Elves. Love 'em or Hate 'em?, Most Polarizing Race in Shadowrun. Options

[Megu]

My players started to hate them, I think, after the elf PC in our group stabbed everyone in the back in a way that totally fit the stereotype of the haughty, scheming Tir elf. Then everyone rolled Irish anti-elven militant, an anti-meta Islamic jihadist and a Welsh troll hacker who hates elves because his elven father abandoned him. Not to mention the surviving PC who's still chasing down the elf somewhere in Laos.

I personally think elves are an interesting vehicle to think about the lifespan and the aging process, if nothing else. And I mean, come on, at some point I think everyone wants to play a glamorous bishounen, even in a cyberpunk game. That said, I think a lot of the stuff with the Tirs has been pretty interesting and well thought out.

[Cthulhudreams]

Elves are bad because they are so suboptimal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Whipstitch]

Sure Orks get free points but this only matters if you're playing a physical character.

- J.

I've never agreed with this notion, to be honest. It's not just free points, it's free points that aren't counted under the 200 bp attribute cap! Being an ork means you can use Body as a virtual dump stat without being doomed to fail stabilization tests; it's the dump stat that frankly nobody really wants to dump. If you want a character with decent across the board stats and can live with losing a die or two on Logic/Charisma tests then "weak" ork with a minimum invested in Strength/Body is your man. Heck, a lot of the time you won't even really miss the Logic/Charisma dice because the sheer cost effectiveness of orks makes it easy to shore it up those tests in other ways.

[Fuchs]

Given leonization being cheaper in 4E than in earlier editions the long lives are not anything special anymore.

[Saint Sithney]

In a climate where racial discrimination and class warfare are at the forefront of a lot of plot and action, it's easy to hate elves. They're the beneficiaries of prejudice, the pretty privileged ones, who exist on a different level from the common man. It makes it really easy to hate them, as virtual symbols of aristocracy, with their private little clubs in Oregon and Ireland, fortunate sons and daughters all.

But how is that prejudice different than any other? That backlash against the elite, the not-so-subtle homophobia of the term "effete," the dismissal of environmental concerns, as if their environment is not your environment, is all just more minority bashing. It's just the suits in charge using people against each other in order to keep them off their own backs. It's the same trap it ever was, and it's always a shame when another foot steps into it. Truth is, elf or not, you should never trust anyone in the shadows. Hell, I don't even trust myself.

[Orcus Blackweath...]

As they are written, the fluff surrounding them, elves suck. I have played several of them myself, and I treat them as just another guy. None of them speak sperethiel, and and they all pretty much think it would suck to be a peasant in the Tir. All of the meta-human races are basically the same. They had rough childhoods from all of the bigot humans, they all know that there is a not so glass ceiling over their heads, and they all know that life sucks when you are down. Seems like a tailor made background for a shadowrunner.

[Stahlseele]

I have nothing against elves. There should be one hanging from every Tree!
There are many elves in my life. And i only have a predator!

Yes, i do VERY MUCH hate them. Because of how they are portrayed most of the time.
ALSO because of how people tend to play them.
Every last single one of my characters gets the racist stigma against elves for free.
Aside from the proof of concept elf characters i made just to show that i can, indeed, make a viable elven character despite me hating their guts.
Only reason i don't like playing dwarves is because of all the short jokes and the small plays on words.
Give me a Troll or Ork any day. I LOVE playing an Intelligence 5 Troll as the big dumb strong-man, while being a machiavellian sheming backstabbing mastermind behind the scenes.
Nobody expects the 3m big muscle packet that runs screaming into every fight to be the brains behind anything ^^
Humans are just too bland for me.
I have, right now, a very big problem with one of my buddies and sometimes GM, because he is actually playing an elven character and playing him so that i am starting to like him too x.x

[nezumi]

I've never been a big fan of elves. In fact, I specifically dislike them. And here's why...


Basically since LotR, elves have been portrayed as snooty and superior. This got worse with D&D, since apparently Gygax loved wizards and elves at the exclusion of all else, and elves were pretty super compared to most other races. Ask anyone outside of the SR family what they imagine an elf like, and they have an image of someone tall, elegant, beautiful, strong, well-spoken, intelligent, forever young, technologically superior - in a word, perfect.

In Shadowrun, some of that carries over. In some ways, SR handled elves very well - everyone expects them to be beautiful, yadda yadda, but they aren't always, and they have to eat soy just like the rest of us. Some elves are haughty because of their background, some aren't. But they're all still guys who get kicked in the head by the cyberpunk universe. In some cases they aren't handled well - immortal elves apparently invented and did everything worth mention, and really are super. Leonardo Da Vinci was an elf. So was Richard the Lion-hearted. If it's worth noticing, it was done by an elf.

Stat-wise, elves really were super. Elves were the only race with the all-important bonus to Quickness (which fed into every firearm skill, combat pool, reaction, rigging pool and so on) and the only race with no penalties (aside from humans). 1st and 2nd edition, they were the all-around best. Other races were good at their specialization, but elves were good at EVERYTHING and bad at nothing. And they still didn't age, so there was no reason why, in 50 years, elves shouldn't be the CEO of everything (and were still beautiful and were feeling distinctly not cyberpunk).

A major result of the first and last point was elves were the favorite race of munchkins, newbies, and people who wanted to play batman - i.e. all of the most irritating players. Remembering back, 80% of my least favorite players played elves. It was irritating and stupid. The number of elf lone wolves, elf lesbian ice queens/sluts, elf super mages ... It got old.


Elves were a little more balanced in SR3, but you only realized it if you sat down and did the math (which most of these people didn't). I understand it's more balanced in SR4, which is good. But all of those pre-concieved notions about elves being awesome (or munchie) still linger.

[Blade]

Elves are the Sixth World Jews.
'Nuff Said.

[Zak]

Love 'em or Hate 'em ?

Where is the Shoot 'em option?

[Prime Mover]

My impression of elves come a player I had during first edition. An aloof Elven Street Sami by the street name of Gee. He just played him so well, aloof without being an ass and holding to a strict code of honor that he upheld without causing team conflict. Professional, confident and calculating.

[SincereAgape]

I've never been a big fan of elves. In fact, I specifically dislike them. And here's why...


Basically since LotR, elves have been portrayed as snooty and superior. This got worse with D&D, since apparently Gygax loved wizards and elves at the exclusion of all else, and elves were pretty super compared to most other races. Ask anyone outside of the SR family what they imagine an elf like, and they have an image of someone tall, elegant, beautiful, strong, well-spoken, intelligent, forever young, technologically superior - in a word, perfect.

In Shadowrun, some of that carries over. In some ways, SR handled elves very well - everyone expects them to be beautiful, yadda yadda, but they aren't always, and they have to eat soy just like the rest of us. Some elves are haughty because of their background, some aren't. But they're all still guys who get kicked in the head by the cyberpunk universe. In some cases they aren't handled well - immortal elves apparently invented and did everything worth mention, and really are super. Leonardo Da Vinci was an elf. So was Richard the Lion-hearted. If it's worth noticing, it was done by an elf.

Stat-wise, elves really were super. Elves were the only race with the all-important bonus to Quickness (which fed into every firearm skill, combat pool, reaction, rigging pool and so on) and the only race with no penalties (aside from humans). 1st and 2nd edition, they were the all-around best. Other races were good at their specialization, but elves were good at EVERYTHING and bad at nothing. And they still didn't age, so there was no reason why, in 50 years, elves shouldn't be the CEO of everything (and were still beautiful and were feeling distinctly not cyberpunk).

A major result of the first and last point was elves were the favorite race of munchkins, newbies, and people who wanted to play batman - i.e. all of the most irritating players. Remembering back, 80% of my least favorite players played elves. It was irritating and stupid. The number of elf lone wolves, elf lesbian ice queens/sluts, elf super mages ... It got old.


Elves were a little more balanced in SR3, but you only realized it if you sat down and did the math (which most of these people didn't). I understand it's more balanced in SR4, which is good. But all of those pre-concieved notions about elves being awesome (or munchie) still linger.

Well put Nezumi.

-Not so much pointing out the character concepts of Elves. Shadowrun does do a better job then D&D of allowing players to create the A-typical D&D type of elf.

-Given character concepts; anyone who is stuck up, haughty, arrogant, racist of any metarace of cultural race will not be liked by most people. There are neat Elven characters such as the SR1 Decker trying to meet ends meet, etc.

But in some cases there is still the stigma of "Elf." they have to break through or face when interacting with most NPCs or PCs for the first time. My question is centering around the elf race in general (mechanically, sterotypically, what they represent etc.) So far it seems most people support the fact that elves are disliked or even hated by players.

I for one love elves because of their elitist attitudes, improved benefits, and physical appereance superority they have over the other races. This is changing though the more and more I play the race.

[Stahlseele]

Addendum: in SR3, because it was linked to quickness, Elves could wear more armor than humans, dwarves, orks and trolls . . without problem . .

[darthmord]

I always liked Humans, Elves, and Trolls. I have never played a dwarf or ork. Why? Anything a dwarf could do, a troll could do better IMO. Orks? Eww, I'm not playing a stinky stupid ork.

Oddly enough, all my players when I used to GM SR1 & SR2 all played humans, elves, and trolls (in order of preference, though we always did have at least 1 troll in the party).

[Semerkhet]

Totally independently, all of the players in my recently started game created elves. Being an all-elf group presents some advantages and disadvantages, many of which have already been covered in this topic. They slide into human/elf-dominated high society easier, but need to work extra hard to make connections to some other metahuman communities. I just apply the appropriate social test modifiers and let them go at it.

One of the things I like about Shadowrun elves is that there is a lot of diversity.
In my group you have:
-the ethnically Japanese elf who grew up middle class in the Renraku arcology and survived the shutdown as a teenager.
-the elf that grew up poor in Redmond and ran the streets with the Ancients.
-the elf from the Tir whose parents gave him an awful Tolkien'esque name and immersed him in the Tir's "elven culture."
-the elf also from the Tir, but from an upper-class corporate upbringing and who couldn't care less about "elven culture."

End result is that even in a group composed exclusively of elves, there can be a lot of diversity in background and personality.

[crash2029]

I have, right now, a very big problem with one of my buddies and sometimes GM, because he is actually playing an elven character and playing him so that i am starting to like him too x.x

You poor bastard.

I am playing an elf face in a game and his personality is kind of a composite Neal Caffrey/Templeton Peck/Patrick Jane thing.

I remember GM'ing back in SR1 for my dad. Goddamn I hated his elves. It was, and is, pretty much all he plays. I remember telling him that his elf shaman, who had never even been to the Tir, did NOT speak elvish. And his "I brush my hair back over my ear" got really old. He was the damn posterchild for the Tolkien elf wannabe. Gah. I consider it a personal victory that I can still keep an open mind about elves. At least when he is playing elves he isn't playing shapers, SURGE'd animal-things, and bizarre metavarients. I still treasure the look on his face when he was told that for a certain D&D game he had to play a human fighter. Good times. Good times.

[Sixgun_Sage]

They're people, shaped by their circumstances just like anybody else, that being said, I rarely play them and kinda find them annoying. Eventually every position of power inside corporations will be held by elves and dwarves in SR because of their long natural lifespans and Leonization treatments. It doesn't matter if they don't start out the best, they can just wait you out. That means that elves will tend to control politics, after all, if you are an elven CEO and are thinking of backing a candidate inside your political party who is more likely to represent your interests, the human, or the fellow elf? Fund Raising tends to predict victors in politics.

[Ascalaphus]

I expect particularly the elves are likely to take over. They have more Charisma than everyone else, and no mental drawbacks. Combined with their lifespan, they'll be most succesful in places when you get more power the longer you stay around and the better you can talk. In short, politics and bussiness (and perhaps institutionalized magic.)

But there's an "upside": people will see it coming. And they'll fear it, and try to do something about it. You'll see people raving about the "elvish conspiracy" and the "elven world order" like conspiracy nuts will talk about zionist plots do now. Except that they'll be vastly more plausible...

In many games with my friends I'm the one they all agitate against because they think I'm plotting against them, and because I win often. I do enjoy the challenge of trying to maneuver people against each other who want to team up against me. They know better, but I can often keep them from acting on it. Hence I do enjoy elves in SR (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

I'd be more than happy to have the people who control major business trends be the long-lived long view types. It's better than a bunch of guys who don't care about what happens 50 years from now, because they'll be dead. In fact, I see that as a major detriment for elves in the business world. To be a corporate raider, you have to be thinking about "How much money can I make before next Thursday?" It seems to me that a 100-year span of thinking that, and only that, each and every day, without the approaching promise of retirement, well, I figure that would drive anyone insane. The shorter-lived races have the impetus needed to be savage business types, because they are short lived. Besides, we all know that, when it comes down to it, a person is just a person, and profit always comes before people, no matter how pretty they are.

[Cheshyr]

Our current gaming group is 2 dwarves, an orc, and a troll. Elves and humans are boring, IMO. Playing a human might be fun, for the challenge. I can't really find a reason to play an elf... ok, ok, if you need charisma for casting or social situations... or if that extra agility is really that important. From a backstory angle, elves are just too... remote. I guess I should give it some more thought, but except for game mechanic reasons, I'm not terribly inclined to play an elf.

[darthmord]

I'd be more than happy to have the people who control major business trends be the long-lived long view types. It's better than a bunch of guys who don't care about what happens 50 years from now, because they'll be dead. In fact, I see that as a major detriment for elves in the business world. To be a corporate raider, you have to be thinking about "How much money can I make before next Thursday?" It seems to me that a 100-year span of thinking that, and only that, each and every day, without the approaching promise of retirement, well, I figure that would drive anyone insane. The shorter-lived races have the impetus needed to be savage business types, because they are short lived. Besides, we all know that, when it comes down to it, a person is just a person, and profit always comes before people, no matter how pretty they are.

Yet an Elf who has that rapacious short-term view coupled with the long-term view is a dangerous SOB. In the end, that sort of outlook isn't that different than Dragons and Great Dragons.

Could look at H. He's bored. He's tired of the long-view. He craves excitement and adventure. Those happen to be short-term view things. Even the long-viewed want to have fun.

[Whipstitch]

Keep in mind that elves live in a culture that is in many ways defined by the shorter lived races, whereas dragons are haughty and have their own culture and traditions to fall back on. I'm not so sure the "long view" is really as natural to the elves as some people here are implying. If nothing else, the majority of elves would be conditioned by a society that doesn't think in such terms and has defined what success means long ago. Plus, there's the li'l sticky issue that taking a truly long view on things is damned near impossible. Change is always on the way. Great Dragons and IEs manage to pull it off, but that's mostly because they're ridiculous creatures that are powered by plot. Their ages and intellects are just the handwavium that lets it happen.

[Ayeohx]

They're people, shaped by their circumstances just like anybody else, that being said, I rarely play them and kinda find them annoying. Eventually every position of power inside corporations will be held by elves and dwarves in SR because of their long natural lifespans and Leonization treatments. It doesn't matter if they don't start out the best, they can just wait you out. That means that elves will tend to control politics, after all, if you are an elven CEO and are thinking of backing a candidate inside your political party who is more likely to represent your interests, the human, or the fellow elf? Fund Raising tends to predict victors in politics.

I think that was mentioned in a Shadowrun ministory somewhere, about people being suspicious of their elven coworkers who take management positions and then never retire because of their lifespans. In fact, I think that every shadowrunner should have a run that involves knocking off some elf manager so a human can take his job. May even be the next game I run...

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, that's actually a concept that the writers have explicitly mentioned before, just not when dealing with corporate culture. The Ancients have been traditionally too well-equipped and too well-connected to suffer much attrition from other gangs, and the old guard isn't old, at least not physically. So according to Runner Havens, some of the young guns are thinking of spreading their wings a bit since the only way to rise through the ranks is when something "unfortunate" happens.

[Ironworker]

If you are going to have the "Tolkein" races in any game setting you pretty much have to have elves. However I have little sympathy for people who play mostly or only elves because they tend to be munchkins. Even if they think they aren't they really are munchkins and min maxers. That's because Elves are always the best race for that type of play. Shadowrun is no different.

Elves also tend to be played by people who forget that Shadowrunners are mercenary and criminal scumbags working for pay. Perhaps 1 out of 10 players play an unique elf. Playing stereotypes doesn't really bother me if the player is playing it up and doing a good job but elf players usually think they are great roleplayers too even when they are playing the worst kind of stereotype.

Right now I'm playing a kinda stereotypical angry Orc street sam. He hates everyone not an Orc and Elves most of all. He only tolerates the elves he works with because they are good at their end of the job. I play him as an unabashed bigot criminal scumbag. The very point of the character is that he is not unique but I don't pretend that he is. Our group is actually made up pretty much only of Orcs and Elves so it's a lot of fun to play the over the top Orc rights activist.

Someone else said it. Elves are always the "fortunate sons". Just accept it and don't take in game crap personally.