Does the NAN have anything similar to the Shoah project?, A matter of sensitivity, so play nice kids. |
Does the NAN have anything similar to the Shoah project?, A matter of sensitivity, so play nice kids. |
Oct 30 2009, 07:09 PM
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#1
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 206 Joined: 29-September 09 Member No.: 17,687 |
So one day I got to thinking about Shadowrun's back story. There are some similarities to the re-education camps to the actual, real world camps from WWII where so many jews and political dissidents suffered. As I pondered the link between the two, I considered the real world history of what happened afterward. The jews founded Israel, and for a number of years they hunted down the Nazis and brought them to justice. In fact, one could even see parallels to shadowruns operated by the Israeli government, even going so far as to kidnap some of the big names and haul them to Israel for a trial and eventual execution. Now, i'm skipping over a lot of the details but that's essentially what happened. The Shoah project is the jewish dedication to the idea that the massacre should never be allowed to happen again. They record the testimony of the survivors, and make the evidence of the atrocities available to any/all who want to learn the truth.
So back to shadowrun. I've not seen anything in the official game back story about the NAN that would indicate they took a similar route. Did the NAN hunt down the camp guards? I would presume they educate their children about what happened...but that's mere presumption on my part. Thoughts? Comments? Play nice though. I realize that i'm treading close to some dangerous territory here. It's just that I take dedication to the 'reality' of my campaign/story arcs very seriously. I could see some interesting campaign ideas coming out of such a project from the NAN...and I think it's a subject area that might be a good place to further develop the back story for Shadowrun. |
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Oct 30 2009, 07:11 PM
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#2
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Magical attempted genocide doesn't count?
~J |
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Oct 30 2009, 07:15 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 206 Joined: 29-September 09 Member No.: 17,687 |
Magical attempted genocide doesn't count? ~J One could argue that the Ghost Dance was the NAN using the only weapon they had left in order to strike back against a better armed opponent. And i'm also fairly certain (again, this is mere speculation on my part) that Howling Coyote was given the knowledge of the Ghost Dance by someone (or several someones) for reasons of their own that had nothing to do with the re-education camps themselves. Or even the well being of the tribes. |
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Oct 30 2009, 07:19 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 22-November 06 Member No.: 9,934 |
So back to shadowrun. I've not seen anything in the official game back story about the NAN that would indicate they took a similar route. Did the NAN hunt down the camp guards? I would presume they educate their children about what happened...but that's mere presumption on my part. Thoughts? Comments? there have been worse atrocities, and more lesser ones throughout history the one you cited is just the most famous. and one of the only ones to have the backing of the rest of the world to assist in the justice. its not out of the ordinary for the oppressed to simply be glad they are free and return to a life away from what happened I'm not going to touch on specifics due to the sensitive nature of the subject but you can google most of the famous incidents |
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Oct 30 2009, 07:22 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 206 Joined: 29-September 09 Member No.: 17,687 |
there have been worse atrocities, and more lesser ones throughout history the one you cited is just the most famous. and one of the only ones to have the backing of the rest of the world to assist in the justice. its not out of the ordinary for the oppressed to simply be glad they are free and return to a life away from what happened I'm not going to touch on specifics due to the sensitive nature of the subject but you can google most of the famous incidents well yeah, but that goes to my point - the ghost dance changed the world, but it's one of the least discussed items in the back story of the shadowrun setting. none of the tribal societies seemed to organize any effort to bring the camp guards (or their bosses) to justice. And given the magical backing they had at their disposal, I'd think they'd be not just motivated to strike back directly at their former torturers but that they would have the means at their disposal to do so without exposing themselves to any danger. |
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Oct 30 2009, 07:49 PM
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#6
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm not finding details on the Ghost Dance in my collection, but I would quite seriously suggest that the reason is because they already murdered them all (or most of them) in that event.
~J |
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Oct 30 2009, 07:52 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 284 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Metroplex Member No.: 217 |
Capturing prison camp guards and putting them on trial before the STC would make a GOOD Shadowrun.
How would a presumably mostly Anglo group of runners feel about it? How much of a Sadist was this camp guard who escaped? How much of an "everyday Joe" with a family has the former guard become? If you like runs with moral dilemmas (and I LOVE them) then this could be a great premise. |
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Oct 30 2009, 09:36 PM
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#8
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,946 Joined: 1-June 09 From: Omaha Member No.: 17,234 |
1)Evidently the NA Concentration camps were nothing like the nazi death camps as enough magical indian badasses came out of them to start a multifront war against the most powerful nation on the planet and it's northern neighbor.
2)The parallel further breaks down as the Jews were imprisoned because of lung standing racial bias and scapegoating where as the NA were incarcerated (justifiably or not) because NA radicals tried to more or less end the world in nuclear fire. A sentimen that more or less held true when as soon as they gained the abiloity to cause more mass scale death and destruction the NAN pulled things like Los Alamos. 3) Israel is only able to get away with extraditing nazi war criminals back from Israel because the government that is responsible for those crimes is now defunct and the world court has standing orders for the extradition. If the NAN government did the same to UCAS citizens the UCAS could ask the corporate court to intervene or go to war themselves. Given the NAN's anti-corporate rheteric I cannot see them having very many friends amongst the powers that be outside of Horizon. The reason the GGD isn't discussed is because it's an embarrassingly racist piece of tripe that serves no other purpose storyline wise then to isolate Seattle, which is the primary game setting. From a rational or geopolitical standpoint, or within the context of the games own explanation of magic it doesn't work. |
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Oct 30 2009, 10:56 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 206 Joined: 29-September 09 Member No.: 17,687 |
The reason the GGD isn't discussed is because it's an embarrassingly racist piece of tripe that serves no other purpose storyline wise then to isolate Seattle, which is the primary game setting. From a rational or geopolitical standpoint, or within the context of the games own explanation of magic it doesn't work. ooook then. sorry I asked. |
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Oct 31 2009, 01:02 AM
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#10
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Well unless things start getting interesting the only piece I'm prepared to say about the NAN is this; It simply doesn't work and there are too many holes that the devs have tried to plug that we've basicallt ended up with at least three different versions of the story that all contradict each other on key parts.
I can buy the NAN being able to pull off the Great Ghost Dance Ritual itself given that they were handed it on a silver platter by an agent of the Horrors, but for the NAN to actually win we have to forget the fact that 1% of everyone's beliefs just became real, and the "ancient shaman rituals" are no more valid than a Christian praying to the ArcheAngels or even a Star Wars Geek wielding The Force to crush his enemies. |
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Oct 31 2009, 01:07 AM
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#11
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
but for the NAN to actually win we have to forget the fact that 1% of everyone's beliefs just became real, and the "ancient shaman rituals" are no more valid than a Christian praying to the ArcheAngels or even a Star Wars Geek wielding The Force to crush his enemies. Wait, what? ~J |
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Oct 31 2009, 01:25 AM
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#12
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) Search your feelings, young Kagetenshi for you know it to be true. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)
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Oct 31 2009, 01:33 AM
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#13
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
On the contrary—precisely two beliefs turned out to be legitimate, one of which was native American tribal shamanism.
~J |
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Oct 31 2009, 01:39 AM
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#14
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
I disagree with you as strongly as possible, we've been told time and time again that Magic doesn't care what you do, merely that you believe it is going to work, and I'd point to the multitude of Traditions out there as proof, hell, at least one of them doesn't even believe in Magic but that doesn't stop them from shaping mana and frying some poor slot's brain.
Also remember that Big D is on the record as being amused by the Traditions and the "self imposed limitations" if I remember his words correctly. |
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Oct 31 2009, 01:58 AM
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#15
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It does indeed sound like we disagree as strongly as possible. Despite pollution from later sourcebooks, the core message has been that magic works in two ways and two alone for Sixth World metahumanity. The psionic adherents are given crippling disadvantages to reflect the fact that they are, ultimately, deeply wrong about how their power works.
Metahumanity magic is fairly laughable to Dunkelzahn, I'd imagine. ~J |
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Oct 31 2009, 02:03 AM
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#16
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Aye, but the mere fact that the Psions are able to do anything at all while refusing to believe in magic is rather telling in my eyes, plus we've been given countless Traditions that aren't crippled in the slightest, hell before Fourth Edition it seemed like almost every last one had to have their own "special" ruleset to reflect their differences.
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Oct 31 2009, 02:26 AM
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#17
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,946 Joined: 1-June 09 From: Omaha Member No.: 17,234 |
Ravor is right, it hasn't been a two tradition game for a very long time and wasn't a two tradition game for very long at all.
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Oct 31 2009, 02:26 AM
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#18
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Runner Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,946 Joined: 1-June 09 From: Omaha Member No.: 17,234 |
Ravor is right, it hasn't been a two tradition game for a very long time and wasn't a two tradition game for very long at all.
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Oct 31 2009, 02:55 AM
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#19
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) Now repeat after me, Ravor is always right, even when he's utterly and completely wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)
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Nov 2 2009, 05:11 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 574 Joined: 22-June 09 From: Ucluelet - Tofino - Nanaimo Salish-Sahide Council Member No.: 17,309 |
Capturing prison camp guards and putting them on trial before the STC would make a GOOD Shadowrun. How would a presumably mostly Anglo group of runners feel about it? How much of a Sadist was this camp guard who escaped? How much of an "everyday Joe" with a family has the former guard become? If you like runs with moral dilemmas (and I LOVE them) then this could be a great premise. I am so stealing this idea and running with it. Thank you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) And on the subject of the various nations that are NAN being possible thanks to SR magic, going to have agree to disagree, which should be apparent from the NAN Fading thread. Long live the Salish-Sahidhe Council, fuck the UCAS. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) |
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Nov 2 2009, 05:13 PM
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#21
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
To each their own, I happen to like backstories that aren't built on fairy dust and LSD.
*EDIT* Yes, even mellow Ravor has some snark in him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) |
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Nov 2 2009, 05:46 PM
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#22
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 9,548 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
To each their own, I happen to like backstories that aren't built on fairy dust and LSD. *EDIT* Yes, even mellow Ravor has some snark in him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif) Hey Ravor, just as a matter of interest, what parts of Shadowrun do you believe are not built on fairy dust and LSD? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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Nov 2 2009, 06:03 PM
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#23
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Ravor is right, it hasn't been a two tradition game for a very long time and wasn't a two tradition game for very long at all. Has SR4 really been out for that long? Because since 1989, it's been pretty clearly 'two schools' (assuming you group Voudoun into Shamanism, which is basically where it belongs). To answer the original question, my assumption is the organized tribes realized it wasn't worth the trouble and political flak of trying to convince the UCAS/CAS to give up citizens when they're struggling to achieve the most basic political goals and ultimately need the help of their neighbors to maintain stability, and the disorganized tribes were too far removed and too busy fighting each other to cut out their place to care. Any search like this will be privately funded and run (but does make complete sense). |
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Nov 3 2009, 12:14 AM
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#24
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
pbangarth sadly not nearly enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)
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Nov 3 2009, 01:49 AM
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#25
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,001 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Michigan Member No.: 1,514 |
From a physical plant Stand Point the Midwest, and Western states are dotted with a number of newly minted maximum security prisons, that are truly state of the art. Many of these specialize in isolating trouble makers from each other-be it segregation units, with single man cells, or even double bunked assignments, to cells that even contain their own yard modules, shower modules and use highly sophisticated sally port style pass through systems, with angled floors, and safety plumbing, with built in gas dispensers.
Some states have prisons set up to handle large numbers of prisoners, but most of these are older facilities with a great deal of problems. Few of these places would be inaccessible to the media completely, even if staff were supplemented by the Military. I suspect that how the media perceived this event would be a significant factor in how events unfolded. Internment camps, like the ones the Japanese American citizens were subjected to in the World War II era would be immensely difficult to run in a similar fashion due to various state and federal mandates on how we incarcerate people. (Things like OSHA, local Environmental Quality, State departments of Agriculture, etc... all have a role to play in how a prison is run.) Now magic is, of course, a real X factor. I mean imagine how scared out of their wits people would be to find out Magic was real. Really real. I personally like the Great Ghost Dance, but I also like that the game uses racism to enhance the Dystopian feel of things. Issues like racism, slavery, human rights, medical rights are common place in our games. We've had some great IC discussions on how people feel about these things. Heck in our D&D game we dedicated six sessions just to freeing slaves, and groups like Tamanous, and the Humanis Policlub are amongst my favorites bad guys. Obviously your mileage will vary. What always kills me in these sorts of discussions is how people discuss what happens at their table as if it should happen at every table. I thought the fun of an RPG was that we can each do it our own way, and no ones wrong. But what do I know after 20 years of gaming? |
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