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> Weapon Choices for a weapon specialist, a survey of practical knowledge
Corgak
post Oct 27 2009, 05:42 AM
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I have a surged ork, weapon specialist that I am going to be running in a few monthes for my first shadowrun game. My current line up of weapons are a ceramic knife, a collapsable bow (rated at 6 STR), a modified Ruger Thunderbolt (most notably adding full auto and sound suppression), a modified SPAS-22 (most notably an under-barrel bola launcher), and a modified ARES Alpha (most notably an airburst linked under-barrel grenade launcher). The ammo I am currently planning on running with are regular and hammerhead arrows for the bow; regular, hollow point, and SnS for the Ruger; Slug, Flachette, and bolas for the SPAS-22, and regular, frag grenades, smoke grenades, and white phosphorus grenades for the ARES. Obviously I am not carrying all of these all the time, its my initial full arsenal.

My first question is, "Is this set of weapons well rounded enough?"
My second question is, "Are any of the weapons and/or mods a waste of money (as in I will never ever use it)?"
My third and final (I think) question is, "What weapons should I be looking to aquire next?"
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Udoshi
post Oct 27 2009, 06:47 AM
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I see that you've got arsenal, that's good. Can't speak as to the loadout, but you want to snag the Clubs skill - its used for guns as improvised weapons, just in case you need to love tap people with your gun.

A holdout pistol with stick and shocks, might not be a bad idea.
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Neraph
post Oct 27 2009, 07:29 AM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 27 2009, 12:47 AM) *
I see that you've got arsenal, that's good. Can't speak as to the loadout, but you want to snag the Clubs skill - its used for guns as improvised weapons, just in case you need to love tap people with your gun.

A holdout pistol with stick and shocks, might not be a bad idea.

Actually, the Fichetti Security 600 makes for an amazing taser: it has a 30 round clip and is a light pistol with a built in laser site. Simply amazing.

Also, the Automatics skill will pretty much carry the day for anyone: on the one hand you have Machine Pistols, of which the Ares Crusader wins - same weight, roughly the same size, and the same firing possibility (plus Burst Fire) as a normal pistol, with a 40 round clip instead; and on the other hand, you have the Ares Alpha - it's called the Alpha for a freaking reason.

I would suggest picking up clubs for those moments they get too close as well, and also think about a bayonet. Also see if you can run certain other bayonet weapon configurations past your GM, such as:

Lancer
Colt M23 (6P; -2 AP; SA/BF/FA; 0 RC; 40©; 5R) [5R, 750]
[3 Slots] Underbarrel Weapon (Monofilament Chainsaw: 1 Reach; 5P; -2 AP) [4, 300]
[2 Slots] Gas Vent 3 [6R, 400]
[1 Slot] Smartgun System [6R, 750]
Av: 6R
Cost: 2,200
Plus Model: (On Chainsaw)
[1 Slot] Personalized Grip [2, 100]
[1 Slot] Flashlight [-, 25]
[1 Slot] Low-Light Flashlight [-, 25]
[1 Slot] Thermographic Flashlight [-, 25]
Barrel Mounted Laser Sight [2, 100]
Shock Pad [2, 50]
Av: 6R
Cost: 2,525

This same concept can be used to add an underbarrel vibro-knife to your pistols.
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kzt
post Oct 27 2009, 07:40 AM
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The alpha includes the GL, and I think the airburst link is included too.

The only weapons we used were the pulsar taser, assorted pistols, alphas (except when we couldn't get them), various sniper rifles, and the Mitsubishi MRL. We also used the MGL-12 grenade launcher and White knight LMG on drones.

But you can't get the rockets/missiles for the MRL at game start, and 4a has nerfed them anyhow.
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 27 2009, 08:21 AM
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How has the Anniversary Edition nerfed the MRL? The descriptions are the same.
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Marwynn
post Oct 27 2009, 08:32 AM
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No Airburst on the Ares Alpha. But it does have the GL: SS, 8c. Since the gun's smartlinked buying the accessory's simple enough. If you don't have a way to Quick Draw any weapon, get one. Like the Martial Arts Maneuver "Iaijutsu".

I would add a lot more weapons. A ceramic knife? Try also the forearm snap blades, a vibroknife, a tomahawk or two (if you have the throwing skill). Consider also the Pistol Crossbow with some chemicals.

For firearms I'd make a small list:

- you'll want an everyday weapon, concealable and reliable.
- a 'high sec' weapon set. like a pistol with easy breakdown and undetectable by MAD. Use Hi-c plastic rounds.
- a primary pistol, say the Super Warhawk.
- a back-up pistol, consider a modified Ares Viper Silvergun that fires full auto. Mod it with a second clip. You now have a fire-suppressible pistol that fires flechettes and can suppressive fire twice before reloading.
- Ingram Smartgun X, P93 Praetor. Solid SMGs.
- Primary assault weapon: ares alpha's hard to go wrong with.
- Sniping weapon: A sport rifle can do it, but if you can afford a sniper rifle...
- Heavy weapons? A full-auto grenade launcher? Does he handle that?

Think also of whatever complementary weapons you may want to have in each situation. Also consider that Tasers are legal most anywhere.

Which guns he may have to draw with a chance for hand-to-hand? Melee Hardening would be nice there. Remember if you're using a Chameleon Suit you'll want Chameleon Coating on anything larger than a pistol.

Smartguns! Use skinlinks on them, skinlink your commlink too. No broadcasting of your guns. Don't want the enemy hacker to eject all your ammo do you?

You'll also want accessories for them; holsters of various kinds and hidden slides for some of the pieces. Don't neglect Sound Suppressors.

If you're ambidextrous then consider making a gun-sword of some kind. Easy to draw, flexible, but really requires GM approval.
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 27 2009, 09:02 AM
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QUOTE (Marwynn @ Oct 27 2009, 09:32 AM) *
If you're ambidextrous then consider making a gun-sword of some kind. Easy to draw, flexible, but really requires GM approval.
What does ambidexterity have to do with one gun sword?
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Medicineman
post Oct 27 2009, 09:03 AM
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You'd be needing some mor Handguns. F.E.
Ares Light Fire with Electronik Firing Mod (= very silent Pistol)
Enfield Merlin or Cavalier Deputy with Smartgun and Smartmotor(mod that lets you choose your Bullets,I forgot the Official Name, it was allways the "Smartmotor" for us )
the Fichetti with S&S Ammo is a good Idea too

HokaHey
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Thanee
post Oct 27 2009, 09:04 AM
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QUOTE (Corgak @ Oct 27 2009, 06:42 AM) *
My first question is, "Is this set of weapons well rounded enough?"


Yep, looks good for a start.

QUOTE
My second question is, "Are any of the weapons and/or mods a waste of money (as in I will never ever use it)?"


Looks good to me. Not sure how useful FA is on the Thunderbolt, though. The recoil will make aiming rather difficult.

QUOTE
My third and final (I think) question is, "What weapons should I be looking to aquire next?"


Something big, like a Barrett sniper rifle.

Also, I agree with the Fichetti 600 + SnS. Very good concealable gun.

Of course, one of those non-metal guns (was it the Urban Fighter?) could be useful at times.

Another useful weapon is one of those 'chemic guns' (not sure where they are now), that can fire Gamma Scopolamine or Neurostun.

Bye
Thanee
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 27 2009, 09:12 AM
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MilSpec Armor with weapon mount. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The Ares Super Squirt (Chem gun) is a really bad idea, since it is an exotic weapon. Better go for Capsule rounds with some of your guns.

If you do have Ambidexterity, consider buying two of your SMGs and smaller weapons. Two long Bursts with an SMG, full Dice Pool and probably no recoil is pretty deadly.
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Thanee
post Oct 27 2009, 09:25 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 27 2009, 10:12 AM) *
...since it is an exotic weapon.


Ok, that certainly limits its usefulness. You can only get that many skills to decent levels.

QUOTE
Better go for Capsule rounds with some of your guns.


Yep.

Bye
Thanee
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 27 2009, 09:50 AM
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QUOTE (Medicineman @ Oct 27 2009, 10:03 AM) *
Ares Light Fire with Electronik Firing Mod (= very silent Pistol)
Does the weapon have an accessory silencer (since the description explicitly mentions it being barrel mounted) or one with the rules for the modification?
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ElFenrir
post Oct 27 2009, 09:54 AM
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My elven sam is also a weapons-specialist in his own right; he has a high Armorer skill and a variety of weapons, including:

Cougar Fineblade Long(Custom Grip)
Katana(Custom Grip)
Walther-PB(his little gun if needed. Ceramic materials.)
Ruger Super Warhawk(heavily customized with grip, appearance and the like)
I got him also the very bare-bones SMG/AR and had him heavily customize them again with gas vents, personalized grips, and the whole nine, for his heavier assault weaponry. Gunplay isn't so much his thing(he actually just has a rating 3 Firearms Group) but he knows when he needs to use them and such. The AR has an underbarrel grenade launcher.
1 sport rifle for long-ranged, very low-key type of weapon. I like how these are a bit easier to pass off than sniper rifles and loaded with the proper ammo they are still nasty.
A couple throwing knives he keeps around. I went this method instead of the bow. A nice compliment of flash-bangs as well and an ''oh shit'' HE and Frag or two sometimes kept around.

All weapons have concealable holsters. He also keeps a variety of ammo on hand, always packing gel rounds in at least one clip.

No smaller weapons than the Fineblade or throwing knives-really the blades are more for character, as his unarmed strike is deadlier than either of them and hits enormously, and if he needs to go somewhere quietly he doesn't need any weapon. (Unarmed is his preferred method of battle.) He is heavily modified with bone-lacing, muscle augmentation and toner, and the like. (He is actually geared a bit more toward Strength, but his Agility is still very high.) He does have the Iajutsu as one of his maneuvers(the others being more offensive like Kick Attack, Riposte and Finishing Blow.)
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Saint Sithney
post Oct 27 2009, 10:20 AM
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Modding the Underbarrel Grenade Launcher on your Ares Alpha to fire SA can save your life.

If you're looking to pack a punch with a concealed weapon, maybe think about the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki as an arm-slide mounted pistol. It's a great way to start a party. Sure it's expensive, but it gives you the ability to fire two short bursts from a relatively concealable pistol with no recoil modifier (remove the fold out stock and personalize the grip.) Also, because of its metal storm inspired bullet stacking, it holds 40 rounds with no big extended clip. The trade-off here being that it's stupid slow to reload in combat. One up each sleeve solves that problem though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif) Throw in an internal silencer and, thanks to its electronic firing, any test to hear the sucker is at -7. Personally I play that, because it has four barrels, SA fire comes from one barrel and BF comes from the other 3. That way you can stack SnS ammo loads into the SA barrel and EX-EX into the burst fire side giving it more versatility. (Honestly, this pistol needs something to make up for how it should be statted even better. Three bullets striking the exact same point only microseconds apart will pulverize an armored target in the same manner as a fuel-air-bomb, sustained concussive force. Before the armor can flex back out and reflect the force of the blow, a 2nd and 3rd blow land. Sooo rad.)

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Medicineman
post Oct 27 2009, 10:24 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 27 2009, 04:50 AM) *
Does the weapon have an accessory silencer (since the description explicitly mentions it being barrel mounted) or one with the rules for the modification?


?
The Ares Light Fire has a very effective silencer and the Modification electronic firing makes it even more silent (IIRC -6D to Listening Rolls total Plus Subsonic Ammo) and the silencer is (of course) Barrell mounted
But I think I'm misunderstanding You ?!?

and for the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki.... ever thought of extended barrel and extended Magazine ? that would be 12 x 4
Bullets (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Jahta...Hey ?
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 27 2009, 10:36 AM
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I don't think it works that way with the Sakura Fubuki. The benefits of this specific form of electronic firing is the lesser recoil generation. It should not be confused with the standard electronic firing modification that provides recoil compensation and a perception penalty. It is either or in my opinion.

@Medicineman: Weapons modded with the silencer modification a) can still take barrel mounted accessories b) the silencer cannot be removed i.e. is not mounted and c) are silenced more effectively(-6 instead of -4). The description of the Light Fire 70 says that it has a barrel-mounted silencer. Now what kind of device is this? Does it provide -5 dice or -7? Can the weapon take barrel mounted accessories? Can the silencer be removed easily?
If the rules differ from the mod. silencer only in its effectiveness then why ad "barrel-mounted" since, as you already pointed out, where else would one mount a silencer?
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Medicineman
post Oct 27 2009, 10:56 AM
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I consider the Silencer a normal,but better-than-average"Screw-on Silencer"
The Mod that I thought of was the electronic firing.This combined with the improved Light-Fire Silencer (and Sub Sonic Ammo)makes the weapon so effective

with a very silent dance
Medicineman
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Saint Sithney
post Oct 27 2009, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 27 2009, 02:36 AM) *
I don't think it works that way with the Sakura Fubuki. The benefits of this specific form of electronic firing is the lesser recoil generation.


The way it handles burst has to do with how the gas escapes the stacked barrels in rapid succession and how the near-simultaneous firing causes the slide to only move once per burst, rather than clattering back and forth between each round in order to chamber the next one.
I figure it's just that it's the only electronic firing gun before Arsenal set the rules for it and modification in general, so making it double electronic just to get the perception modifier seems silly. The gun doesn't even spit brass, how could it be quieter?

You know, honestly, the more I think about how awesome this weapon could be, the sadder it makes me. I mean, if they built in a smartgun system to do minor alteration to the barrels' relative angles in order to make sure all three bullets hit the same point, it would have the kind of armor piercing capabilities I described before. As it stands, I guess it just clusters. If they could mange that though, a range sensor adjusting angles on the fly to make sure all 3 bullets struck the same point, you'd have a next-level weapon. It'd put all other sidearms to shame.
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Sixgun_Sage
post Oct 27 2009, 03:02 PM
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Gotta say it but.... you're overdoing it, a shadowrunner is all about stealth and even a weapons specialist is going to be worried about getting the most use out of the most efficient loadout if possible. The bow is a bad choice, any situation you are going to use it in a thrown knife will do the job just as well, unless you are at considerable distance, then the obvious choice is a silenced rifle. IIRC arsenal has rules for modding a gun to be made of MAD-defeating ceramics, a heavy pistol silenced and made of such materials is your friend for the close up stealthy work and when mounted on a forearm slide is also a good holdout weapon for some of the larger metatypes. A good weapons loadout is, in my opinion a silenced ceramic weapon for close-up stealth work, several blades for a variety of situations (You can yank a knife out of the poor bastard's throat, saves on ammo), a shotgun for door breaching and room clearing, and an assault rifle (can't go wrong with the Alpha) for a versatile main weapon.
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DWC
post Oct 27 2009, 03:23 PM
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This seems like the right place to bring it up, among the debate on weapons in Shadowrun. I'm curious whether I'm the only player who has come to hate that the Ares Alpha is the best assault rifle in the world, and nothing else even comes close. As a fan of the setting, it offends me that there is a clear cut "right answer" about the assault rifle to use. I've gotten so sick of the thing that I refuse to buy them for my characters, citing reasons like ergonomics and fluff anecdotes for their use of things like the M-23, the FN-HAR, and the XM30. I can see the FN 5-7C having slightly better recoil control than other machine pistols and it pays for it with a laughably small magazine, but the Alpha just has no down side. It has a bigger magazine that all its' competitors (except the laughably terrible HVAR), a low enough availability to be purchased at character creation, and comes with both a smartlink and a grenade launcher. Lame.
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Thanee
post Oct 27 2009, 03:29 PM
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Yep, the Alpha is clearly superior to every other choice. Hence everyone uses it, and noone (except lowly gangers and such) has anything else.

Agree, that this is a bit silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee
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Ed_209a
post Oct 27 2009, 03:40 PM
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As a weapon specialist, your character should be working towards being able to say "Yeah, I have just the right weapon for that situation", no matter what the situation is.

My last Shadowrunner was a weapon spec, and his roles (and weapon, where I remember) were

Blade - Always carry at least one blade. Cougar fineblade worked fine for me
Big Blade - Generic Katana, eventually moved to a vibroblade when a corp assassin "didn't need it anymore"
Stun weapon - Stun club, tazer, up to you.

Holdout - Always, always, always carry it. Doesn't weigh too much, and you never know.
"Daytime" Carry - A heavy pistol, but without some of the subtle signs that say I am here for trouble, like the extended barrel that a suppressor accessory would require, or extended magazine.
"Nighttime" Carry - Heavy pistol, with all the deadly bells and whistles. It is the H&K Mk23 to the above pistols Glock.
Machine pistol - For when you need suppression, but only have a toolbox to hide it.
SMG - middle ground between the Assault rifle and handguns.
Assault Rifle - You either have an Alpha, or _want_ an Alpha.
Battle Rifle - Mysteriously, in 4e the FN-HAR went from a 7.62-ish battle rifle to just another damn assault rifle. I call BS. A tricked out battle rifle can be a mid range sniper rifle while keeping most of it's close combat ability.
Sniper Rifle - You all know what this is for...
LMG - For when you really need to kill every motherfragger in the block.
Multishot grenade launcher - Nice firepower, not too bulky.

My team never really needed anything much more than that. We got a few RPGs for one mission we knew would put us against security vehicles.

So, 3 melee weapons, 10 firearms. Only 5 are longarms. You only need a locker the size of a closet.
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Warlordtheft
post Oct 27 2009, 03:44 PM
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Yeah--a spec ops guy with an unlimited bidget, sure the ares is a great choice. For a bean counter trying to equip a 200,000 person army--not so much a good choice when the M23 or M22 will do.
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Ed_209a
post Oct 27 2009, 03:48 PM
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DWC and Thanee have good points about the Alpha. I know Ares is the biggest arms manufacturer, but are they really that much more advanced than the other corps in weapon design?

(Incidentally, does it bug anyone else that the game that claims not to care about too much weapons detail has Three and a half pages of firearms?)
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Marwynn
post Oct 27 2009, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 27 2009, 05:02 AM) *
What does ambidexterity have to do with one gun sword?


Well making one gun sword and then buying two of them are different things.

And yes, it sucks that the Ares Alpha's the only real assault rifle choice. The Assault Rifles could all use a revamp, even the SMGs too. The whole Automatics section could use it, to be honest.

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