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> Multiple Guns and Multiple Actions, Um....
kevyn668
post Jan 31 2004, 02:46 PM
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We've discussed the two gun thing to death, along with BF/FA pistols. My question this time around is how do you handle a character that has two guns; one requires a simple action the other a complex action?

Say, if you've you got a Savalette in your right hand and your left is filled w/ a Pred. Would you have to fire them both in the same action or could you split it?

Or a Super Warhawk and a Pred?
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Raptor1033
post Jan 31 2004, 02:58 PM
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i thought the rules said you had to fire the weapons on the same firing mode, just a sec, i'll see if i can find it... can't find it in the main book, don't have CC with me to try looking in there, so maybe i'm just pulling that out my ass.
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kevyn668
post Jan 31 2004, 03:59 PM
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Y'know, that does sound familiar...oops. :oops:

So, we could just call it game balance and say its impossible? Doesn't seem fair, its still just a trigger,
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Fonitrus
post Jan 31 2004, 04:20 PM
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u can hold 2 guns or a a gun and sword or gun and grenade or whatever combination u are not forced to use both.
u can chose to fire both at the same time each test having additional +2 modifier

one thing u cannot do is dual fire guns with diferent requirements.
Complex action and simple action will not work same as BF and SA guns...


p112 SR3 and p94 CC deal with this in detail..

pistols and SMG type weapons only and same mode only.

hope that helps
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kevyn668
post Jan 31 2004, 04:23 PM
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I understand the rules but is there a reason for them other than game balance/simplicity?

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Fonitrus
post Jan 31 2004, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (kevyn668)
I understand the rules but is there a reason for them other than game balance/simplicity?

well.. without knowing why the game designers decided to have this rule as it is, I would have to speculate that it has to do something with the 3 second combat turn division.

in such a short time any combat phase u have is even shorter part of those 3 seconds...
so if u had lets say FA firing on a SMG and a pistol firing SA in other hand if u slow down the things that happen when u perform the actions u realize that u are either focusing on one or the other similar to the drumming of the head while rubbing ur tummy and hopping on one leg...u will realise the rubbing of the tummy soon becomes a tapping of the tummy because u r synchronising the hoping with the tapping on the head and ur brain is only capable of so few tasks...multitasking isnt the brains strongside....

further proof...listening to music and reading blend together as long as the words in the music are not too pronounced (or u try to understand them)..try listening to the radio host talk and read u feel like punching the radio because it pisse du off u cant read... its the way we are wired..most commonly left hemisphere is language processing while the right side is for manipulating graphical objects etc etc the artistic side...

now if u r firing 2 pistols in the same time the brain knows how to fire a pisttol and simply mimics (in laymans terms) the actions of the dominant side to the other side so squeezing the trigger will result in a simple shot...

now lets see what will happen if the non-dominant side had BF as mode and u fired...ur brain will squeeze the trigger, ur dominant side will fire one bullet, the other side will start going out of control because ur brain is concentrating on ur dominant side...OR u will miss severely with ur dominant side because ur brain focuses on the needs to fire a burst of the non-dominat hand...

its even worse when FA is involved..
sure its just squeezing the trigger but in that case u r just supressing fire and not actually trying to shoot a particular target..trting to actively achieve a shot with both guns is impossible simply because ur mind isnt wired as u would like it to be.

in other terms...the game designers decided to spare us trhe psycology and the biology lessons so they just produced a simple rule that is a true representation of ur brain's operation.

the game balance issue may have been a factor but i think this rule is more for being 'REAL' than being balanced.
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Raptor1033
post Jan 31 2004, 05:28 PM
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i s'pose you could houserule it so you could fire in different modes, just apply something like a +4 or +6 modifier to the second weapon to show the difficulty in concentrating on doing such a thing.
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Fonitrus
post Jan 31 2004, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (Raptor1033)
i s'pose you could houserule it so you could fire in different modes, just apply something like a +4 or +6 modifier to the second weapon to show the difficulty in concentrating on doing such a thing.

hmm well u r not really concentrating on anything rather than distancing urself from focusing on either..kinda 'focus in the middle' but since there is no symetry in the actions ur really strainign urself to do anything of that kind...

soif u were to examine a scenario of a BF and an SA at short range i would say the following apply as standard:

PER Firearm
TN 4 for range (not counting gear neg mods, just base)
+2 Dual Weapons at once
+8 Strenuous action (find Strenuous under difficulty table on p92 SR3)
--------------------------

Thats 14 before any vision, movement,recoil, damage and other modifiers are applied...

have fun..i prefer double BF with the BF capable even on uncompensated gun the 1st shot is 4+3=7 (need 6) and second BF is TN 10...
much better than base 14 on both tests and that just for 1 Simple Action...
unless u can compensate the full recoil of the BF gun (even on the first shot) then i will be also added to the other test..as per rules for dual shooting...any recoil uncompensated applies to both hands...

so that 14 becomes 17 if u cant compensate the other 3 recoil from the burst.

futile excercise if u ask me.
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Modesitt
post Jan 31 2004, 06:49 PM
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The reason is simplicity and maybe realism.

Realism is that it's hard to focus on two different activities at a time. If you ever get a chance to, try to type with two keyboards on two different computes at the same time. But really, it's probably simplicity.

I'm writing the rest of this post on the assumption that you interpret the two ranged weapons rules the same way I do. The way I interpret those rules, if they're both on burst-fire, you can fire a burst with both with one simple action. Same thing if they're both set on FA, you can fire both in a phase.

Off the cuff 'fix' to them - You can take a free action and either a complex action or two simple actions with each gun per phase. When someone is doing two different actions with their guns, apply an additional +1 penalty to their attacks, IE If someone wants to go full-auto with one gun and burst-fire with the other, they get +1 TN to both attacks. Apply all other perks and penalties as usual.

If someone wants to do something with each hand in another situation, such as disarming two bombs at once, apply the same penalties as you would for firing two guns, keeping in mind the penalties for multiple targets and focusing on things in different fields of vision.
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RangerJoe
post Jan 31 2004, 07:40 PM
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I'd actually give a player a small negative TN mod for firing two Tommy guns at the same time in FA (for being classy, man) on top of a larger TN mod for using a pair of preferably two-handed firearms like they were holdouts.

A mechanic that might work and help simulate the difficulty of using two (in this case, auto) firearms would be to calculate the ranged combat test for gun A (dominant hand) using only a +2 "I'm doing two things at once" mod plus any recoil mods. Then make a test for gun B (off-hand) with the +2 "I'm doing two things at once" mod, plus the +4 "You should see me _write_ with this hand" mod, plus any recoil mods. To add to the challenge of using a second autofire weapon, one could double off-hand recoil mods to represent the challenge of not thinking so much about the second weapon. Otherwise, a healthy +(6 + recoil) should make a player think twice.

If you want to be a forgiving GM and encourage players to use tandem firearms, I'd just treat it as one ranged combat test, with standard scaling of power and damage code (+n, + 1/3 n), and a simple +2 "I'm doing two things at once... sort of" mod. For game balance's sake, I'd sum the recoils.

By the by, can you imagine cutting a whole through a swarm of gnats on a hot summer day in Charleston, CAS with a burst from a pair of tandem sliverguns? Makes this whole tandem firearms affair seem like a good idea. Then again, I hate gnats...
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Fonitrus
post Feb 1 2004, 01:26 AM
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QUOTE (RangerJoe)
I'd actually give a player a small negative TN mod for firing two Tommy guns at the same time in FA (for being classy, man) on top of a larger TN mod for using a pair of preferably two-handed firearms like they were holdouts.

both same mode FA no problem.
if both are SMG size no problem.

i often include the invisible GM Factor if i think what they do is cool and rememberable but I tend not to tell them why they got a 'discount' on the high TN because they will then foolishly think its written in stone and start abusing the new 'rule' to a point that they work on killing their current characters just to make new ones that use exclusively that sort of gear that utilises the new 'rule' just for the cool factor. but often the cool factor goes out the drain as their main objective is rule abuse just for PC comparisons OOC "my guy is better than yours"
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