Reengineering combat spells, What's in a drain? Options

[Traul]

I was checking the drain table fro designing new spells in Street Magic, and there several things that are utterly broken.

1) Physical spells have +1 drain, mana spells +0.

Mana spells are already more efficient: it is easier to bypass the target's WIL than BOD. While it might be equivalent for humans, Metahumanity has much higher average BOD than WIL because of orcs and trolls. The only bonus to WIL is a +1 for dwarves who also have +1 to BOD.

The only point of physical spells is to be able to target drones, but their high Object Resistance makes it hard enough not to deserve another punishment.

Proposed fix: change it to Physical spells +0, mana spells +1 for Combat spells only.

One could even justify it with fluff: why should it be easier to damage a physical being with a mana spell? Eventually one could rule that the +1 drain only applies when using a mana combat spell on the physical plane or against a non astral being.

2) Stun damage gets -1 drain

Everybody loves Stun damage because it keeps your hands clean. When you want to inflict Stun damage with mundane means you have to pay for it. Tasers have a very low range, Gel rounds and Flash bang grenades inflict less damage, Stick & Shock are expensive, toxins take time to kick in,... When using Magic, it is easier to inflict Stun damage than Physical. Lower drain means you can cast with higher Force, thus inflict more damage.

Proposed fix: change the Stun damage modifier to +1 drain.

Here the fluff justification is that Stun damage needs careful craft. While projecting raw energy might be enough to destroy things, you need to control it if you don't want to inflict any permanent damage.

These fixes would make both a Lightning bolt and a Stunbolt F/2 + 2 and a Powerbolt only F/2. It also narrows the gap between direct and indirect combat spells.

What do you think about it?

[Marwynn]

This doesn't "reengineer" anything. It just reverses the bonuses to penalties.

You're forgetting one aspect of it, and that is the Direct/Indirect component. Indirect Combat Spells are more akin to projectiles and grenades and only Physical spells can be Indirect.

Stun damage getting a +1? You want to make it easier to kill instead of putting someone to sleep? And excuse me, but nothing prevents a mage from packing firearms with SnS, Gel, or Capsule rounds. "You have to pay for it"... as if 3 BP or 5 Karma at chargen, with the chance of high drain due to being Direct damage usually and at higher force.

Sorry I don't agree with it. I do feel it needs to be changed but this isn't the way, you've just evened things out with no benefits or penalties aside from the direct/indirect and damage types.

Indirect Combat Spells need looking into. The Drain is far too high and the mechanics are a bit cumbersome. If anything Mana or Physical spells shouldn't have a drain modifier at all for Combat Spells for the sake of balance. Mana lets you fight in Astral, Physical lets you blow Drones up.

Removing the -1 Drain Stun bonus for AoEs might prove useful.

And if we want to re-engineer anything it's Indirect Combat spells. Reaction + Counterspelling to be resisted with Body + Half Impact Armour. That just reduces their effectiveness since normal ranged defenses work against them. I mean, why use a spell that can be Dodged? There are mundane means of affecting targets you can't see. And not only do they generate more Drain they are less effective at damaging.

Lightning Bolt at F/2 + 2 and Stunball at F/2 + 2 seems fairer overall.

[Thanee]

Physical spells are more potent, because you can target objects with them. The +1 DV for those is ok.

Stun spells could be at +0, they have advantages and disadvantages that about cancel each other out, IMHO.
No real need to offer more incentive. But surely no higher Drain than Mana or Physical spells for them.

Bye
Thanee

[djinni]

Proposed fix: change it to Physical spells +0, mana spells +1 for Combat spells only.
One could even justify it with fluff: why should it be easier to damage a physical being with a mana spell? Eventually one could rule that the +1 drain only applies when using a mana combat spell on the physical plane or against a non astral being.

fluff wise its because you are damaging their astral form, not their physical form, you don't have to convert the astral energies of magic into a physical manifestation to damage a physical body.

Proposed fix: change the Stun damage modifier to +1 drain.

Here the fluff justification is that Stun damage needs careful craft. While projecting raw energy might be enough to destroy things, you need to control it if you don't want to inflict any permanent damage.

you have to channel the magic through your body (hence the drain) think of it like a fighter throwing a punch, its the same principle.
if you set up that drain modifier then you should allow an "on the fly" ability to channel a physically damaging spell as a stun.

hat do you think about it?

you always have to remember you cannot apply real logic to "magic"
because when you do you have to remember realistically its not "balanced" some things are just simply easier to do. making them "overpowered" and that's just simply life. golden rule "its not you vs them"
Legaleze: Any felony committed with the aid of magic is automatically considered to be a premeditated act. If you kill someone with magic, you’re looking at Murder One. If a spirit you summoned gets up to mischief and, say, burns down a few buildings or goes on a killing spree, you’re considered responsible even if the spirit had broken free of your control. Possession of some magical goods, particularly foci and other offensive items above a certain power level, without valid documentation (which is, of course, nearly impossible for anyone without a SIN to obtain) is a criminal offense even if you haven’t committed any other crime with them. And if you think that’s restrictive, try traveling outside of North America
in some other countries, such as europe I think, being a magician requires that you register yourself with the government and keep a tissue sample on file.
So for example any PC that abuses their power, you can just have them picked up by lonestar/knight errant and get put in the database, they get a HUGE fine and get assigned a criminal SIN and since you don't want to screw them over too bad you allow them to get sent off with a warning, due to "more important crimes" taking precidence and maybe the star just believes you "really didn't know." because your such a nice GM they get off with a warning...
the "balance" you seek is not within the rules its within the setting, its the same as a troll having to deal with everything being small if your troll players aren't roleplaying life as a freak then they need to work a little harder.

[Traul]

You're forgetting one aspect of it, and that is the Direct/Indirect component. Indirect Combat Spells are more akin to projectiles and grenades and only Physical spells can be Indirect.

That was intentional, because per RAW there is no difference in the drain value between direct and indirect combat spells, but they still get a huge drain. The high drain of indirect spells come from 3 things: they are Physical, they inflict Physical Damage and the elemental effect.

I agree that there is a problem with indirect combat spells, but most of it comes from unbalances that are also found between direct combat spells.

You want to make it easier to kill instead of putting someone to sleep?

Exactly. That's the way it is for everybody else in the game and that is the way it has to be for game balance. If something is better, it has to be harder to get, otherwise the other choices have no reason to exist.

And excuse me, but nothing prevents a mage from packing firearms with SnS, Gel, or Capsule rounds. "You have to pay for it"... as if 3 BP or 5 Karma at chargen, with the chance of high drain due to being Direct damage usually and at higher force.

This is off-topic. The question is not to compare physical and magical ways to deal damage, but to compare a stunbolt with a manabolt. Currently there is no reason to prefer the manabolt, unless your opponent is sporting an Adrenal pump or a Pain editor. Have you often seen one of those at your table?

If anything Mana or Physical spells shouldn't have a drain modifier at all for Combat Spells for the sake of balance. Mana lets you fight in Astral, Physical lets you blow Drones up.

I would agree with you if this was the only difference. 90% of the time, you will be using your spells neither in the astral nor on drones but on basic metahumans. This is the case where physical and mana spells are unbalanced. There are 8 bonus BOD points among the metatypes for 1 WIL point. The traits are not on the same scale.

Removing the -1 Drain Stun bonus for AoEs might prove useful.

Why only for AoEs?

Stun spells could be at +0, they have advantages and disadvantages that about cancel each other out, IMHO.

What are the disdvantages of Stun spells? I really do not see them.

@djinni:

I'm not talking about magic vs the rest of the world, but combat spells against each other.

[Falconer]

Quickly... I think the OP has something wrong. The extra drain on physical spells means you don't have to beat object resistance at all. EG: the drone is wreathed in flames... the flames aren't purely magical, you're using magic to spontaneously combust the air around the drone.

2. most physical spells have secondary effects depending on their elemental types. Which make them quite usefull for mesmer effects. (look at electricities secondary effects and stunning effects for example, or sonic there's a bunch of them).

EG: I hit a flying drone w/ a lightning bolt... there's a decent chance the drone will suffer an OS reset, need to reboot... and while it's doing that no autopilot so it crashes. DESPITE the fact that I can't damage the drone w/ electricity damage. (there's some disagreement as to whether a lightning bolt does stun or physical damage, I say stun... as a sonic ball would also do stun... it gives more control of your elemental effects).


Edit: OP is wrong... there is a definitive reason to prefer manabolt to stunbolt. Sometimes you want things dead.. things which ignore stun damage (such as stim patches, or pain editors, etc... are not that uncommon especially on street sams). Now in order to knock out said high threat item which WILL swiss cheese the mage even behind cover... (shoot through walls and other barriers w/ APDS I do! you mean you didn't include a MM wave radar in the street sams sensor suite!). I need to do TWICE as much damage. I need to fill both his stun and physical tracks.... *shiver*

Another reason, wards in astral. If I want to punch my way through a ward I need to do physical damage to the ward w/ either an astral attack or spell. Manabolt is pretty much the only spell which fullfills this criteria!

[djinni]

Quickly... I think the OP has something wrong. The extra drain on physical spells means you don't have to beat object resistance at all. EG: the drone is wreathed in flames... the flames aren't purely magical, you're using magic to spontaneously combust the air around the drone.

correct but only on indirect combat spells, as you conjure an effect then send it on its way

[Traul]

Edit: OP is wrong... there is a definitive reason to prefer manabolt to stunbolt. Sometimes you want things dead.. things which ignore stun damage (such as stim patches, or pain editors, etc... are not that uncommon especially on street sams).

Stim patches are not a problem: you still fall unconscious when your Stun monitor is full. Pain editor has 18F availability. The adrenal pump takes a whooping 0.75 Essence per rating and has a huge drawback. Seriously: how many PCs have you built or seen with one of those? Why assume it is more common among NPCs?

Another reason, wards in astral. If I want to punch my way through a ward I need to do physical damage to the ward w/ either an astral attack or spell. Manabolt is pretty much the only spell which fullfills this criteria!

Point taken. But a barrier can be crossed without being destroyed. And do you honestly think this is common enough to justify choosing manabolt over stunbolt? Spells are very limited at chargen. If you only have room for 1 combat spell, which one do you pick?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Stim patches are not a problem: you still fall unconscious when your Stun monitor is full. Pain editor has 18F availability. The adrenal pump takes a whooping 0.75 Essence per rating and has a huge drawback. Seriously: how many PCs have you built or seen with one of those? Why assume it is more common among NPCs?

Point taken. But a barrier can be crossed without being destroyed. And do you honestly think this is common enough to justify choosing manabolt over stunbolt? Spells are very limited at chargen. If you only have room for 1 combat spell, which one do you pick?

Funny, I am playing a mage currently, I have 17 Spells in my repertoir, and Have YET to actually pick up a combat spell... So taht argument is really not a very good one... I think spells are balanced to their effects, are some more preferable than others, sure, but htat is a preference, not a requirement... you can play the game and NEVER have to worry about drain from ANY Combat Spell, Direct or Indirect...

Also, Anyone may actually cross a Ward... it is only there to stop astral forms afterall (which may or may not be disrupted upon crossing)... however, the only way to reliably bypass a ward is to have several metamagic techniques to absolutely guarantee such success (at least for somewhat powerful wards)... You may only freely bypass a ward if you can mimic the signature of someone whose has access... that alone makes it pretty expensive to accomplish in terms of Karma... are you going to ban/change that when it happens on a regular basis because it is unbalanced?

Your Opinion may Vary

Keep the Faith

[Traul]

Also, Anyone may actually cross a Ward... it is only there to stop astral forms afterall (which may or may not be disrupted upon crossing)... however, the only way to reliably bypass a ward is to have several metamagic techniques to absolutely guarantee such success (at least for somewhat powerful wards)... You may only freely bypass a ward if you can mimic the signature of someone whose has access... that alone makes it pretty expensive to accomplish in terms of Karma...

I was not talking about that. Any astral being can force his way through a barrier and bring his foci/spells with him. That's in the base book, it is just an Opposed Magic+Charisma test against the barrier Force*2. Destroying the barrier should only come to mind when the barrier is too strong to be crossed.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I was not talking about that. Any astral being can force his way through a barrier and bring his foci/spells with him. That's in the base book, it is just an Opposed Magic+Charisma test against the barrier Force*2. Destroying the barrier should only come to mind when the barrier is too strong to be crossed.

But if the Opposed test fails for the character, he does not cross with them active...

You don't have to actually destroy the barrier to cross, but it is definitely an advanced ability to cross a ward, with foci intact, and not alerting the owner that the ward has been breached...

Keep the Faith

[Traul]

You don't have to actually destroy the barrier to cross, but it is definitely an advanced ability to cross a ward, with foci intact, and not alerting the owner that the ward has been breached...

How so?

Any attack on a mana barrier or attempt to break through is immediately felt by the creator.

I think the only stealthy way to get through is to fool the ward. That's why it is so expensive.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How so?

I think the only stealthy way to get through is to fool the ward.

Yes, You must use Masking to do so, which is an advanced abiltiy (Initiates only), Extended Masking would also allow you to take your Foci with you (allowing your spells to stay unaffected) assuming you have not exceeded the capabilities of the Metamagic Technique (Limits on number of foci/spells covered)

Flexible Signature would also be handy as well, as then you are assuming the actual signature of the caster, although I would make a test (Astral Perception) agianst the Signature using the rules for Masking to see if the Ward is fooled... Of course, some may see this as a House Rule... I see it as in extension of the Metamagic Technique... you are assuming the signature of another person (Flexible Signature), rather than trying to belnd into the Magical Signature of the Ward itself (Masking/Extended Masking)...

Keep the Faith

[Marwynn]

That was intentional, because per RAW there is no difference in the drain value between direct and indirect combat spells, but they still get a huge drain. The high drain of indirect spells come from 3 things: they are Physical, they inflict Physical Damage and the elemental effect.

I agree that there is a problem with indirect combat spells, but most of it comes from unbalances that are also found between direct combat spells.

Yes, I know. My point was that Indirect spells requiring Physical type spells pretty much makes it an Indirect penalty when it shouldn't. Mana and Physical should have no effect on the drain for Combat Spells, and the Indirect component, if necessary which I don't believe is, should have that penalty.

Exactly. That's the way it is for everybody else in the game and that is the way it has to be for game balance. If something is better, it has to be harder to get, otherwise the other choices have no reason to exist.

This is off-topic. The question is not to compare physical and magical ways to deal damage, but to compare a stunbolt with a manabolt. Currently there is no reason to prefer the manabolt, unless your opponent is sporting an Adrenal pump or a Pain editor. Have you often seen one of those at your table?

But you brought up the ease of killing instead of stunning. My point is that 3 BP or 5 Karma is more than enough of an investment compared to buying ammo and using it tactically.

And really, SnS or Gel rounds aren't that hard to acquire. In fact, they're preferred by many Shadowrunners.

Now, comparing Stunbolt with a Manabolt has only one difference: killing or stunning. Unlike weapons you can't change the damage that easily of a spell, so my argument is that if you believe there is some kind of difficulty in acquiring and deploying stun weapons, it is usually factored into the actual cost of the spell itself (BP, Karma and Nuyen and time).

I would agree with you if this was the only difference. 90% of the time, you will be using your spells neither in the astral nor on drones but on basic metahumans. This is the case where physical and mana spells are unbalanced. There are 8 bonus BOD points among the metatypes for 1 WIL point. The traits are not on the same scale.

Well, that's a rather general statement isn't it? Drones are cheaper than corpsec. Frankly, I've found less use for Stunball than a decent Trid Phantasm.

That is true though, when Stunball is used it is unbalanced. However, this isn't the way.

Why only for AoEs?

Because I think it's a bit ridiculous to cast Stunball at F/2 + 1. Or any AoE Stun spell for that matter. I don't feel that the Touch ranged or single-target needs that kind of penalty.

[Ascalaphus]

The spells that truly disturb me are the anti-race spells. So you're an elven wizard and the nasty CorpSec team has you surrounded. You throw a Slaughter Humans spell on yourself, and the team just croaks, while you don't feel a thing. It allows you to bypass likely the biggest drawback of AoE spells, collateral damage. (Well, as long as you have correct racial profiles. But that's doable.)

[Zak]

One point of drain makes no difference at all.
If playing a magician with serious combat focus you are prepared to eat up to 5 points of drain due to multicasting anyway. And you need to multicast to keep up with the raw killing power of a proper physical char.
All an increase of drain does, is maybe net you a box of damage here and there. Sure that adds up, but in a huge battle with alot of participants a controlled retreat is usually preferrable to slaughtering 50 metahumans.

Why is Stunball an issue? Only during an ambush or agains mooks with no security training. You are supposed to walk over mooks and ambushes are deadly no matter the weapon of choice. Otherwise the range of Stunball gets you two or at most three targets. Meh.

As to picking Stun-X over Mana-X.
Assuming that a stunned target is always a dead target does not apply in all situations. A target with stundamage can be up and rolling again in a very short period of time. A target with physical damage is out for quite some time.

Anti-Race Spells. meh. Your spell selection is so limited, you should not have the luxury to pick them up. Only pick up the Orc variant when your GM always picks them for security duty.

[Thanee]

What are the disdvantages of Stun spells? I really do not see them.

They do Stun damage. Stun damage is easier to counter (Trauma Damper, Pain Editor, Patches and so on).

Also, weapons usually do Physical damage, so unless you specifically plan to do Stun damage (which is certainly possible) with weapons, too, the spells will attack a different condition monitor.

Bye
Thanee

[Faradon]

They do Stun damage. Stun damage is easier to counter (Trauma Damper, Pain Editor, Patches and so on).

Also, weapons usually do Physical damage, so unless you specifically plan to do Stun damage (which is certainly possible) with weapons, too, the spells will attack a different condition monitor.

Bye
Thanee

In many instances firearms end up doing stun damage as well (when DV doesn't excede AR)

Mana spells are WAY overpowered per RAW... The diminishing damage of every other form of combat is not seen with them.

Normally it is Atk Vs Defense and then Dmg Vs Resistance... With Mana spells it is Atk vs Resistance and skips an entire set of dice rolls. Counterspelling, when available, provides a small buffer, but nowhere near what a good set of armor + body or reflex might have added. (which is why the physical spells look so weak in comparison.)

I think perhaps the better fix might be to do opposed Casting vs Willpower(+Counterspelling) but then still try to soak the DV result with body as the mana rips you apart from the inside. That way it might not be so much "Dead or Nothing" that seems to happen a lot with current mana spells. (perhaps give logic or charisma as a 2nd stat for stun spells)

[Zak]

Mana spells are WAY overpowered per RAW... The diminishing damage of every other form of combat is not seen with them.

Uhm no. They only tend to be so powerful out of the book by overcasting and/or multicasting. And then they barely rival an equally specialized killer using automatics or a sniper (do not underestimate SA / BF / FA compared to the SS mode of magic). But this is a returning discussion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

An alternative I could see working would be ramping up the dmg or lowering the drain of Physical Spells by 1 (or 2).