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> Whatever Happened to Captain Chaos?
Draco18s
post Jun 11 2010, 04:51 PM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jun 11 2010, 11:33 AM) *
I would have prefered that all the "Immortal Elves" were not Immortal, they were only powerful enough to cas a spell on themselves and put themselves to sleep JUST like the Dragons did.


I prefer to think of them as being innately "like" the dragons. So in the manner in which you would like them to be, I see it as a passive thing that's inherent to their DNA somehow, and like dragons they too can die from wounds. Old age maybe, but along the lines of "millenia" and not "decades." Long enough that the rest of us go, "ok, immortal, got it" and move on.
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Dwight
post Jun 11 2010, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 11 2010, 09:23 AM) *
Then don't?


Of course.

QUOTE
If you have a GM that has Ghostwalker and Harlequin following the players around or calling then up to go to go on a beer run for them, you might want to have a talk with him.


If I had a GM that pulled what that module pulls I and she would indeed be having a talk.
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Sengir
post Jun 11 2010, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jun 11 2010, 05:33 PM) *
And not like Highlanders who spent the next few millenia waiting for Magic come up again

I actually like that concept, a sinister cabal which does not conspire just for the sake of having a world conspiracy.

However...
QUOTE
and learned (and taught?) all the cool tricks humanity developed during the low time.

...did anybody EVER like the idea that everybody who ever did something great either had pointy ears himself or was guided by an IE?
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brennanhawkwood
post Jun 11 2010, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Jun 11 2010, 01:08 PM) *
...did anybody EVER like the idea that everybody who ever did something great either had pointy ears himself or was guided by an IE?


Not I. Generally speaking I don't mind the IEs being out there and doing things, and even observing or contributing to some important past events, but when it turned into "everybody who ever did something great either had pointy ears himself or was guided by an IE" was when even I (as a 'fan' of the IE concept) started ignoring them to large extent. As others have said, it was not a bad concept, it just got carried too far.
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hermit
post Jun 11 2010, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE
While I do Like Harlequin, I would have prefered that all the "Immortal Elves" were not Immortal, they were only powerful enough to cas a spell on themselves and put themselves to sleep JUST like the Dragons did. And not like Highlanders who spent the next few millenia waiting for Magic come up again and learned (and taught?) all the cool tricks humanity developed during the low time.

They magically got themselves immunity (age), and that's it. They're actually a little less immortal than vampires. Just, they have 5-digit Karma counts. And we know how nuts a high Karma mage can be.

QUOTE
Pretty much this, immortal characters that secretly run the world and were present at all major events

Just, they weren't.
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Dr.Rockso
post Jun 11 2010, 05:34 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 11 2010, 11:51 AM) *
I prefer to think of them as being innately "like" the dragons. So in the manner in which you would like them to be, I see it as a passive thing that's inherent to their DNA somehow, and like dragons they too can die from wounds. Old age maybe, but along the lines of "millenia" and not "decades." Long enough that the rest of us go, "ok, immortal, got it" and move on.

And if Dota is any indication they are aging(either naturally, or not) rather visibly now.
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hobgoblin
post Jun 11 2010, 05:38 PM
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QUOTE (brennanhawkwood @ Jun 11 2010, 07:18 PM) *
Not I. Generally speaking I don't mind the IEs being out there and doing things, and even observing or contributing to some important past events, but when it turned into "everybody who ever did something great either had pointy ears himself or was guided by an IE" was when even I (as a 'fan' of the IE concept) started ignoring them to large extent. As others have said, it was not a bad concept, it just got carried too far.

a problem most games with powerful characters in their metaplot had, or still have.

all to easy to go "novel" on the metaplot and forget one is actually writing for a game where the player characters will be the center of attention.
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Caadium
post Jun 11 2010, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 11 2010, 09:38 AM) *
a problem most games with powerful characters in their metaplot had, or still have.

all to easy to go "novel" on the metaplot and forget one is actually writing for a game where the player characters will be the center of attention.


Some of the most fun SR games I've been involved with are games where the PCs might be the center of attention relating to what they are doing; but where they come to realize and remember that in the world of Extraterritorial Megacorps and Dragons all Shadowrunners, even the PCs, are just expendable assets. Not only are they assets, but they are akin to a single thread in a tapesty that they themselves don't often see.

I don't remember the name of the novel, but the novel themed around Jack the Ripper had an ending that I thought fit this mentality. Eventually, runners realize that even though they might have made some money, in the grand scheme of things they've been used and abused.
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Draco18s
post Jun 11 2010, 06:38 PM
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QUOTE (Caadium @ Jun 11 2010, 01:05 PM) *
I don't remember the name of the novel, but the novel themed around Jack the Ripper had an ending that I thought fit this mentality. Eventually, runners realize that even though they might have made some money, in the grand scheme of things they've been used and abused.


Wasn't that one of the "newer" novels that was only published due to a lack of recent material? My GM thinks its awful because it is Jack the Ripper, but with ShadowRun tattooed on.
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Jun 11 2010, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 11 2010, 01:51 PM) *
I prefer to think of them as being innately "like" the dragons. So in the manner in which you would like them to be, I see it as a passive thing that's inherent to their DNA somehow, and like dragons they too can die from wounds. Old age maybe, but along the lines of "millenia" and not "decades." Long enough that the rest of us go, "ok, immortal, got it" and move on.


Well, it could be, but then again, DNA has some intrisec "Magic" into it that can develop around high levels of mana. If this was the case, they should be dead of old age when the mana level droped. I could buy them going to sleep just like the Dragons did.

QUOTE (Sengir @ Jun 11 2010, 02:08 PM) *
I actually like that concept, a sinister cabal which does not conspire just for the sake of having a world conspiracy.

However...

...did anybody EVER like the idea that everybody who ever did something great either had pointy ears himself or was guided by an IE?


That's my whole problem with them. They are "better" than the Dragons in this way because they were watching all the events, while the dragons had to spend time (and money?) to get used to the current time.
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hermit
post Jun 11 2010, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE
I don't remember the name of the novel, but the novel themed around Jack the Ripper had an ending that I thought fit this mentality. Eventually, runners realize that even though they might have made some money, in the grand scheme of things they've been used and abused.

Streets of Blood. One of the best SR novels ever.
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Draco18s
post Jun 11 2010, 07:09 PM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jun 11 2010, 01:42 PM) *
Well, it could be, but then again, DNA has some intrisec "Magic" into it that can develop around high levels of mana. If this was the case, they should be dead of old age when the mana level droped. I could buy them going to sleep just like the Dragons did.


That's kinda what I meant. If there are examples of an IE being awake during the downtime I call BS.

Unless its Elrohn* the Scribe. I could totally see that guy staying up so late making notes that it gets to be morning^ and he didn't notice.

*Or however his damn name is spelled

^5000 years later. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Tzeentch
post Jun 11 2010, 07:42 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 11 2010, 10:23 AM) *
I disagree. Most totems also have an emotional core - vanity with Cat, stubborn loyalty with Dog, tough love with Bear, aloof arrogance with Eagle.

-- Passions are similar to Mentor Spirits but more powerful, as a single Passion controls the purvue of multiple mentors. Passions can also grant what I guess would map to adept powers to their followers.
QUOTE
Also, totems used to grant magic before SR4 screwed things up. Not as the only way there is to magic, but as one way. Furthermore, there are the more abstract Idols of Europe (which are basically states of mind/emotions the mind then builds an Avatar for). While agreeably not the same, Totems work quite along the same line as Passions did - enough to give someone an idea of what a Passion roughly is.

-- Yup, they fit in easily with the Shadowrun 4e design space either as mentor spirits/paragons being aspects of them, or as meta-mentors (with a higher BP cost and more "goodies" attached).
-- That of course doesn't explain why they are so hush-hush in Shadowrun ... OMG NINJA ELF ASSASSINS AT THE DOOR BRB
QUOTE
Given that Passions seem like extra powerful spirits, there might be a way. Not strictly by canon, though, only by extrapolation (especially with dragons, who are half spirit in nature anyway).

-- I don't see it happening. Noone became a Passion in Earthdawn that I'm aware of, and there were a LOT of magical beasties and people back then (hell, almost everyone was an Adept at least, in Shadowrun terms).
-- Ascending to become a more generalized guardian spirit sure. It's arguable that the mentor spirits are really external things at all though.
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MindandPen
post Jun 11 2010, 07:44 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 11 2010, 11:51 AM) *
I prefer to think of them as being innately "like" the dragons. So in the manner in which you would like them to be, I see it as a passive thing that's inherent to their DNA somehow, and like dragons they too can die from wounds. Old age maybe, but along the lines of "millenia" and not "decades." Long enough that the rest of us go, "ok, immortal, got it" and move on.


I thought they were the Dragonkin (literally, children of Dragons and elves) from Earthdawn.

-M&P
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Draco18s
post Jun 11 2010, 07:56 PM
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QUOTE (MindandPen @ Jun 11 2010, 02:44 PM) *
I thought they were the Dragonkin (literally, children of Dragons and elves) from Earthdawn.


Possible. I'm not up on my Earthdawn mythology.
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Samoth
post Jun 11 2010, 07:57 PM
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Yeah that's right, they were originally the creations of the dragons. They were supposed to be slaves, but eventually they fought back and became free, which is why the dragons then created Drakes to fill the slave roles.
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Dr.Rockso
post Jun 11 2010, 08:00 PM
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So which dragon did Ehran knock up then?

EDIT:Spelling
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hobgoblin
post Jun 11 2010, 08:05 PM
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whoever it was, the lizard was a cold one...
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Samoth
post Jun 11 2010, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE (Dr.Rockso @ Jun 11 2010, 08:00 PM) *
So which dragon did Ehran knock up then?

EDIT:Spelling

None, if you're referring to Frosty, Immortal elves can have immortal offspring (though sometimes they dont).
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Dr.Rockso
post Jun 11 2010, 08:10 PM
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QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 11 2010, 03:06 PM) *
None, if you're referring to Frosty, Immortal elves can have immortal offspring (though sometimes they dont).

Then what other cold hearted lizard is Frosty's mother? And further, why would she left Ehran wager their daughter in friggin' duel?!(at least I think thats how it went down)
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Brazilian_Shinob...
post Jun 11 2010, 08:17 PM
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QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jun 11 2010, 04:09 PM) *
That's kinda what I meant. If there are examples of an IE being awake during the downtime I call BS.

Unless its Elrohn* the Scribe. I could totally see that guy staying up so late making notes that it gets to be morning^ and he didn't notice.

*Or however his damn name is spelled

^5000 years later. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


I'll ask the more wise on Shadowrun-lore (Ancient History, I choose you) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) But I remember someone saying Leonardo da Vinci was an Immortal Elf (or was being helped by one) among other similar stuff. If it wouldn't be such a big comotion, I could totally see someone saying that Jesus was also an IE.
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hobgoblin
post Jun 11 2010, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jun 11 2010, 10:17 PM) *
I'll ask the more wise on Shadowrun-lore (Ancient History, I choose you) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) But I remember someone saying Leonardo da Vinci was an Immortal Elf (or was being helped by one) among other similar stuff. If it wouldn't be such a big comotion, I could totally see someone saying that Jesus was also an IE.

there was a elf known as leonardo that had some off the scale cyberdeck he loved to play with. He claimed to be leonardo da vinci, but i am unsure if any of the big name IE's ever backed up his claim. Either he became lunch for lofwyr, or is locked away in some R&D lab somewhere.
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Dr.Rockso
post Jun 11 2010, 08:29 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 11 2010, 03:23 PM) *
there was a elf known as leonardo that had some off the scale cyberdeck he loved to play with. He claimed to be leonardo da vinci, but i am unsure if any of the big name IE's ever backed up his claim. Either he became lunch for lofwyr, or is locked away in some R&D lab somewhere.

If I recall correctly Leo had a hand in the creation of either Morgan or Deus
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Martin_DeVries_I...
post Jun 11 2010, 08:57 PM
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The stuff I just read from AH's site suggests that Lofwyr stole Leonardo away from Renraku and he's now working at an Antarctic research station for SK, helping them reach beyond the SOTA. Comments in shadowtalk from various IEs suggests this 6thWorld Leonardo may be the elf they refer to as Brightlight. Earthdawn contained an elf named Leonarus, who was also obsessed with light (just like Leonardo).
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hermit
post Jun 11 2010, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE
If I recall correctly Leo had a hand in the creation of either Morgan or Deus

He sold some of his Knowledge of computer science to Raku, who then went on and created Morgan with it, harvested her for Deus' code and on the side created Megaira. The Elf is known as Lightbringer or Bright Light and is one of two who mattered historically (the other being Alachia, who was Queen Elisabeth). The other I spent the time becoming quietly rich or get on each others' nerves (or, in Harles' and Aina's case, lesading an abusive relationship and taking turns in being junkies).

Some had a hand, but less directly. Most just slacked it or got by silently.
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