IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Does the NAN have anything similar to the Shoah project?, A matter of sensitivity, so play nice kids.
Weaver95
post Oct 30 2009, 07:09 PM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 206
Joined: 29-September 09
Member No.: 17,687



So one day I got to thinking about Shadowrun's back story. There are some similarities to the re-education camps to the actual, real world camps from WWII where so many jews and political dissidents suffered. As I pondered the link between the two, I considered the real world history of what happened afterward. The jews founded Israel, and for a number of years they hunted down the Nazis and brought them to justice. In fact, one could even see parallels to shadowruns operated by the Israeli government, even going so far as to kidnap some of the big names and haul them to Israel for a trial and eventual execution. Now, i'm skipping over a lot of the details but that's essentially what happened. The Shoah project is the jewish dedication to the idea that the massacre should never be allowed to happen again. They record the testimony of the survivors, and make the evidence of the atrocities available to any/all who want to learn the truth.

So back to shadowrun. I've not seen anything in the official game back story about the NAN that would indicate they took a similar route. Did the NAN hunt down the camp guards? I would presume they educate their children about what happened...but that's mere presumption on my part. Thoughts? Comments?

Play nice though. I realize that i'm treading close to some dangerous territory here. It's just that I take dedication to the 'reality' of my campaign/story arcs very seriously. I could see some interesting campaign ideas coming out of such a project from the NAN...and I think it's a subject area that might be a good place to further develop the back story for Shadowrun.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Oct 30 2009, 07:11 PM
Post #2


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



Magical attempted genocide doesn't count?

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Weaver95
post Oct 30 2009, 07:15 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 206
Joined: 29-September 09
Member No.: 17,687



QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Oct 30 2009, 02:11 PM) *
Magical attempted genocide doesn't count?

~J


One could argue that the Ghost Dance was the NAN using the only weapon they had left in order to strike back against a better armed opponent. And i'm also fairly certain (again, this is mere speculation on my part) that Howling Coyote was given the knowledge of the Ghost Dance by someone (or several someones) for reasons of their own that had nothing to do with the re-education camps themselves. Or even the well being of the tribes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
djinni
post Oct 30 2009, 07:19 PM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 777
Joined: 22-November 06
Member No.: 9,934



QUOTE (Weaver95 @ Oct 30 2009, 02:09 PM) *
So back to shadowrun. I've not seen anything in the official game back story about the NAN that would indicate they took a similar route. Did the NAN hunt down the camp guards? I would presume they educate their children about what happened...but that's mere presumption on my part. Thoughts? Comments?

there have been worse atrocities, and more lesser ones throughout history the one you cited is just the most famous. and one of the only ones to have the backing of the rest of the world to assist in the justice.
its not out of the ordinary for the oppressed to simply be glad they are free and return to a life away from what happened
I'm not going to touch on specifics due to the sensitive nature of the subject but you can google most of the famous incidents
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Weaver95
post Oct 30 2009, 07:22 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 206
Joined: 29-September 09
Member No.: 17,687



QUOTE (djinni @ Oct 30 2009, 02:19 PM) *
there have been worse atrocities, and more lesser ones throughout history the one you cited is just the most famous. and one of the only ones to have the backing of the rest of the world to assist in the justice.
its not out of the ordinary for the oppressed to simply be glad they are free and return to a life away from what happened
I'm not going to touch on specifics due to the sensitive nature of the subject but you can google most of the famous incidents


well yeah, but that goes to my point - the ghost dance changed the world, but it's one of the least discussed items in the back story of the shadowrun setting. none of the tribal societies seemed to organize any effort to bring the camp guards (or their bosses) to justice. And given the magical backing they had at their disposal, I'd think they'd be not just motivated to strike back directly at their former torturers but that they would have the means at their disposal to do so without exposing themselves to any danger.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Oct 30 2009, 07:49 PM
Post #6


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



I'm not finding details on the Ghost Dance in my collection, but I would quite seriously suggest that the reason is because they already murdered them all (or most of them) in that event.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Not of this Worl...
post Oct 30 2009, 07:52 PM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 284
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Seattle Metroplex
Member No.: 217



Capturing prison camp guards and putting them on trial before the STC would make a GOOD Shadowrun.

How would a presumably mostly Anglo group of runners feel about it?
How much of a Sadist was this camp guard who escaped?
How much of an "everyday Joe" with a family has the former guard become?

If you like runs with moral dilemmas (and I LOVE them) then this could be a great premise.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LurkerOutThere
post Oct 30 2009, 09:36 PM
Post #8


Runner
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,946
Joined: 1-June 09
From: Omaha
Member No.: 17,234



1)Evidently the NA Concentration camps were nothing like the nazi death camps as enough magical indian badasses came out of them to start a multifront war against the most powerful nation on the planet and it's northern neighbor.

2)The parallel further breaks down as the Jews were imprisoned because of lung standing racial bias and scapegoating where as the NA were incarcerated (justifiably or not) because NA radicals tried to more or less end the world in nuclear fire. A sentimen that more or less held true when as soon as they gained the abiloity to cause more mass scale death and destruction the NAN pulled things like Los Alamos.

3) Israel is only able to get away with extraditing nazi war criminals back from Israel because the government that is responsible for those crimes is now defunct and the world court has standing orders for the extradition. If the NAN government did the same to UCAS citizens the UCAS could ask the corporate court to intervene or go to war themselves. Given the NAN's anti-corporate rheteric I cannot see them having very many friends amongst the powers that be outside of Horizon.

The reason the GGD isn't discussed is because it's an embarrassingly racist piece of tripe that serves no other purpose storyline wise then to isolate Seattle, which is the primary game setting. From a rational or geopolitical standpoint, or within the context of the games own explanation of magic it doesn't work.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Weaver95
post Oct 30 2009, 10:56 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 206
Joined: 29-September 09
Member No.: 17,687



QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Oct 30 2009, 04:36 PM) *
The reason the GGD isn't discussed is because it's an embarrassingly racist piece of tripe that serves no other purpose storyline wise then to isolate Seattle, which is the primary game setting. From a rational or geopolitical standpoint, or within the context of the games own explanation of magic it doesn't work.



ooook then. sorry I asked.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Oct 31 2009, 01:02 AM
Post #10


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



Well unless things start getting interesting the only piece I'm prepared to say about the NAN is this; It simply doesn't work and there are too many holes that the devs have tried to plug that we've basicallt ended up with at least three different versions of the story that all contradict each other on key parts.


I can buy the NAN being able to pull off the Great Ghost Dance Ritual itself given that they were handed it on a silver platter by an agent of the Horrors, but for the NAN to actually win we have to forget the fact that 1% of everyone's beliefs just became real, and the "ancient shaman rituals" are no more valid than a Christian praying to the ArcheAngels or even a Star Wars Geek wielding The Force to crush his enemies.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Oct 31 2009, 01:07 AM
Post #11


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 30 2009, 09:02 PM) *
but for the NAN to actually win we have to forget the fact that 1% of everyone's beliefs just became real, and the "ancient shaman rituals" are no more valid than a Christian praying to the ArcheAngels or even a Star Wars Geek wielding The Force to crush his enemies.

Wait, what?

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Oct 31 2009, 01:25 AM
Post #12


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



(IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) Search your feelings, young Kagetenshi for you know it to be true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Oct 31 2009, 01:33 AM
Post #13


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



On the contrary—precisely two beliefs turned out to be legitimate, one of which was native American tribal shamanism.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Oct 31 2009, 01:39 AM
Post #14


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



I disagree with you as strongly as possible, we've been told time and time again that Magic doesn't care what you do, merely that you believe it is going to work, and I'd point to the multitude of Traditions out there as proof, hell, at least one of them doesn't even believe in Magic but that doesn't stop them from shaping mana and frying some poor slot's brain.


Also remember that Big D is on the record as being amused by the Traditions and the "self imposed limitations" if I remember his words correctly.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kagetenshi
post Oct 31 2009, 01:58 AM
Post #15


Manus Celer Dei
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 17,006
Joined: 30-December 02
From: Boston
Member No.: 3,802



It does indeed sound like we disagree as strongly as possible. Despite pollution from later sourcebooks, the core message has been that magic works in two ways and two alone for Sixth World metahumanity. The psionic adherents are given crippling disadvantages to reflect the fact that they are, ultimately, deeply wrong about how their power works.

Metahumanity magic is fairly laughable to Dunkelzahn, I'd imagine.

~J
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Oct 31 2009, 02:03 AM
Post #16


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



Aye, but the mere fact that the Psions are able to do anything at all while refusing to believe in magic is rather telling in my eyes, plus we've been given countless Traditions that aren't crippled in the slightest, hell before Fourth Edition it seemed like almost every last one had to have their own "special" ruleset to reflect their differences.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LurkerOutThere
post Oct 31 2009, 02:26 AM
Post #17


Runner
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,946
Joined: 1-June 09
From: Omaha
Member No.: 17,234



Ravor is right, it hasn't been a two tradition game for a very long time and wasn't a two tradition game for very long at all.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LurkerOutThere
post Oct 31 2009, 02:26 AM
Post #18


Runner
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 2,946
Joined: 1-June 09
From: Omaha
Member No.: 17,234



Ravor is right, it hasn't been a two tradition game for a very long time and wasn't a two tradition game for very long at all.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Oct 31 2009, 02:55 AM
Post #19


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



(IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) Now repeat after me, Ravor is always right, even when he's utterly and completely wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CanadianWolverin...
post Nov 2 2009, 05:11 PM
Post #20


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 574
Joined: 22-June 09
From: Ucluelet - Tofino - Nanaimo Salish-Sahide Council
Member No.: 17,309



QUOTE (Not of this World @ Oct 30 2009, 01:52 PM) *
Capturing prison camp guards and putting them on trial before the STC would make a GOOD Shadowrun.

How would a presumably mostly Anglo group of runners feel about it?
How much of a Sadist was this camp guard who escaped?
How much of an "everyday Joe" with a family has the former guard become?

If you like runs with moral dilemmas (and I LOVE them) then this could be a great premise.


I am so stealing this idea and running with it. Thank you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

And on the subject of the various nations that are NAN being possible thanks to SR magic, going to have agree to disagree, which should be apparent from the NAN Fading thread. Long live the Salish-Sahidhe Council, fuck the UCAS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Nov 2 2009, 05:13 PM
Post #21


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



To each their own, I happen to like backstories that aren't built on fairy dust and LSD.

*EDIT*

Yes, even mellow Ravor has some snark in him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
pbangarth
post Nov 2 2009, 05:46 PM
Post #22


Old Man of the North
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 9,548
Joined: 14-August 03
From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe
Member No.: 5,463



QUOTE (Ravor @ Nov 2 2009, 12:13 PM) *
To each their own, I happen to like backstories that aren't built on fairy dust and LSD.

*EDIT*

Yes, even mellow Ravor has some snark in him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)


Hey Ravor, just as a matter of interest, what parts of Shadowrun do you believe are not built on fairy dust and LSD? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nezumi
post Nov 2 2009, 06:03 PM
Post #23


Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,546
Joined: 24-October 03
From: DeeCee, U.S.
Member No.: 5,760



QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Oct 30 2009, 09:26 PM) *
Ravor is right, it hasn't been a two tradition game for a very long time and wasn't a two tradition game for very long at all.


Has SR4 really been out for that long? Because since 1989, it's been pretty clearly 'two schools' (assuming you group Voudoun into Shamanism, which is basically where it belongs).

To answer the original question, my assumption is the organized tribes realized it wasn't worth the trouble and political flak of trying to convince the UCAS/CAS to give up citizens when they're struggling to achieve the most basic political goals and ultimately need the help of their neighbors to maintain stability, and the disorganized tribes were too far removed and too busy fighting each other to cut out their place to care. Any search like this will be privately funded and run (but does make complete sense).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ravor
post Nov 3 2009, 12:14 AM
Post #24


Cybernetic Blood Mage
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,472
Joined: 11-March 06
From: Northeastern Wyoming
Member No.: 8,361



pbangarth sadly not nearly enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Paul
post Nov 3 2009, 01:49 AM
Post #25


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,001
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Michigan
Member No.: 1,514



From a physical plant Stand Point the Midwest, and Western states are dotted with a number of newly minted maximum security prisons, that are truly state of the art. Many of these specialize in isolating trouble makers from each other-be it segregation units, with single man cells, or even double bunked assignments, to cells that even contain their own yard modules, shower modules and use highly sophisticated sally port style pass through systems, with angled floors, and safety plumbing, with built in gas dispensers.

Some states have prisons set up to handle large numbers of prisoners, but most of these are older facilities with a great deal of problems. Few of these places would be inaccessible to the media completely, even if staff were supplemented by the Military.

I suspect that how the media perceived this event would be a significant factor in how events unfolded. Internment camps, like the ones the Japanese American citizens were subjected to in the World War II era would be immensely difficult to run in a similar fashion due to various state and federal mandates on how we incarcerate people. (Things like OSHA, local Environmental Quality, State departments of Agriculture, etc... all have a role to play in how a prison is run.)

Now magic is, of course, a real X factor. I mean imagine how scared out of their wits people would be to find out Magic was real. Really real.

I personally like the Great Ghost Dance, but I also like that the game uses racism to enhance the Dystopian feel of things. Issues like racism, slavery, human rights, medical rights are common place in our games. We've had some great IC discussions on how people feel about these things. Heck in our D&D game we dedicated six sessions just to freeing slaves, and groups like Tamanous, and the Humanis Policlub are amongst my favorites bad guys.

Obviously your mileage will vary. What always kills me in these sorts of discussions is how people discuss what happens at their table as if it should happen at every table. I thought the fun of an RPG was that we can each do it our own way, and no ones wrong. But what do I know after 20 years of gaming?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 19th March 2024 - 05:08 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.