbarrel weapon on the same weapon, even if they're both modifications.

And no, I don't really have a problem with the rules. I just wish they didn't combine accessories (ie, things that take up a mount) with modifications (those that don't) with those rules. Electronic Firing, Custom Look, Additional Clip, Firing Selection Change, Heavy Barrels, Internal Smartgun Systems... all those are fine as modifications. But things like Silencers, Sound Suppressers, External Smartgun Systems, Extended Clips, Underbarrel Weapons should be accessories instead. With no interlap between the two; either-or. If nothing else it would actually make External Smartgun Systems, you know, desirable option.

But I know Kerenshara likes to tinker with things like this, so I fully expect a Smack Down on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Embers]

Sustenance is an adept power that permanently cuts your need to eat and drink to 1/3rd of normal, and your need to sleep down to 3 hours a day.

[Kerenshara]

Nope, modifications still take up mounts. So you still can't have a gas-vent and a silencer on the same weapon anymore than you can have an underbarrel weight and an underbarrel weapon on the same weapon, even if they're both modifications.

And no, I don't really have a problem with the rules. I just wish they didn't combine accessories (ie, things that take up a mount) with modifications (those that don't) with those rules. Electronic Firing, Custom Look, Additional Clip, Firing Selection Change, Heavy Barrels, Internal Smartgun Systems... all those are fine as modifications. But things like Silencers, Sound Suppressers, External Smartgun Systems, Extended Clips, Underbarrel Weapons should be accessories instead. With no interlap between the two; either-or. If nothing else it would actually make External Smartgun Systems, you know, desirable option.

But I know Kerenshara likes to tinker with things like this, so I fully expect a Smack Down on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yes, they take up the accessory slot, but if you're engineering them together into the weapon, those two in particular could in theory be made to work, but you'd have to be able to switch the vents open and closed. In the open position, they negate the silencer ability. Closed, they really aren't there. But if you want to blow four or five spaces on them, have at it.

On the other hand, if you engineer one into the weapon, you can't use an accessory to get the other.

[Ol' Scratch]

Told ya. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Kerenshara]

Should sustenance (reduce food needs by 2/3rds) reduce the cost of a lifestyle? Only needing 1/3rd as much food yet still costing the same doesn't make much sense.

In the past, things like this came down to modifications to Lifestyle. Essentially, each additional "meal" needed increased Lifestyle cost by 10% and conversely, each saved meal was 10% off.

So that power saves you 20%.

[Ol' Scratch]

It might be easier to say that each similar power/ability increases the quality of the Necessities component with the custom lifestyles rules by one or two ranks each. So, for instance, Ogre Stomach might let your Squatter Necessities equal a Low or Medium Necessities. If that makes any sense.

[Embers]

In the past, things like this came down to modifications to Lifestyle. Essentially, each additional "meal" needed increased Lifestyle cost by 10% and conversely, each saved meal was 10% off.

So that power saves you 20%.

Sounds good, not that it really affects Jordan all that much since her Medium Lifestyle comes from a trustfund (automatic medium) and isn't paid for monthly. Maybe on her secondardy ID it would matter.

[Karoline]

Or you could just have it not factor in when doing advanced lifestyles. The thing is that a person with sustenance doesn't need to eat as much, but part of having a high necessitates is being able to eat as much as you want of really nice stuff.

For instance, you could say that a person with medium necessitates only eats once a day, but eats the same stuff that a person with high necessities normally eats, or because real people just plain like eatting he could eat three times a day and eat what people on a medium lifestyle eat, and the power would be for emergency type situations.

Same thing with people who need to eat more. If they have medium necessities, they eat however much they need, but it is only of low quality. So in essence your savings comes from being able to drop your advanced lifestyle by 1 point and still have the same overall lifestyle, or having to spend 1 extra point in the case of eating more.

The only time I see this as a real problem is if you don't eat at all.

I do have to agree with a 20% discount based on any amount less of food eaten. The cost of necessities as a whole (Which is 1/4 rent + food + power + water) is only equal to 20% of your lifestyle's cost, so it doesn't make sense that having to eat somewhat less food would cut out more than you are paying on food in the first place.

Oh, and just so you know how my mind works:
Neighborhood = 3/4 rent (location location location)
Necessities = 1/4 rent (space) + food + power + water (Everything you need) + travel expenses (Gas, tickets, whatever)
Comforts = Furniture + clothing + paint + trinkets + decorations + etc.
Entertainment = cable (or whatever) + MSP + club passes + tickets to fun stuff + vacation savings
Security = new locks + gang protection or official protection which gets added directly into your rent + patches for your house node

So as it looks to me, food only seems to be a very small part of household expenses, though it is likely the largest part of the necessities fraction of the lifestyle. I could understand 10% discount if you're eating way less food, but can't really imagine more than that even if you eat no food.

Also, for the modification vs accessory thing: wasn't there something about the internal smartlink modification overruling the internal smartlink accessory in the rules about modifications? I know for sure they specified overruling the rigger modification for vehicles. I'll have to look it up later.

P.S. Woo, forums are back up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

Also, for the modification vs accessory thing: wasn't there something about the internal smartlink modification overruling the internal smartlink accessory in the rules about modifications? I know for sure they specified overruling the rigger modification for vehicles. I'll have to look it up later.

If there is, I don't recall seeing it so would love a page reference if you can find it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The only part I know that's relevant is:

Modifications vs. Accessories

Some of the weapon modifications presented in this list are also available as firearm accessories. The difference between the two of them is that accessories can be installed without requiring extensive mechanical knowledge, while modifications require an application of the modification rules mentioned at the beginning of this chapter.

Please note that a firearm can only hold one upgrade of a type, either from a modification or from an accessory. Once a firearm holds a modification of a particular type, it cannot be further equipped with an accessory of that type. On the other hand, if a weapon has an accessory attached to it, this accessory must be removed before a modification of the same type can be installed.

If an off -the-rack weapon comes with certain upgrades like smartgun, gas-vent system, etc., it is assumed that those upgrades are modifications instead of accessories. However, those modifications do not count toward the slot limit and the weapons themselves still count as unmodified.

So, yeah. After-market modifications offer you absolutely no benefit whatsoever. The only real difference is that, for whatever stupid reason, modifications are more expensive, are more difficult to add to a weapon than an accessory is, and they take up a modification slot whereas accessories do not (with both taking up mounting slots).

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

It's stuff like this that makes me weep. The game has such an awesome setting, but the rules... ay caramba!

[Karoline]

I believe that is the passage I was thinking about. Personally I think anything that there is both an accessory and modification for should be limited to modification, though there are some differences with some of them. The modification silencer for example is more effective than the accessory one.

I suppose some of the 'real world' considerations for modifications over accessories are that the gun will likely be more... compact with modifications than accessories. For example, I imagine the underbarrel weight accessory to basically be a big paperweight with a clip to go onto your gun, while the modification will be the entire underside of the barrel being made slightly larger and incorporating some lead or other high density material to increase the weight without much extra size. Then there is, for better or worse, the fact that accessories can easily be taken off. This could be good when you need to smuggle the weapon past security, but bad for fight durability. This is for the most part more fluff than crunchy bits, but so is quite a bit that people spend in game resources (from nuyen to karma to BP) on.

Edit: And this is why I also have a burning desire to rewrite the SR rules. There are so many house rules out there, and so many things that people go "Well that doesn't make sense, but that's the rules" and so on, that it makes me just want to make a big compendium and end up with a whole new edition. If I wasn't in classes and more concerned about writing reports for class, I'd likely have a go at it, and I might make some half-arsed attempt anyway.

[Trench]

About mods:

I interpret RAW to say they do not take up <edit>[an accessory mount], as they are more "internal". Why else would it be necessary to say you cannot have the same item twice, as a mod and accessory? That would go without saying. So modding would allow you to combine 2 features that take the same mount, and it is possible to mod a weapon with an improvement that it cannot mount.
Also many mods have improved stats.
About smartguns: If you didnt order the smart version and you want to upgrade same gun, you lose a mod slot. Seems fair to me.

I think the simplest way account for bulk would be to give a bonus to the concealability of unaccessorized items. Like -1 for no accessories, -2 for off the shelf, -3 for a stripped weapon, or those weird guns that fold into a block*. Makes those integral gasvent 2's a little more attractive.

Keren: Does a character have to have the necessary tools and skills to begin the game with a modded firearm? What would be the labor cost?

Anybody: Which characters are already teamed up?

*What is up with that? folds into a cube but no bonus for pocketsize?
"Please Mr Airport Security, do not be alarmed by this cryptic, unidentifed metal block."

[Ol' Scratch]

I believe that is the passage I was thinking about. Personally I think anything that there is both an accessory and modification for should be limited to modification, though there are some differences with some of them. The modification silencer for example is more effective than the accessory one.

It's even more bizarre once you realize that Arsenal, which gives the rules for modifications, also introduces things like Slings and Underbarrel Weapons as accessories. Which, a few chapters later, they list as more expensive modifications that now take up slots and require special tools and tests to install. I mean, seriously, how do you make a sling "more effective" to any degree that would really matter? It leaves my poor wittle bwain all a fwutter.

Edit: And this is why I also have a burning desire to rewrite the SR rules. There are so many house rules out there, and so many things that people go "Well that doesn't make sense, but that's the rules" and so on, that it makes me just want to make a big compendium and end up with a whole new edition. If I wasn't in classes and more concerned about writing reports for class, I'd likely have a go at it, and I might make some half-arsed attempt anyway.

I so know what you mean there. I think it's something a lot of players would do given half a chance, though. It's just a pretty big plate for something that, in the end, wouldn't really amount to much. I mean, a lot of people have trouble acclimating a handful of house rules alone. If nothing else, though, it'd be a fun exercise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Trench]

About Adepts :

SR4p.195

For every point of Magic invested in physical abilities, the character
gets one Power Point that she can use to purchase adept powers.
Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character
one point to use with Magic-based skills. For all other purposes,
including the determination of the maximum level for adept powers,
the character’s full Magic attribute is used...Mystic adepts may
use their adept powers normally.

So now youre telling me a developer told you that maximum adept powers are based on the split rating? Perhaps you should consult a developer that has read the rules.

The only question, as far as the RAW go, is whether you use the split rating for max force on spells. The text is unclear but the example points to no. How did this forum interpret "For All other purposes" as "For the determination of maximum foci and in the unlikely event of a metaplanar quest"?

About my character: the abbreviated version was just for a sense of style. I have updated my character with<edit> Hardware 3, Medicine 3,Automatics 3, First Aid 2, and the Heal spell. Full character sheet tomorrow midnight at the latest.

[Generic_PC]

I do have to agree with a 20% discount based on any amount less of food eaten. The cost of necessities as a whole (Which is 1/4 rent + food + power + water) is only equal to 20% of your lifestyle's cost, so it doesn't make sense that having to eat somewhat less food would cut out more than you are paying on food in the first place.
[snipped for space]
So as it looks to me, food only seems to be a very small part of household expenses, though it is likely the largest part of the necessities fraction of the lifestyle. I could understand 10% discount if you're eating way less food, but can't really imagine more than that even if you eat no food.

Shadowrun makes little sense, apparently, when you look into it too much. Just by having a stomach made of awesome, I get a 20% lifestyle reduction. (Which is about 1000 off of a medium lifestyle, or 2000 off a high lifestyle...) Apparently, groceries are more expensive than you think.

I'll have my character done tomorrow. I've got some 24000 nuyen to spend, and I've gotta buy at the least, a Fake SIN, licenses, some explosives and finish kitting out my MMG. (which is currently running about 10000, with the base gun and a Smartgun mod.)

I'll just assume that Smartgun Mods overrule Smartgun Accessories, and swallow my power-gamer. The one thing I am violating, maybe... my P93, similar to an Ingram smartgun X, has a Gas Vent along with a Sound Supressor. One is a mod, the other is an accessory, but I seem to recall something about closing or opening the vents to turn one or the other off? I'm sure it was said earlier, I'm just too lazy (or tired) to go and look for it.

[Karoline]

Yeah, it's about 10 posts up. She said that you'd need both as a modification, can't have one as a mod and the other as an accessory.

And I guess so, groceries cost so much that they cost more than you spend on them.

Of course if you are getting a discount on your high lifestyle for having ogre stomach, doesn't that assume you are going outside and munching on the lawn every so often most of the time to supplement your diet of fresh fruit, veggies, and real meat? Seems kinda like that is defeating the purpose of having a high lifestyle, or at least the food part of a high lifestyle.

And I've had a character spend over 21k on a weapon before, along with a 'restricted gear' quality, so no complaints about your 10k gun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

So, funny story.

I'm already disenchanted a little with my character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif) I'll still play him and have a blast doing so, but, you see, if at all possible, would it be okay if I submitted someone else instead? To at least see if you think he'd be a viable replacement? He'd be more of a Face, but still have the investigative angle to him as well as being of the same magic tradition. I have most of his sheet done already, and he's far more capable of being a contributing member of the team in my opinion both in and especially out of combat. And, from what I've seen of the other characters, I think he'd fit in a lot better in the personality area, too.

Plus he fits my playstyle a lot better and would be significantly more fun for me to play as a result. But, as I mentioned, I'd still have fun even if I get a resounding 'no' to this request. I just thought I'd take a chance and ask anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

I think Keren would be more likely to let you do that if you're in team 2 than team 1, but I'm not entirely sure who is in which team except that I know I'm in team 2. I'm guessing most other people know individually, but I don't think Keren ever posted who was where.

[Generic_PC]

I *think* that I'm in team 1. When I gave him my sheet he told me that Team 1 was complete. Then take everyone who has no sheet, and throw them into team 2...

I dunno.

The thing is, I'm not done yet with my MMG. I've only got the one Smartlink Mod. Gyro Stabilization adds another 3000, which puts me up to 12000 nuyen. With only that.

I dunno. We'll see.

[Embers]

I think Keren would be more likely to let you do that if you're in team 2 than team 1, but I'm not entirely sure who is in which team except that I know I'm in team 2. I'm guessing most other people know individually, but I don't think Keren ever posted who was where.

I have no idea what team I'm on. I'm hoping a team list will be posted so I can see If I'm going to have a problem with Trench's Mystic Adept since he seems to be duplicating my areas of expertise.

[Karoline]

Huh, guess people don't know which team they're on after all. Oh well. I'm sure we'll find out soon enough and all be one big happy mass murdering family.