How important is Strength? Options

[harlokin]

We've just started playing SR4, and the growing consensus in the group appears to be that Strength is a marginal attribute at best in combat.

Agility is used for both ranged and melee attacks, while Strength only helps determine damage done in melee, and has a very minor effect on recoil for ranged.

For the melee weapons I've seen, you only get half Strength plus the weapon damage, while if you use a Monofilament whip, you can completely ignore your Strength and still do the same melee damage as someone with a Strength of 8 and a Combat Axe.

Is Strength underpowered, is the Monofilament whip overpowered, or have we got it all wrong?

[Bull]

The monowhip is overpowered. But remember, if you glitch, you hit yourself with it. THat's not really a danger with other melee weapons.

Strength also factors into a few skills, and most importantly, it factors into what armor you can wear. You can only wear armor up to double your strength before you start taking dice pool penalties. So a mage with a body of 2, for example, can't even wear a lined coat withouut eating a couple dice penalties. You need a 4 to wear an armored jacket.

[Dakka Dakka]

Bull, it's 2xBOD. Strength has nothing to do with armor and encumbrance.

Strength is only used for a couple of skills.

Personally I like that strength does not factor in as much into melee damage as in other games. With the right weapons you don't need to be a world class weightlifter to cause grievous wounds, and being stronger still has an effect.

Strength also factors in the throwing distances, the maximum pull of a bow a character can effectively use and the weight he can carry.

[Traul]

and the weight he can carry.

Most important. Nobody cares about that until someone gets shot and has to be carried back home.

[Stahlseele]

in SR4, there are no weights anymore.

[Dakka Dakka]

in SR4, there are no weights anymore.

There are no more weights listed for the equipment, but stuff still has weight and characters have a maximum carrying capacity and lifting capability.

[Saint Sithney]

Strength isn't even as important as Body for running. Hell, 5k worth of cheap little Oxyrush nanos will serve you better than 5 strength and 5 running, unless you're talking about top speed (which is only marginally aided anyway.)

[Ravor]

However, it isn't really a problem as long as you play your characters as real people and not mere collections of numbers stratched into a piece of paper.

[Dakka Dakka]

Body improves the time you can spend running, but Strength determines how far you can go during this time.

[Stahlseele]

Only thing Strength is really usefull for is climbing.

[KCKitsune]

Body improves the time you can spend running, but Strength determines how far you can go during this time.

Unless you take Celerity as a SURGE power... 1.5 time normal running speeds has humans running as fast as trolls... with out any cyberware.

[Zen Shooter01]

Shadowrun is a post modern setting. No, STR isn't that important. Strength isn't that important in real life for most people living in the First World.

STR is vital in SR for melee combat, and it bears repeating that sometimes Shadowrunners have to carry willing, unwilling, and/or incapacitated metahumans around.

[Saint Sithney]

Body improves the time you can spend running, but Strength determines how far you can go during this time.

Man, if I'm ever in a situation where the 3 extra meters per turn from a good, solid sprint test really matters, then I've got way more going wrong in my world than I care to think on.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Man, if I'm ever in a situation where the 3 extra meters per turn from a good, solid sprint test really matters, then I've got way more going wrong in my world than I care to think on.

This is more true than many would like to admit...

But it is useful for carrying loads, as well as for some skills... primarliy three of the four Athletics skills...

Keep the Faith

[MikeKozar]

...grenade tossing range is a function of Strength as well, right?

[Traul]

In SR3, higher Strength used to give a bonus to Intimidation rolls. Now this has been fudged into the "physically imposing" modifier, but the GM is free to take Strength into account for that.

[Cheshyr]

Man, if I'm ever in a situation where the 3 extra meters per turn from a good, solid sprint test really matters, then I've got way more going wrong in my world than I care to think on.

There was a situation where I wish I'd had those 3 extra meters. However, it was a rather extreme situation. I'm fairly certain the GM is going to use it again someday.

[Saint Sithney]

...grenade tossing range is a function of Strength as well, right?

Yeah, but you'll still never be able to put 'em down range like a launcher can.

[MikeKozar]

Yeah, but you'll still never be able to put 'em down range like a launcher can.

Just saying, if Strength is your dump stat you might think twice when the Arms Dealer offers to cut you a deal on some pineapples.

[Dakka Dakka]

A good strength score is also beneficial for knife throwing.

I just found out that there can only be short foot chases. Unless you go all out humans, elves and orks jog at the same speed, whether they are fit or not. Only trolls and dwarves jog at different speeds. Isn't that weird?

[Chrysalis]

The only things I can think where I need an extra three meters per turn is when my characters try to escape my GM's hentai tentacle monsters.

More seriously, what about avoiding the blast radius of grenades?

[Bull]

Bull, it's 2xBOD. Strength has nothing to do with armor and encumbrance.

Strength is only used for a couple of skills.

Personally I like that strength does not factor in as much into melee damage as in other games. With the right weapons you don't need to be a world class weightlifter to cause grievous wounds, and being stronger still has an effect.

Strength also factors in the throwing distances, the maximum pull of a bow a character can effectively use and the weight he can carry.

This is what I get for posting at 4 AM when I'm dead tired but hopped up on sugar (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I knew it's BOdy, I just flipped them in my mind for some reason.

ANyways, what it comes down to, Shadowruns a game of skill and guns, not brute strength. As has been pointed out, STrength doesn't really effect a lot of things in your day to day lives.

That said, as a GM, it's your job to challenge the players and the characters. If you find your group (or even just certain characters) are abusing certain stats, dumping things that they logically should ahve at least at a moderate level, then put in challenges that require that skill. ANy kind of "muscle" or "tough guy" character should have at least a decent strength, minium 3 or 4. If your Sammies and combat monsters are all dumping it to the minimum in favor of boosting agility and reaction as high as possible, well, they're tweaking the rules in their favor. Feel free to tip the balance back. Hackers, Mages, even Riggers aren't necessarily going to be real strong, nor do they need to be. But combat oriented characters, I don;t care how badass you are, if you have a 1 strength, I'm laughing at your little stick arms.

<shrug>

Look at encumberance. Sure, there's no weight on gear in the game, but there's still a bit of logic to be had.

Maybe they need to lift or pull something. Maybe they need to physically bust open a door. Maybe an ork in the bar challenges the runners to an arm wrestling match, and refusal means they're starting a bar brawl that can result in the players getting arrested.

Every stat, every skill, everything has a purpose in the game, even if it doesn't come up all that often. And if the players are all ignoring one facet of the game, especially for metagame reasons like (It's not that important and I want to twink X out instead), then as a GM, it's your right, your priviledge, and IMO, your duty to call them on their bullshit one in a while. I wouldn't do it every game, and certainly not multiple times per game, but toss it out there once every 2-3 game sessions at different players, and after a couple failures with consequences, I'm sure they'll change their tune.

Bull

[Dakka Dakka]

The only things I can think where I need an extra three meters per turn is when my characters try to escape my GM's hentai tentacle monsters.

I don't know where you get the three meters. It's 2m per hit and you can make 2 tests per IP. With four IPs you can run pretty far in one round with no added fatigue cost.

More seriously, what about avoiding the blast radius of grenades?

For everything but a frag grenade you can just walk away, if you still have an IP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) With a frag you have to run (sprinting is unnecessary), or be a troll, then you can walk. There is no running away from airburst grenades.

[Saint Sithney]

Run Tests count per IP, eh?

I thought your total movement got split up by the IP and run tests only added to the total. So, if you have two IPs and decided to run for one of them, it would only add half the hits worth, and if you had 4 IPs it would only add 1/4th the hits.

Makes more sense the way you explain it, but that puts pretty much every shadow runner in a category that would trump all the world's greatest sprinters easily

[Thanee]

Strength lets you do awesome things, like lifting people off the ground and throw them around.

Bye
Thanee