Elves. Love 'em or Hate 'em?, Most Polarizing Race in Shadowrun. Options

[SincereAgape]

Okay. So on Sunday, was able to PC during a live session of Shadowrun in North New Jersey. Didn't have chance to roll a character, so I played a character who I had killed in a different game. This character was a elven face with Wired Reflexes level 3, and skilled with the sniper rifle and a mono whip. The character was made entirely from the BBB.

We start playing the game. The run consisted of hijacking a truck shipment in the middle of "Spike" territory. So right away, for no reason the other PC's started housing the elven character. For some reason they did not like him. It's funny, because I didn't play him as an elite snob as I usually do. The group was planning on talking to the Spikes before the shipment arrived, to try and negotiate a deal with them so they wouldn't attack us while we hijack the truck. Yes, it's a bad idea for a high life styled elf to try and deal with a bunch of Troll gangers, but dammit the players started making fun of the elf for even the thought (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) .

Now to the point. Elves seems like the most polarizing race in Shadowrun. You either love them a lot, or hate them a lot. In the past Elves have been associated with Gary Stu or Mary Sue, often being an 'idealized race' with really no point or distinguishing character flaws. They are 'perfect' or 'idealistic' in some way, which often makes the stereotypical elf one-dimensional. "Perfect" characters are not interesting in my opinion.

As a former HOMER of Elves, I am beginning to come with the gripes that elves aren't as "Cool" as I thought they were. Honestly, the past few PC sessions I have been playing, I have made all elves. They have not been fun characters to play. In future, I am planning on trying a dwarf and a ork with human elements to them, and see how that goes.

I want to get a general consensus. Want to form a survey or a research study on this topic.

Elves. Do you love them, hate them, or apathetic? And if so, why? What are your feelings and opinions on Shadowrun elves?

[Weaver95]

Neither really.

Alhtough the vampire player in my current campaign is starting to see the downsides to playing a bloodsucking hellbeast.

[Ravor]

Well personally I figure that alot of the "bad rap" that elves get are because of the way people have routinely played them, even you mentioned that you ussually play the character as an elitist snob anf I've found that is how many people play elves.

However with that said, in most general backgrounds elves are the "most magical" and hence "most advanced" but yet their civilazation is always in decline when based off the actual rules they should still be amongst the ruling class.

[tete]

What about the troll always being stupid (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[SincereAgape]

What about the troll always being stupid (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The troll bouncer, bodyguard, or tough guy is getting cliche too.

Although :thumbs up to Kaz Yakumara from Ghost Cartels:

[The Jake]

I don't like their stat bonuses in SR4. Sure they're costly but if you're going to play another race, mechanically they are the most superior - which I dislike. Sure Orks get free points but this only matters if you're playing a physical character. Dwarves need much more love IMHO.

- J.

[Chrysalis]

I don't normally play the metahumans, but when I do it is elves. I think the inherent betterness should be turned into a kind of speciesism. Still, most elves in the older books really peed honey and had dandelions coming out of their asses. They also glittered in the sunlight.

But then again Shadowrun is a gamist universe, so elves are a social element, while trolls and orks are bruisers.

[SincereAgape]

I don't normally play the metahumans, but when I do it is elves. I think the inherent betterness should be turned into a kind of speciesism. Still, most elves in the older books really peed honey and had dandelions coming out of their asses. They also glittered in the sunlight.

But then again Shadowrun is a gamist universe, so elves are a social element, while trolls and orks are bruisers.

Forgot to point out that Elven Females have always been portrayed a lot differently then a Male Elf. Elf Females are the exotic "Hot" Femme Fatale. They are the object of most men's lustful desires in Shadowrun stories. From a stereotypical standpoint, elven females suffer from the Women in the Refrigerator syndrome. Meaning they are used as plot devices to make the lead male antagonist 'look' better or eventually become their main squeeze. Perhaps this fulfills the average male gamer's fantasy.

Popular Shadowrun Fiction examples.

1. Sam Verner and Hart.
2. Ryan Mercury and Nadja Daviar.
3. Jack Skater and Archangel.

[Not of this Worl...]

I love them, but the way they've been covered has been ... spotty.

In earlier editions their stats sucked. Now the stats are getting too good.

The idea that Immortal Elves have been hiding around quietly manipulating things is awesome the first few times for new players. The idea that Immortal Elves are an Illuminati conspiracy responsible for everything really, really sucks.

A lot of fun with any of the metahuman races though comes from clashing stereotypes. Hence the Elven Decker in SR1-2

Try these as well:
Dwarven Supremacist
Mrs. Manners (Goblinized)
Elven Street Bum (I'm too pretty to work)
Dwarven pickpocket (just the right height)
Ork Child Prodigy (but you won't live long enough for the SINners to care)
Troll Diplomat (Talk Quietly and carry a LARGE stick)

[crash2029]

Personally, since within SR elves are just a subspecies of humanity (Homo Sapiens Nobilis), I see elves as psychologically human. Imagine a human. Imagine that human with the inherent physical qualities of the nobilis metatype. Factor in societal issues and pressures.

Long story short: Elves are human. Just like trolls, orks, dwarfs, changelings, vampires and lawyers. The only way elves are psychcologically different from humans is the same way whites, blacks, asians, latins, christians, atheists, buddhusts, teenagers, skaters and nerds are from each other. The only lines that divide us are the ones we draw.

Just my 0.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Tachi]

Well, you can call me Minimist Maximus if you like, but I usually choose metatype based on what gives me the best deal on the character concept I'm using. If I'm building a spirit heavy mage, I definitely go for the elf. On the other hand, I once played a troll face with a PhD in communications... so, uh, yeah.

I don't hate elves, don't particularly like them either. As others mentioned above, I dislike tendencies to overwork the clichés, the 'haughty' elf is actually one of my bigger pet peeves, right behind the 'big dumb troll'. Normally I like or dislike characters as individuals, though I sometimes actually come to dislike players due to their lack of imagination when it comes to character attitudes and behavior.

I have, occasionally, found myself being automatically hostile to elven characters before they give me a reason, though. I don't mean to, just making subconscious assumptions based on past observations most likely. Since I noticed it the first time, I've tried to avoid it. Doesn't always work though. As was also mentioned above, I think it's most likely a consequence of how others have always played elves. When ninety percent of the elves you encounter are arrogant assholes itching to prove how much better they are than the 'inferior races', there's bound to be a negative backlash.

Long story short: Elves are human. Just like trolls, orks, dwarfs, changelings, vampires and lawyers.

I don't care what you say, lawyers are NOT human, their humanity was surgically removed during law school, especially trial attorneys.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

This seems a good venue. I was at Gencon a couple of years ago, and I saw a T-Shirt I really wanted. The shirt showed an Elf that was cowering and looked thoroughly miserable. The caption said "Have you spat on an elf today?"

Does anyone know where to find that t-shirt, or the art that went on it?

[Chrysalis]

Ask him: http://greymalkindesigns.com/phpBB3/viewto...f=26&p=1701

[Orcus Blackweath...]

No link to purchase a shirt, I will investigate that site some more. Thanks for the tip.

[Kerenshara]

Every race has certain plusses and minuses.

Saw a picture once, a spoof on SuccessoriesTM, where it shows somebody dodging bullets while returning fire and doing base jumping. The caption was "With enough Edge, who needs skill?" That extra free point is pretty wiz, chummers, if you're a human. Humans are still dominant worldwide, so predjudice is still in their favor after all this time.

Trolls, due as much to their lower caps (thank heavens they aren't LOST points any more) in the mental areas as anything else, tend to drift to seriously physical endeavors where they can trully excell. Stereotypes exist for a reason: they are usually based to one extent or another on fact and common perception.

Orcs, while physically tough, are still fairly close to baseline homo sapiens sapiens. You can do a lot with them, though the predjudice against them is extremely strong. That's a significant drawback.

Dwarves... well, they don't lose much (yes, I know the elves don't lose ANYTHING, but what they gain isn't quite as ... central), and they get something unique, special, and REALLY important for several reasons: a point of WILlpower. That helps against most spells, it's critical if you worry about Drain or Fading, it can mean an extra point of Stun on your damage track, and it helps when defending in social situations. Discount the "halfers" at your peril. Oh, and extra body and strength, plus that resistance of theirs.

Finally, Elves. Yadda yadda super efete whatever. They get Charisma which is nice for a "social" character, and very nice if you're in a "Charisma" tradition, magically. And a whole point of AGIlity, one of the EASIEST stats to increase with 'ware. And lowlight vision, which does nothing when you rip out your orbs and stuff in chrome. They live a long time. That's why the gods created Leonization for the "lesser" races. Oh, and all three "lesser" metahuman races tend to view them as "dandelion eaters". And that smug superiority of theirs rubs a LOT of people the wrong way, meaning their inherent "prettyness" tends to hit a solid barrier of "I don't give a drek WHAT you look like, stretch".

Each race has a place, and I don't think any is worse than the others. But that's just MY opinion.

[Ayeohx]

Elves are known to be manipulative. They tend to be pretty and people idolize them because of this. That's why you had a bunch of elf posers running amuck. And then people learned that there may be immortal elves running around, well, that's just going to up the mistrust a bit. Conspiracy nuts would go crazy. And rightfully so.

[the_real_elwood]

I don't hate elves per se. I hate people that love elves. And then what usually happens is, those people make me hate elves, at least in that particular circumstances.

But I think that elves in Shadowrun are particularly well done. Sure, they like to think they're superior, but Tir Tairngire sure ain't no paradise. Tir na Nog isn't either. And really, neither of the "elven homelands" are major players in world affairs. So there's really not a whole lot there for me to get all worked up about.

[Ayeohx]

Ya know, I'm going to step on a few toes here, but I'm going to spew it.

Cliches tend to come around for a reason. Society, and in these cases, genetics, play a role in shaping an individual. It takes an exceptional being and the right circumstances to throw off the shackles of the norm and forge themselves into something much different than what everything says they should be.

If someone wants to play "the stupid troll" or "angry ork" in your game work with them to develop the character's personality and background. Go through the 20 questions and give them karma rewards for filling it out. It's partially the gamemaster's fault for not having interesting PCs in his campaign. If you've got character sheets with little more than "surely dwarf" and "uppity elf" at your table maybe you need to invest a bit more time in working with your gamers and the development of their characters.

[BlueMax]

Social and Plotline:Apathetic
Mechanically: Hate them. The way shadowrun 4A is played near me, Elves are the most advantageous race.

BlueMax

[Khyron]

It depends on the character personality to me. If you're playing a character in the shadows, that's a whole culture unto itself and the the pretty fop elf face is no different then the pretty fop ork face because it's the job, not the race the defines them.

I don't believe the metas have been around long enough for any serious racial organization, and I don't believe the Tirs should even exist, not yet anyways, and after all the VITAS crap, there shouldn't of been a united elf population large enough to sustain it anyways without dedicated baby factories.

But I am currently playing an Elf gunner who firmly believes the Tirs are full of Larpers who lost touch with reality.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I had made a looooooooooooong post talking about loving/hating elves but a 1 second loss of power made me lose everything... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)
Anyways, from a OOC perspective, I would blame Tolkien and D&D for any prejudice or lack of against elves, specially the movies (which, in my not so humble opinion were awful, both LotR and the D&D movies).

I like to play as Elves, whenever I had the chance of actually be a player instead of the GM in a game where Elves exist I played as an Elf (if anyone cares, the only happened 3 times, every other time I was the GM).

Currently, in our 3-months-with-no-game-Shadowrun-campaign I've been playing as an Elf, a japanese one by the way, with the Human looking quality (which were a series of surgeries during his teens). The campaign is in Denver, and so far, I hated every Elf I've met with the exception of one. I always tell them: hey, chummer, you think that Trolls and Orks are marginalized? Go to Japan and walk outside for a while, those pointy ears and your beautiful bone structure will look even better after being beaten the crap out of you...

[Glyph]

Mechanics-wise, elves are pricey, but you are paying for the specific set of advantages they have. So while some people find them overpriced, I find them to be overall balanced.

Fluff-wise, I unabashedly love how Shadowrun has depicted elves, both playing up the stereotypes and turning them on their ear, and also showing everyday, average elves who have to deal with all of the baggage that comes from being an elf.

The only things I didn't like were how immortal elves were handled (a bunch of overpowered Gary Stu's who took the places of too many important historical figures), and how the Tirs were handled (like the JIS, they should have had the totalitarianism turned down a few notches - they could have been great, atmospheric places to run, instead of a headache to run).

[LurkerOutThere]

As a matter of choice race I don't mind elves at all, I don't find them mechanically problematic at all. But then again I always play either trolls who tear things apart or humans who edge things into a fine mist.

From a cultural standpoint: I don't mind normal elves. I HATE the idea of secret elven overlords who were awake during the down cycle and running things. I HATE "purebreed" nations equally as much whether it's Nazi elves, Nazi Native American's or anyone else.

[KCKitsune]

Long story short: Elves are human. Just like trolls, orks, dwarfs, changelings, vampires and lawyers.

Crash, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Lawyers are not human. They are a form of diseased scum that bubbles out from the darkest pits of Hell to inflict pain and suffering on the rest of humanity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[MikeKozar]

But I am currently playing an Elf gunner who firmly believes the Tirs are full of Larpers who lost touch with reality.

Awesome.

I think it was one of the earlier editions of Shadowrun that really sold me on Elves being alright as PCs - they had a sample character, a contact or archtype, which was an elven decker just trying to make ends meet. Her short bio was to the effect of: Some people say elves are magic and beauty and power, but you must have never gotten your invite to that party. You don't have magic, you don't know any CEOs or senators, and you can't schmooze your way out of a traffic ticket. You're damn good with a cyberdeck, though, and doing the best you can to make a living with it.

I despise 'the pretty people' on general principles, but that write up made me realize that in Shadowrun, Elves are just as screwed as the rest of us. They might not be as marginalized as orcs and trolls, but nobody goes around muttering 'never trust a troll' like it's deep wisdom, either. I'll give elves the same shot I give anybody else, which ain't all that much of a favor, but it'll have to do.