NPC Edge Options

[Faradon]

I was just curious how most people feel about non-"named" NPC's getting edge. I guess it just seems odd that PC's have this limited amount of edge for an entire adventure, but every NPC & NPC group that they come across seems to have edge they can throw around without any fear of wondering when it would be replenished....

I know the RAW has allowances for groups of thugs to have an edge pool and such... and even then I think it can get a little out of control, but what about individuals? Do you give edge to the unnamed NPC store owner with the shotgun that is going to open fire when a firefight from out on the street starts to creep in to his store?

Edge is such a powerful thing and if used the same ways PCs use them would make the game even more deadly very quickly. For instance, a cop who just lost his wife to a drug overdose who then responds to a crime scene where the PC's are suspected to be carrying a bunch of TEMPO. Cop pulls out his combat shotgun, sets it to full auto, and uses edge to bast an unwary PC into mulch... or better yet BURNS that point of edge to really liquefy the PC. Same for the SWAT rooftop sniper ordered to take the shot on the PC mage... do you let them add edge in their rolls against the PC's?

For those that do let these NPC's add edge in, especially for some of the more powerful attacks like sniper rifles, shotgun bursts, and security spiders with turret mounted weapons do you find it overly deadly?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I was just curious how most people feel about non-"named" NPC's getting edge. I guess it just seems odd that PC's have this limited amount of edge for an entire adventure, but every NPC & NPC group that they come across seems to have edge they can throw around without any fear of wondering when it would be replenished....

I know the RAW has allowances for groups of thugs to have an edge pool and such... and even then I think it can get a little out of control, but what about individuals? Do you give edge to the unnamed NPC store owner with the shotgun that is going to open fire when a firefight from out on the street starts to creep in to his store?

Edge is such a powerful thing and if used the same ways PCs use them would make the game even more deadly very quickly. For instance, a cop who just lost his wife to a drug overdose who then responds to a crime scene where the PC's are suspected to be carrying a bunch of TEMPO. Cop pulls out his combat shotgun, sets it to full auto, and uses edge to bast an unwary PC into mulch... or better yet BURNS that point of edge to really liquefy the PC. Same for the SWAT rooftop sniper ordered to take the shot on the PC mage... do you let them add edge in their rolls against the PC's?

For those that do let these NPC's add edge in, especially for some of the more powerful attacks like sniper rifles, shotgun bursts, and security spiders with turret mounted weapons do you find it overly deadly?

Yes, Edge is powerful...
We allow it, not overly deadly as our game is exceptionally deadly to start with, so it is expected...

Keep the Faith

[Paul]

MY NPC's have Edge, but I base it on how threatening I'd like them to be. Unless it serves the story why get too worried over it?

[The Overlord]

I dont see why it shouldnt be allowed. Edge is luck/karma(the spiritual kind) or the closest thing to it in terms of game mechanics. While a player or Gm may actively use Edge, in game terms the character PC or NPC are not aware of it, to them stuff just happens in their favor(assuming they were successful). Also since most casual NPCs like cops, store owners, run of the mill thugs, and so on will only apear once before either dying or just going back to their daily lives, giving them edge isnt much of a problem. I am however more apt to have weaker or Important NPCs get to use Edge rather than a small group of elite special ops or extremely tough guy so as to minimize the amount of fudging I might have to do and to occasionally surprise my groups. Your tricked out Street Sammy will never forget the time the supposedly weak thug that nearly took him out with a lucky shot. Moderation is always the key. If the team is having to easy of a time and seem to be bored with what they are up against, let the some edge loose on them.

[3278]

For my part, I have no special affection for Edge as a mechanic. It doesn't represent any aspect of real life that I can perceive which is not already accounted for in some other way. I would rather eliminate the mechanic than find some means of normalizing it across PCs and NPCs.

I'm betting that opinion will be in the minority, but I thought it bore sharing, anyway.

[Glyph]

The rules allow a lot of leeway, so there is no really "right" way to do it, but personally, I find NPCs burning Edge to be kind of cheesy. There is nothing wrong with spending Edge by NPCs, although mooks will have a common Edge pool rather than individual Edge.

How prevalent Edge use by NPCs is depends on how you look at Edge. If you look at it as a cinematic tool to be used to let the heroes (PCs) do occasionally over-the-top stuff, and to save their hoops when needed, then NPC use of Edge will tend to be more rare. On the other hand, Edge could represent just that, the edge that PCs have when they are focused, mentally alert, and unfatigued. Dwindling Edge represents their shock, exhaustion, and wavering concentration from protracted dangerous situations. In the latter case, a group of PCs struggling and spending Edge, then running into a group of guards with fresh Edge, represents that the PCs are mentally exhausted and the NPCs are alert and ready.

[EvilP]

I sometimes allocate some collective edge points to groups of enemies that they can use if the battle is tilting too far in the PCs favour.

For recurring NPCs and the like i give them edge and let them use it as frequently as the players to let them shake things up or when trying to counter insta-kills.

[Paul]

For my part, I have no special affection for Edge as a mechanic. It doesn't represent any aspect of real life that I can perceive which is not already accounted for in some other way. I would rather eliminate the mechanic than find some means of normalizing it across PCs and NPCs.

I'm betting that opinion will be in the minority, but I thought it bore sharing, anyway.

While I agree that luck can be simulated in other ways, I think Edge could grow on me. I'm still getting a feel for 4e, but some of what Edge does I like. Some of it I think I'll eventually refine.

In my own games, because I don't think I was very clear in my first post, anything the PC's have access to the NPC's have access to.

[Faradon]

If you look at it as a cinematic tool to be used to let the heroes (PCs) do occasionally over-the-top stuff, and to save their hoops when needed, then NPC use of Edge will tend to be more rare.

This is how I have always viewed Edge / Karma (from old ed's), Force Points, Hero Point, Action Points, and any other similar game mechanic. This "special something" is what separates the heroes (or antiheroes) from the common folk. Having every Tom, Dick, and Harry throwing around edge like it is just any other die (or dice) seems to trivialize the importance of the bigger people in the story (heroes and villans)

Having no-names throwing edge has just always been a pet peeve of mine as a player and as a GM. (Though I am all for "major players" having it)

[tagz]

My NPCs have 'group edge' that they all share. And it's usually only a bit, 2 - 3 points. I usually just use it to negate glitches on damage soaks, but I've used it to add some UMPH to an attack or two. They can't burn it.

[3278]

In my own games, because I don't think I was very clear in my first post, anything the PC's have access to the NPC's have access to.

This is the most important thing to me. If Edge represents some metaphysical luck which isn't included in the dice, fine. If Edge represents that working just a little bit harder toward some particular goal, fine. But if mechanics for PCs and NPCs start to differ, the entire feeling of realism breaks down for me. I can suspend disbelief that Dragons and datajacks are commonplace, but if the idea is that the PCs are special snowflakes whose destinies are shepherded by some power which doesn't grace everyone else, I'd rather play Earthdawn, where that mechanic is real, meaningful, and clearly present in the setting.

Of course, I'd always rather play Earthdawn, so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Cain]

I've never had trouble with NPC's *using* Edge in any game I've ran or played in. I have had trouble with NPC's *burning* Edge left and right. It's beyond cheesy, it's practically GM fiat, especially when burned for critical successes or to Escape Certain Death.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is the most important thing to me. If Edge represents some metaphysical luck which isn't included in the dice, fine. If Edge represents that working just a little bit harder toward some particular goal, fine. But if mechanics for PCs and NPCs start to differ, the entire feeling of realism breaks down for me. I can suspend disbelief that Dragons and datajacks are commonplace, but if the idea is that the PCs are special snowflakes whose destinies are shepherded by some power which doesn't grace everyone else, I'd rather play Earthdawn, where that mechanic is real, meaningful, and clearly present in the setting.

Of course, I'd always rather play Earthdawn, so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Earthdawn is starting to grow on me, but I still prefer Shadowrun...

Keep the Faith

[kzt]

For my part, I have no special affection for Edge as a mechanic. It doesn't represent any aspect of real life that I can perceive which is not already accounted for in some other way. I would rather eliminate the mechanic than find some means of normalizing it across PCs and NPCs.

I'm betting that opinion will be in the minority, but I thought it bore sharing, anyway.

You might be a minority view, but you are not alone.

[W@geMage]

Edge is a useful tool to give new players some leeway.
It allows them to try some of the crazy stuff SR allows without punishing them too harshly.

When we started our campaign with all new players the first 10 sessions or so I never had NPC's use Edge, while refreshing their full pool every session.
When I saw that they became more acquainted with the system and their characters, I gradually started using NPC Edge and slowing their Edge refreshing.

It's a decent GM tool. The only danger can be that players tend to meta-game this stat more than others.

[Blade]

I don't fudge dice rolls as a GM so to me, Edge is a way to "correct" bad rolls for NPCs just as it is for PCs.

[PatB]

As a GM, I won't allow an NPC to burn edge, with 2 exceptions:
1- It's a 'player-type' NPC, meaning he's a runner part of the team
2- Enemies. For me, and based on their definition (these are NPCs that are bound to return one day), it makes sense to allow them to burn edge.

Also, I rule out that spirits controled by the player can only use edge for defensive rolls. As all rules have exceptions, I allow a player with the Spirit Affinity quality to control the edge pool for that spirit type only, be it defensive or offensive. Of course, if the player is not careful, he might lose that quality ...

[pbangarth]

A key issue about NPC Edge is that while the players have a limited pool of Edge, the GM has an unlimited pool to draw from. This very naturally reflects the situation that no character or group of characters can take on the world. They have to be careful and know when to run or lay low.

In practice, this can be misused by a GM to 'win' whenever she wants to. It is not so much that the mechanic is unrealistic, as that it opens the possibility for unfair play on the part of the GM. Some of the posters above give examples of how they as GMs try to walk the fine line between making the world as big and bad as it is and stomping on the players.

The use of Edge by the GM, even burning it, has cinematic use in the game, but it requires a savvy GM, and if you as GM don't feel safe, it would be best to avoid it except in very clearly defined and limited cases.

[Cain]

Let's give an example of abuse, shall we?

The GM (not me) had created a monstrous Lucky Nartaki mutant. He had 8 Edge. In addition to using it liberally for the one battle, every time we landed a powerful blow, he would burn Edge for a critical success on the soak roll, reducing the damage to nothing. We couldn't kill him with a direct hit from an assault cannon. overcast spells-- we couldn't even scratch him. What's more, he burned Edge on attack rolls, prompting the GM to say (and I quote): "Burn Edge or die." We couldn't kill him until we set free the GM's pet NPC's, after which he suddenly stopped burning Edge.

Now, I'm not saying that most, or even many, GM's would do something so cheesy. But as you can see, burning Edge by NPC's has left a bad taste in my mouth. There's no real reason for it, and lots of reasons not to do it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Let's give an example of abuse, shall we?

The GM (not me) had created a monstrous Lucky Nartaki mutant. He had 8 Edge. In addition to using it liberally for the one battle, every time we landed a powerful blow, he would burn Edge for a critical success on the soak roll, reducing the damage to nothing. We couldn't kill him with a direct hit from an assault cannon. overcast spells-- we couldn't even scratch him. What's more, he burned Edge on attack rolls, prompting the GM to say (and I quote): "Burn Edge or die." We couldn't kill him until we set free the GM's pet NPC's, after which he suddenly stopped burning Edge.

Now, I'm not saying that most, or even many, GM's would do something so cheesy. But as you can see, burning Edge by NPC's has left a bad taste in my mouth. There's no real reason for it, and lots of reasons not to do it.

Cain...
That would appear to be an Edge Case (Sorry, I know that was bad, but it is hard to avoid)... you are right, I do not think that the vast majority of GM's would have handled the situation in the same manner...

Keep the Faith

[Ravor]

Personally I give everyone in the world their own Edge Pool, but in my Campaigns using Edge is basically a semi-magical ability that all Namegivers share to tell the Universe itself to go frag itself and as such "corper types" simply don't have the force of personality to have a high Edge, where-as Pink Mohawks do.


My NPCs very seldom burn Edge, and then only in situations where I think a reasonably played PC would do so, because although I may have an unlimited number of NPCs under my control, that NPC only has his limited Edge to draw on and I try to run my NPCs as simulatist as possible.

[Fuchs]

My NPCs do not burn edge, but can spend edge if they are important enough - I usually use it for dodge and resistance tests.