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> Research for a new SR-inspired RPG, Can I pick your brain?
Koren n'Rhys
post Oct 27 2009, 08:42 PM
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Hi folks - new member here with some research questions. First though, a bit of background.

I'd not consider myself a proper Shadowrun player. I played a bit of 1e, then more 2e, back when they came out while I was in college, but we were AD&D players looking for a change of pace from our regular game. I love the concept of SR - the Awakened World, the cyber, Deckers and Riggers, the gritty feel of the world as developed by FASA over the years. My problem is the system. I've been playing older editions of D&D for a lot of years now (like 30ish) and changing to something so different was never comfortable. We just never got to the point where we felt comfortable or proficient running the game.

So, fast-forward to 2009. In the D&D world, we've been given the Open Gaming License and any number of new retro-clone games have arisen that recreate the simple rulesets of early D&D. Using one of those as the base (Swords & Wizardry White Box), I'm attempting to write a simple ruleset that gives me the feel of SR. I imaging that most of you true SR guys are recoiling in horror now, but there it is.

Some goals:
1) It is D&D derived, so will by default be a class-based system. Hence my need for the core archetypes. That said, the classes will be very loose. Nothing like d20 D&D or d20 Modern. I'm talking original 1974 style loosy-goosy.

2) Magic does need to be rewritten so it is a drain/point-based system, not D&D Vancian style magic. Got to write up Astral Perception/Projection stuff. That rocks.

3) Other things that I think are core: Matrix/decking rules, Rigging, Cybertech and gun rules, vehicles & drones (control & combat). Metahumans being able to play any archetype/class.

4) Ideally, one could pick up the old 1e/2e SR books and adventures for all the fluff and plot hooks but run my rules to play the game. Yes, it's going to be interesting to try to write this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So now my questions:

1) What do you consider the core archetypes? I need 3-5 base classes that essentially cover any character concept a player would want to run. My initial idea is a "soldier/warrior" class that could be a Street Sam, ex-Merc, Corp Security, Cop, etc. Focus on combat & firearms. A single class for Mage & Shaman. Where you get your spells and what you can summon is just window dressing. How about a single tech class that covers Deckers and Riggers? They jack into different systems for different reasons, but at the simplest could they be one class? More like SR4, I guess, but would focus on one aspect or the other, not be able to do both. Phys Ads - a separate class, I think. What else? A Fixer/Info guy with contacts, street knowledge & info-gathering skills?

2) To take this all a step further - what else overall is core to the SR feel or experience?

I realize that the members of this forum, especially, are not the target group for my project, but I hope I can pick your brains to be sure I get everything I should have packed into this baby.

Thanks in advance!
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Synner667
post Oct 27 2009, 08:55 PM
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Almost all the answers to your question already exist on the D&D d20 rules.

They did their Urban Arcana setting [Wikipedia link]...
...And have extensive rules in the Modern range of rules for most of the other things [cyberware, decking, etc]

Enjoy.
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Koren n'Rhys
post Oct 27 2009, 09:07 PM
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Hi Synner667,

I am aware of d20 Modern and Urban Arcana. To be clear - it is very much NOT what I want. Far too many rules, skills and feats and all the garbage of a d20 system. I want something that is much lighter rules-wise and after much searching determined it doesn't exist yet. My goal is a digest-sized booklet (1/2 letter) of 75-100 pages max. Very bare bones and leaving much to the discretion of the GM rather than making rules for everything.
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Degausser
post Oct 27 2009, 09:13 PM
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I recommend looking for the Munchkin RPG books. They are very much like that, very condensed, digest sized, and give all the technical rules for playing a game. I am full aware that it's designed to be silly and stupid, but it still works. Anyway, those might be a good template.
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Synner667
post Oct 27 2009, 09:35 PM
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QUOTE (Koren n'Rhys @ Oct 27 2009, 10:07 PM) *
Hi Synner667,

I am aware of d20 Modern and Urban Arcana. To be clear - it is very much NOT what I want. Far too many rules, skills and feats and all the garbage of a d20 system. I want something that is much lighter rules-wise and after much searching determined it doesn't exist yet. My goal is a digest-sized booklet (1/2 letter) of 75-100 pages max. Very bare bones and leaving much to the discretion of the GM rather than making rules for everything.

Well, if you'd rather start from scratch when there is material available, that's your choice.

Personally, I find that reading material and removing what I don't want works well...
...Especially as the amount of material is rather large and covers all sorts of variations.

Well, first off, if you're writing the rules...
...You should be using your view of SR, not anyone else's - else, it's their rules, not yours.

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tete
post Oct 27 2009, 09:36 PM
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QUOTE (Koren n'Rhys @ Oct 27 2009, 08:42 PM) *
Hi folks - new member here with some research questions. First though, a bit of background.

I'd not consider myself a proper Shadowrun player. I played a bit of 1e, then more 2e, back when they came out while I was in college, but we were AD&D players looking for a change of pace from our regular game. I love the concept of SR - the Awakened World, the cyber, Deckers and Riggers, the gritty feel of the world as developed by FASA over the years. My problem is the system. I've been playing older editions of D&D for a lot of years now (like 30ish) and changing to something so different was never comfortable. We just never got to the point where we felt comfortable or proficient running the game.

So, fast-forward to 2009. In the D&D world, we've been given the Open Gaming License and any number of new retro-clone games have arisen that recreate the simple rulesets of early D&D. Using one of those as the base (Swords & Wizardry White Box), I'm attempting to write a simple ruleset that gives me the feel of SR. I imaging that most of you true SR guys are recoiling in horror now, but there it is.

Some goals:
1) It is D&D derived, so will by default be a class-based system. Hence my need for the core archetypes. That said, the classes will be very loose. Nothing like d20 D&D or d20 Modern. I'm talking original 1974 style loosy-goosy.

2) Magic does need to be rewritten so it is a drain/point-based system, not D&D Vancian style magic. Got to write up Astral Perception/Projection stuff. That rocks.

3) Other things that I think are core: Matrix/decking rules, Rigging, Cybertech and gun rules, vehicles & drones (control & combat). Metahumans being able to play any archetype/class.

4) Ideally, one could pick up the old 1e/2e SR books and adventures for all the fluff and plot hooks but run my rules to play the game. Yes, it's going to be interesting to try to write this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So now my questions:

1) What do you consider the core archetypes? I need 3-5 base classes that essentially cover any character concept a player would want to run. My initial idea is a "soldier/warrior" class that could be a Street Sam, ex-Merc, Corp Security, Cop, etc. Focus on combat & firearms. A single class for Mage & Shaman. Where you get your spells and what you can summon is just window dressing. How about a single tech class that covers Deckers and Riggers? They jack into different systems for different reasons, but at the simplest could they be one class? More like SR4, I guess, but would focus on one aspect or the other, not be able to do both. Phys Ads - a separate class, I think. What else? A Fixer/Info guy with contacts, street knowledge & info-gathering skills?

2) To take this all a step further - what else overall is core to the SR feel or experience?

I realize that the members of this forum, especially, are not the target group for my project, but I hope I can pick your brains to be sure I get everything I should have packed into this baby.

Thanks in advance!


So you want Mutants and Masterminds with classes but it to be fully compatible with SR1? Also I wouldnt say 74 was loosey-goosy. Thats when Dwarf was a class... It sounds like you want a skill based system but with base classes/archtypes in a d20 rule set (or a simpler version of d20). All you have too do is look at an SR1 book the classes you need are right there as the archtypes.

[edot] also mages and shamans are very different in SR1/2 I would make them separate classes. Its like saying the Druid and the Wizard are the same class.
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Ulfendar
post Oct 27 2009, 11:38 PM
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If I'm correct in my understanding your goal is to do a 0 edition Shadowrun, similar to the 0 edition D&D that's been floating around? I think that's an awesome idea. Not sure it would necessarily be my thing, but it's an awesome idea. To answer your questions:

1. Core archetypes: If it were me I would do:

- Cyber Warrior (covers anyone who kills dudes & has cyberware)

- Mage (I'd let them choose hermetic or shaman for flavor and maybe give it some small game effect, like a different spell list, or different spirits)

- Physad (obv)

- Tech Head (covers decker or rigger depending on the gear you buy. Basically you're able to do both, and if you pick up the gear you are both)

- Face (catch all class. gets a shit load of contacts and is sort of a jack of all trades. Can be used as a fixer/social-fu guy, or can be used as a low-cyber secret agent type, or anything else you want)

2. Core to the SR experience:

- Dice pools: You can't do this with "roll a d20" it's got to be rolling a handfull of D6's.

- Gear: you need shit loads of it. Obviously you're playing the stripped down version, so I wouldn't worry about the little stuff (B&E gear, comm gear, that sort of crap) but you definitely need a big ole list of cyberware, and a big ole list of guns.

- Skills: I know 0 edition is a no skills game, but SR is all about your skills. I think it would be fine to define them by class though. (i.e. a first level mage has a sorcery of 3, or whatever). If you do that, everyone needs a firearms skill.

- Vehicles: You gotta have a pimped out ride.

- Mr. Johnson: The run always starts by meeting Mr. Johnson.


That's what I've got off the top of my head.
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Ayeohx
post Oct 27 2009, 11:57 PM
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Before you start planning a lot check into the Mutants and Masterminds (as Tete mentioned). If I was doing a d20 conversion for Shadowrun I'd start with a system similar to Mutants & Masterminds and develop from there. The d20 system already has a few cyberpunk conversions (in book form, not just some website) already. They didn't seem to do well even though they were decently thought out. The level system really wouldn't work well for Shadowrun.

The game world isn't really set for a level system either. What level is a Red Samurai? What really sets a level 1 Street Sam apart from a level 20 Street Sam? Are you really going to try to set a level minimum on the Panther Cannon?

That said, if you are dead set on a D&D Shadowrun bastard-baby then do a Google search. Many people have tried d20 conversions of Shadowrun. Some looked promising but for some reason most abandoned the projects...
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Koren n'Rhys
post Oct 28 2009, 01:49 AM
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QUOTE (Degausser @ Oct 27 2009, 05:13 PM) *
I recommend looking for the Munchkin RPG books. They are very much like that, very condensed, digest sized, and give all the technical rules for playing a game. I am full aware that it's designed to be silly and stupid, but it still works. Anyway, those might be a good template.

I haven't seen Munchkin, so I'll look into it. Thanks for the tip.

QUOTE (Synner667 @ Oct 27 2009, 05:35 PM) *
Well, if you'd rather start from scratch when there is material available, that's your choice.

Personally, I find that reading material and removing what I don't want works well...
...Especially as the amount of material is rather large and covers all sorts of variations.

I do see your point, and I have skimmed through both d20M and UA. What I want is just so stripped down from there that it seems an exercise in futility. It seems to me that it will be easier to build up based on core concepts. I may well be wrong in the end...

QUOTE (tete @ Oct 27 2009, 05:36 PM) *
So you want Mutants and Masterminds with classes but it to be fully compatible with SR1? Also I wouldnt say 74 was loosey-goosy. Thats when Dwarf was a class... It sounds like you want a skill based system but with base classes/archtypes in a d20 rule set (or a simpler version of d20). All you have too do is look at an SR1 book the classes you need are right there as the archtypes.

[edot] also mages and shamans are very different in SR1/2 I would make them separate classes. Its like saying the Druid and the Wizard are the same class.

I'll have to look into M&M ashttp://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=post&do=reply_post&f=26&t=28705 well - don't know much about it. Re: OD&D - yes, dwarf and elf were originally their own class - that is a change I'll be making. But the idea that the classes are very broadly defined is what I want to run with. It will still be classed based with each class having a core skillset - Warriors have combat skills - firearms, unarmed combat, combat awareness, things like that. Deckers cover the range of tach/computer skills - software & hardware knowledge,repair, programming,etc. Mages get all magic skills - sorcery and summoning, astral perception & projection. The "Face" gets social skills - contacts and info gathering. Re: Mage vs. Shaman - I'm still a bit torn here, so it's still a question mark.

QUOTE (Ayeohx @ Oct 27 2009, 07:57 PM) *
The game world isn't really set for a level system either. What level is a Red Samurai? What really sets a level 1 Street Sam apart from a level 20 Street Sam? Are you really going to try to set a level minimum on the Panther Cannon?

The S&W base I'm starting from only has 10 levels, so there isn't such a wide range. AS you go up in level, obviously the amount of damage you can absorb increases, as does you skill level in combat or decking or whatever. More spells and more powerful ones. The ideaof level being critical isn't so much an issue between 1 and 10 as opposed to between 1 and 40 or more in modern D&D versions.

So, what's a Red Samurai? Russian? And why would a weapon have a level? See, I told you I wasn't much of an SR player. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thanks for all the comments everyone - I really do appreciate the feedback and input. Lots to consider.
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Koren n'Rhys
post Oct 28 2009, 01:56 AM
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@Ulfendar - Thanks for the rundown. That is exactly what I was hoping to get.

Dice Pools - A very NOT D&D concept and one I was trying to get away from!

Firearms - Yep. Everyone gets those for sure. At least pistols and SMG type stuff. I'll limit the heavy weaponry to the Soldier class. Armor too - armor clothing and stuff like that for everyone but limit the heavy battle suits or whatever to merc types.

Thanks!
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 28 2009, 02:24 AM
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QUOTE (Koren n'Rhys @ Oct 27 2009, 04:42 PM) *
2) To take this all a step further - what else overall is core to the SR feel or experience?

Combat Pool is a big one. Other pools as well, but combat pool in particular provides an elegant abstraction that allows you to represent your prioritization of various tasks—killing the enemy, succeeding on one particular fancy shot, or simply not getting yourself killed—in a very fluid way that depends on your character's stats, not on your own personal knowledge of small units tactics.

Edit: in contrast to Ulfendar, I don't mean "fistful of d6s", necessarily. I don't know how you'd effectively implement this in another way, maybe a pool of modifiers that you can apply to soaks, dodges, or attacks? You'd need to figure out how to properly balance it, but maybe something where every <time interval> you get some number of points you can use to either lower your THAC0 (or modern equivalent) or your AC for a single attack?

Note that SR4 does not have this, so it may not be a frequently-raised item.

~J
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Trillinon
post Oct 28 2009, 03:22 AM
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May I point you in the direction of Savage Worlds? It's a very simple and elegant system that rates skills by die type (d4-d12). You just roll as single die with a static target number of 4. Many of the Shadowrun concepts would play well enough in it, without much rule conversion at all. It's designed for busy adults who really don't have time for complex rules. There is a downloadable test drive rules available at the site. Take a look.

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tete
post Oct 28 2009, 04:36 AM
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http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=145 < mutants and masterminds reviews (8 of them) are linked on that page. Its basicly what got me to play 3.X again. Character creation can be a nightmare if you don't like point based systems but seeing how your building the base classes that fixes that problem. Simpsons excel character builder works great with 1e to, again making character creation simple. I never played 2e so I can't speak for it. The other big change the made is damage is basically a save roll instead of HP. Then you have 3 or 4 stages of damage levels (its been 4 years or so since I played it). It only uses a d20 no other dice, rolling a crit adds +5 damage to your normal damage. I think its the best d20 out there but it still has the too many feats issue but its simplified considerably.
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Tachi
post Oct 28 2009, 05:41 AM
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QUOTE (Koren n'Rhys @ Oct 27 2009, 08:49 PM) *
So, what's a Red Samurai? Russian? And why would a weapon have a level? See, I told you I wasn't much of an SR player. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thanks for all the comments everyone - I really do appreciate the feedback and input. Lots to consider.

Red Samurai are the name for the elite security forces of the Renraku Corporation, Japanese. Badasses, sometimes in powered armor.

He meant a 'warrior type' character's minimum level to be able to use a Panther assault cannon.
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Ravor
post Oct 28 2009, 07:04 AM
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Hmm, how would you handle a "Wizard" that wanted to install a bunch of cyber?
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Koren n'Rhys
post Oct 28 2009, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 28 2009, 03:04 AM) *
Hmm, how would you handle a "Wizard" that wanted to install a bunch of cyber?

Given that stats are 3-18 as per old-school D&D...
I'm thinking that Essence is either always 18 to start (i.e "fully" human). Cyberware still has an Essence cost and reduces that number. As Essence decreases there will be a reducing in both Charisma and magic ability. For each 2 points of Essence lost, CHA is reduced by 1 and mages cast as if 1 level lower. So, if a 6th level mage installs enough cyber to lower his ESS by 6, he'd effectively only function a 3rd level mage for sorcery and summoning purposes.
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Koren n'Rhys
post Oct 28 2009, 12:52 PM
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@Trillinon - I've looked at SW a bit too, there are some elegant ideas there, I agree. More food for thought, thanks!

@tete - Thanks for the reveiw links, I'll give them a read. It does sound intriguing, especially the damage system. Maybe something I can use.

@Tachi - Thanks for the lesson - got it now. I plan to limit heavy weaponry to just the warrior class, don't know if I'd limit things to higher level characters or not. Probably not. It'd be up to the individual GM to limit access to those in his own campaign.

Great stuff everyone - keep it coming!
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Ravor
post Oct 28 2009, 03:09 PM
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Hmm, so basically the idea of a Cybered Face isn't viable in your opiniion, remember that the "social penalities" is really only for people with "freaky cyber", and what happens if you want to reduce your CHA to zero?
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Koren n'Rhys
post Oct 28 2009, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 28 2009, 11:09 AM) *
Hmm, so basically the idea of a Cybered Face isn't viable in your opinion, remember that the "social penalties" is really only for people with "freaky cyber", and what happens if you want to reduce your CHA to zero?

A complete face replacement for some reason? I don't see it being different than anything else. A mage pays the penalty of losing his astral sight and spell targeting though, wouldn't he? No natural sight any more. As far as social penalties - it would be up to the GM to make a ruling on how much they are in play. The overall system is so rules-lite it wouldn't be laid out explicitly.

Oh, wait. Do you mean a "Face" as in a class option? Again, I wouldn't make it an issue. Normally, CHA will affect how many contacts a PC can acquire, but maybe like attracts like and he has contacts who are at the upper end of the cybered spectrum. Again, it would be up to the GM who decides how common cyber is and how people react to it.

As far as a zero CHA goes - Again, probably not even covered in the actual rules. As a GM though, I'd rule that to be a case of complete cyberpychosis and take over the character as an NPC at that point. I'd venture that players of this game wouldn't be that hard-core - they'll likely be playing CP2020 or SR already.

I'm looking at SR through a 1e/2e lens now, so bear in mind it may have changed in newer versions. I don't know.
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nezumi
post Oct 28 2009, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Koren n'Rhys @ Oct 27 2009, 03:42 PM) *
1) It is D&D derived, so will by default be a class-based system. Hence my need for the core archetypes. That said, the classes will be very loose. Nothing like d20 D&D or d20 Modern. I'm talking original 1974 style loosy-goosy.



Hissss!! It burns!!


Seriously though, if I were to wander through all the world and look at every system I am aware of in order to replicate SR, D&D would be just short of LAST (perhaps just before superheroes). Every piece of D&D you include will basically eat away at the atmosphere you are trying to create. Levels make weapons less threatening, and eats away at the base paranoia of cyberpunk. Classes reduce the uniqueness and customization that lead to characters being characters, and not templates. The d20 system doesn't have the variability of the d6 system, so on and so forth. If I were in your place, I'd either go rules lite, or rules free, before I'd go with D&D. You will NOT be able to replicate SR with what you are talking about. You're just going to have a bloodbath hero quest with cyberware and guns. Consider using the rules as little as possible, from the cuff when possible, rather than creating a whole, flawed, messy mechanics that will make everyone involved cry.

However, classes...

Street Sam
Shaman
Mage
Decker
Rocker
Investigator
Face
Vehicle Rigger
Drone Rigger
Physical Adept (Combat/Monk)
Physical Adept (Skill Monkey)

QUOTE
2) Magic does need to be rewritten so it is a drain/point-based system, not D&D Vancian style magic. Got to write up Astral Perception/Projection stuff. That rocks.


1) Rewrite the stun damage rules so it doesn't heal automagically (it would be better if you actually took penalties for being at 50% HP, 75% HP, etc.)
2) Each casting requires a Will save equal to 15+Spell Level or you take Spell Level points in stun damage (or something like that).

QUOTE
3) Other things that I think are core: Matrix/decking rules, Rigging, Cybertech and gun rules, vehicles & drones (control & combat). Metahumans being able to play any archetype/class.


Matrix rules... Make a matrix like a dungeon, except all the monsters are IC and all the treasure is virtual. Programs create your weapons, armor and tools, your deck defines your attributes. There you go.

Rigging... Errr... Make it up as you go along?

Cybertech... Probably the most D&Dish way of doing this is each piece of cyber requires its own special feat to use, and you get those feats at different non-mage class levels. So fighter level 1 gets datajack and cyber eyes, level 2 gets wired reflexes 1, etc. It hurts to imagine it, but that would require the least manipulation. Otherwise you'll want to get back into the magic/essence/overcasting thing. (Another alternative is each piece of cyber reduces the magic-linked attribute. Link all magic to Wisdom, and each piece of cyberware reduces your Wisdom score.)

Gun rules... Use the ranged combat rules. I would, however, tie Base Attack/THACO/Whatever to a skill, not a level-based number. There's no reason in SR that a mage shouldn't be able to use an SMG just as well as anyone else.

Metatypes can play any archetype/class, but clearly they get attribute bonuses which make them better suited for some or others.

QUOTE
4) Ideally, one could pick up the old 1e/2e SR books and adventures for all the fluff and plot hooks but run my rules to play the game. Yes, it's going to be interesting to try to write this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


No chance. You're comparing apples to audis, going from a linear probability system to SRs bell curve system. You can take the plot and fluff, but you'll never be able to translate over the mechanics, so don't even try.


QUOTE
1) What do you consider the core archetypes? I need 3-5 base classes that essentially cover any character concept a player would want to run. My initial idea is a "soldier/warrior" class that could be a Street Sam, ex-Merc, Corp Security, Cop, etc. Focus on combat & firearms. A single class for Mage & Shaman. Where you get your spells and what you can summon is just window dressing. How about a single tech class that covers Deckers and Riggers? They jack into different systems for different reasons, but at the simplest could they be one class? More like SR4, I guess, but would focus on one aspect or the other, not be able to do both. Phys Ads - a separate class, I think. What else? A Fixer/Info guy with contacts, street knowledge & info-gathering skills?


Shamans and mages are very different prior to SR4. You mentioned SR1. If you are going for flavor, I can't imagine any reason you'd choose any edition over SR 1 or 2. Keep mages and shamans separate.

Deckers and riggers are also very different. You could argue vehicle riggers and drone riggers are very different, but I'll leave that up to you. I would never make them one class.

Physical adept I'd almost be more tempted to make into just psion feats or something. There's no reason you can't be a physical adept sammie or decker or whatever. But you want classes, so make it its own class.

QUOTE
2) To take this all a step further - what else overall is core to the SR feel or experience?


Life is cheap and easily lost. There's no such thing as heroes. You're always just a little fish in a big pond (sometimes the pond just gets bigger). You're never so big a ganger can't take you out with a lucky shot. Shoot straight, conserve ammo, never deal with a dragon. Never trust an elf.
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tete
post Oct 28 2009, 04:49 PM
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I was thinking about the compatibility with 1e/2e and I think if you use +3 for each point in a skill it may work ok. It wouldn't be exact but a character with a skill of 7 becomes a 21 which seams about right in terms of power level.
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Koren n'Rhys
post Oct 28 2009, 05:18 PM
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Thanks for the great rundown, Nezumi. Alot of you thoughts are on par with whats rattling around in my head.

Magic - Yes, I'm thinking an exhaustion system with penalties for being at 50%, 75%, as you suggest.

Cyber - No feats or skills needed. Cybereyes: low-light vision, magnification - handwave it. Smartlink - +1 to hit, etc. Boosted/Wired Reflexes - increased reaction (+1/2/3 to initiative rolls, increased movement rate, etc. Cyber arms/legs - Inc STR for the limb in question. Handrazors, etc - just a melee weapon, usable at will. All very generic and freeform.

I think most of you are seeing D&D through pretty modern eyes here. Original edition D&D, the basis for my rules, is a game where the PCs are MUCH more fragile than in modern D&D. PC lethality definitely will not be an issue and firearms will be very deadly.

Classes are also very vaguely defined so that a player can make a "fighter" anything from the plate armored tank knight to an unarmored martial artist to a swashbuckling fencer style PC. The base class really doesn't limit much, so in this case everyone will be able to use guns, though with some variation in skill. A decker or mage will be mainly focused on other skills and therefore not as good with one as a Street Sammy would be. And so on.

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