Infiltrator Critique:, [SR4] Options

[Generic_PC]

450BP, This is an Ork Infiltrator I'm making. The premise being that I can disguise myself as a janitor or a plumber or an electrician and get almost anywhere. Other than being an infiltrator, I want this character to be good at cracking locks, of most, if not all kinds, to be decent in a fight.

Male Ogre (20BP)
Body: 4 (0BP)
Agility: 5 (40BP)
Reaction: 5 (40BP)
Strength: 3 (0BP)
Charisma: 3 (20BP)
Intiution: 5 (40BP)
Logic: 4 (30BP)
Willpower: 4 (30BP)
Edge: 6 (65BP)
Magic: 0 (Mundane)

Skills: (144BP)
Stealth*: 4 (Likely to be split after creation.)
Pistols (Semi-Auto): 3(5)
Longarms (Sniper Rifles): 3(5)
Perception (Visual): 2(4)
Dodge: 3
Con: 3
Negotiation: 3
Hardware: 3
Exotic Melee Weapon: 3
Locksmithing: 1

Negative Qualities: (-30)
Simsense Vertigo (-10)
Incompetent (First Aid) (-5)
Incompetent (Leadership) (-5)
Addiction (Alchohol, Mild) (-5)
Weak Immune System (-5)

With 50BP for Nuyen, that leaves me with a big 5BP for contacts. Ugh. I'd go through my equipment first and drop some nuyen if I can before I would drop skills, but I have no idea what kinds of contacts or gear is needed, beyond a general sense. Is the 6 edge needed? I want this character to be luckier than average.

Another example: From experience, can I get past most key locks with an autopicker L6 and my agility of 5, or is the 1 rank of locksmithing valuable?

[remmus]

With 50BP for Nuyen

50BP worth of gear? so far I spent 10BP on gear and I have everything from cyberwares to guns, what on earth are you gonna buy with 250 000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ?

[Generic_PC]

I'm being... pessimistic. As the most possible, it seems to me that I will not go higher than that. Yes?

[remmus]

I'm being... pessimistic. As the most possible, it seems to me that I will not go higher than that. Yes?

my best suggestion if you have´t bought your gear yet start by spending 10-15BP and start buy the gear you think you need and spend more BP from there if needed (but remember it´s better to be turning the coins and play it cheap with the gear now and save the BP then blow a shit load of BP worth of gear and have them striped by the GM if he feels like giving you a up hill experience )

[Generic_PC]

True, but most of my costs will be 'ware. I'm somewhat confident that unless I die, I'll be keeping it. In which case, I won't be too worried about it. If, on the other hand, someone is cutting me open while I'm unconcious and stealing my 'ware, I'm probably going to be left there to die anyway.

If I don't need 50BP, i'll drop it down. If I do, I don't need to worry about cutting skills that I want or dropping attributes that I'd prefer to keep.

Something I've been thinking of: Dropping Edge down to 5. Gives me 25 points to play with.

[remmus]

True, but most of my costs will be 'ware. I'm somewhat confident that unless I die, I'll be keeping it. In which case, I won't be too worried about it. If, on the other hand, someone is cutting me open while I'm unconcious and stealing my 'ware, I'm probably going to be left there to die anyway.

If I don't need 50BP, i'll drop it down. If I do, I don't need to worry about cutting skills that I want or dropping attributes that I'd prefer to keep.

eh being heavy on the ware as a infiltrator isn´t so wise as many powerful organisation being there government or corp have the technology to scan ware if I´m not mistaken, and if they notice Bill the janitor has enough ware to be a walking tank you might have it hot for yourself

[twilite]

If you really want to be good at social infiltration, then you need better than 6 dice (3 Cha and 3 Con) to succeed. You are better off with an Elf for higher Charisma and Agilty, possibly Surging to get an even higher minimum and maximum in a stat. You are going to want to be either and Adept or Mystic Adept, in order to get higher skills from Kinesics and Improved Abilities. Mystic also allows Counterspelling (against detection or mind altering spells) and summoning spirits with the Concealment power. As an alternate to an Elf, get another race with no reduced Cha, spend 5 positive points on Restricted Gear for a Force 5 Sustaining Focus (Health) and cast Improved Attribute (Charisma) on yourself to get up to 9. There are some qualities you might want to look at, depending on your taste, such as Bland or Human looking.

After initiation with a Mystic Adept, you can also get Masking to help disguise your magical nature. I am not sure if there is a defense against people reading your aura with assensing to see if you are lying/your emotional state, but if there is it will almost certainly require you to be magically active.

Even with tons of nuyen spent on gear as a mundane, and with lots of Cyber, there is very little that helps you with Conning or Infiltrating that you couldn't get as someone magically active- really, Enhanced Articulation, Muscle Toner and the Pheromones are the only things that come easily to mind. At worst, you can sacrifice a point of magic to get some of them too. You can wear a stealth suit and get emotitoys just as well when you are an adept. For pure combat, and to some extent Matrix or Rigger work, Mundanes with heavy cyber do well. For being a Face (social manipulator) or an Infiltrator (stealthed insertions) they are pretty much inferior to magically active types.

Take all this with a grain of salt- most of my experience has been with playing mages. Also, in the end, do what your concept tells you, enjoy the character, even if you aren't as skilled at your area as you might like.

[Glyph]

I would definitely, definitely drop Edge to 5, which is plenty. A piddling extra die is not worth 25 build points. Especially since a covert ops specialist is a concept that takes a lot of careful allocating of build points.

I would possibly use those points to boost social skills a bit (also consider the impersonation specialization for con), and you might want to consider moving a point from Willpower to Charisma. But I wouldn't change to elf - you lose too many points that way, on top of having to move even more from other Attributes to take advantage of a higher possible Charisma. Elves are good at a variety of face-type roles, including social chameleons and infiltrators. But you would only be able to do that if you took a really big hit on your break-in and combat abilities. You won't be quite as good as a smooth-talking elf, but you're not trying to pretend you're the boss's son - more often, you will be pretending to be Luigi the plumber, to fool the security guard at a checkpoint. So 8+ dice will usually do the job. I would probably raise the two you have by a point each, get that specialization, and get etiquette: 2 or 3 (because that is the "fitting in" skill).

Your 'ware will be the most expensive part of the character, since if you are going to be disguised a lot, a fake cyberware license won't get you out of trouble. So if you augment yourself, your best bet will be mainly bioware. Things like synaptic booster, muscle toner, cerebral booster, reflex recorders, enhanced articulation, tailored pheromones, and synthcardium are all very useful to have (you might want to replace dodge with gymnastics, or if you take synthcardium, even the Athletics group at 1). You might consider some cyberware - mainly headware and senseware.

[Generic_PC]

eh being heavy on the ware as a infiltrator isn´t so wise as many powerful organisation being there government or corp have the technology to scan ware if I´m not mistaken, and if they notice Bill the janitor has enough ware to be a walking tank you might have it hot for yourself

I was planning on mostly bioware. Maybe some cyberware, but everyone has some. Eyes, maybe ears.

If you really want to be good at social infiltration, then you need better than 6 dice (3 Cha and 3 Con) to succeed. You are better off with an Elf for higher Charisma and Agilty, possibly Surging to get an even higher minimum and maximum in a stat. You are going to want to be either and Adept or Mystic Adept, in order to get higher skills from Kinesics and Improved Abilities. Mystic also allows Counterspelling (against detection or mind altering spells) and summoning spirits with the Concealment power. As an alternate to an Elf, get another race with no reduced Cha, spend 5 positive points on Restricted Gear for a Force 5 Sustaining Focus (Health) and cast Improved Attribute (Charisma) on yourself to get up to 9. There are some qualities you might want to look at, depending on your taste, such as Bland or Human looking.

After initiation with a Mystic Adept, you can also get Masking to help disguise your magical nature. I am not sure if there is a defense against people reading your aura with assensing to see if you are lying/your emotional state, but if there is it will almost certainly require you to be magically active.

Even with tons of nuyen spent on gear as a mundane, and with lots of Cyber, there is very little that helps you with Conning or Infiltrating that you couldn't get as someone magically active- really, Enhanced Articulation, Muscle Toner and the Pheromones are the only things that come easily to mind. At worst, you can sacrifice a point of magic to get some of them too. You can wear a stealth suit and get emotitoys just as well when you are an adept. For pure combat, and to some extent Matrix or Rigger work, Mundanes with heavy cyber do well. For being a Face (social manipulator) or an Infiltrator (stealthed insertions) they are pretty much inferior to magically active types.

Take all this with a grain of salt- most of my experience has been with playing mages. Also, in the end, do what your concept tells you, enjoy the character, even if you aren't as skilled at your area as you might like.

I don't really want to be 'good' at social infiltration, just passable. If need be, Tailored Pheromones are an easy solution to this. Ultimately, I suppose it'll become needed...

I also am pretty much set on being mundane, though you are correct in that it is an inferior choice to an adept, and moreso to a 'wared adept. I suppose I could slide into adept, if I really need to to be effective. What would you recommend, as a wared adept? Kinesics and Improved Abilities are the too most obvious, but are there any others? If I went wared adept, I'd go for masking. Being able to show off the 'ware, then do awesome tricks, then have no signature, means you don't know what they'll classify you as.

Also, how would my build change? As far as I can tell, I'd be dropping edge to 4, probably charisma to 2, and Magic to 5.

I would definitely, definitely drop Edge to 5, which is plenty. A piddling extra die is not worth 25 build points. Especially since a covert ops specialist is a concept that takes a lot of careful allocating of build points.

I would possibly use those points to boost social skills a bit (also consider the impersonation specialization for con), and you might want to consider moving a point from Willpower to Charisma. But I wouldn't change to elf - you lose too many points that way, on top of having to move even more from other Attributes to take advantage of a higher possible Charisma. Elves are good at a variety of face-type roles, including social chameleons and infiltrators. But you would only be able to do that if you took a really big hit on your break-in and combat abilities. You won't be quite as good as a smooth-talking elf, but you're not trying to pretend you're the boss's son - more often, you will be pretending to be Luigi the plumber, to fool the security guard at a checkpoint. So 8+ dice will usually do the job. I would probably raise the two you have by a point each, get that specialization, and get etiquette: 2 or 3 (because that is the "fitting in" skill).

Your 'ware will be the most expensive part of the character, since if you are going to be disguised a lot, a fake cyberware license won't get you out of trouble. So if you augment yourself, your best bet will be mainly bioware. Things like synaptic booster, muscle toner, cerebral booster, reflex recorders, enhanced articulation, tailored pheromones, and synthcardium are all very useful to have (you might want to replace dodge with gymnastics, or if you take synthcardium, even the Athletics group at 1). You might consider some cyberware - mainly headware and senseware.

I've decided I will. Like you said, the single die isn't worth 25BP.

Throwing 10 of those points in Cha, 8 into etiquette and 2 into specializing disguise... Gives me 10 points, still.

Important for an adept: If I go this route, can I find 30 free points for a Type O System? it Halves the amout of essence cost I take from basic bioware, at no cost. (Essentially, you get deltaware for bioware, automatically, when buying off the shelf.) I can't use used bioware, but tradeoffs, right?

Also, genetech (from Augmentation) can provide me with +1 to all intuition based skills and +1 to all intuition rolls, in two seperate genemods. Also, +1 to logic rolls and maybe some other stuff too, if I look more closely.

[Udoshi]

Type-O only works for Basic Bioware - not Cultured Bioware. The biocompatability trait, however, does - and its stacks with grade, and is conveniently ten points.

[Glyph]

You already have the full 200 spent on base Attributes, which is why I suggested moving a point of Willpower instead of simply increasing Charisma.

Adepts, to be honest, really work better with specialist builds than generalist ones. If you do go that route, I would either go ahead and drop Edge to 3, or drop a point from Willpower instead of Charisma. For an infiltrator type, facial sculpt and melanin control are both good powers, as is nimble fingers. Type O system is, honestly, not really worth if for an awakened character who will only be taking one or two points' worth of 'ware.

[Generic_PC]

I think that if I build an adept, I'm going to have to rethink my character. Being a generalist, as was said above, won't work when I need to take Improved Ability for every single one of my important skills.

This means that I need to deal with what I have.

So, a repost, with some small changes...

Male Ogre (20BP)
Body: 4 (0BP)
Agility: 5 (40BP) [7]
Reaction: 5 (40BP) [7]
Strength: 3 (0BP)
Charisma: 3 (20BP)
Intiution: 5 (40BP)
Logic: 4 (30BP)
Willpower: 4 (30BP)
Edge: 5 (40BP)
Magic: 0 (Mundane)
Initiative: 12 [3IP]
Essence: 4.64

Skills: (152BP)
Stealth*: 4 (Likely to be split after creation.)
Pistols (Semi-Auto): 3(5)
Longarms (Sniper Rifles): 3(5)
Perception (Visual): 2(4)
Dodge: 3
Con: 3
Negotiation: 3
Hardware: 3
Etiquette: 3
Exotic Melee Weapon (Monofilament Whip): 3
Etiquette: 2
Locksmithing: 1

Negative Qualities: (-30)
Simsense Vertigo (-10)
Incompetent (First Aid) (-5)
Incompetent (Leadership) (-5)
Addiction (Alchohol, Mild) (-5)
Weak Immune System (-5)

Positive Qualities: (10)
Biocompatibility: Bioware (10)

Currently, 9BP for contacts, and 50BP for resources. Again, that 50BP might drop. Currently, for stuff, I'm looking at:

Muscle Toner (2): Rating 10R, Essence 0.36 and 16000 nuyen.
Synaptic Booster (2): Rating 12R, Essence 0.9 and 160000 nuyen
Sleep Regulator: Rating 4, Essence 0.13 and 10000 nuyen
Fingertip Compartment: Rating 4, Essence 0.1, 750 nuyen

(Subtotal: 186750. Wishlist: Muscle Toner 4, Synaptic Booster 3, Tailored Pheromones 3. Muscle Toner is 32000, Synaptic Booster is 240000 and Tailored Pheromones is 45000.)

Other gear:
Monofilament Whip, personalized grip (3100)
Ares Predator IV (1550)
-Improved Range Finder
-Personalized Grip
-Concealable Holster
-Spare Clips (5)
HK PSG Enforcer (15720)
-Easy Breakdown Manual
-Smartgun
-Improved Rangefinder
-Personalized Grip
-Silencer
-Spare Clips (4)

And thus, the first part is complete. Now, sleeps. As a small aside, I won't have urban infiltration or impersonation con until we get our first karmas.

[Cthulhudreams]

An inflirator without the athletics group seems a bit bad - cannot climb walls, jump from roof etc. If you added that, you could also drop dodge and use gymnastics.

[Generic_PC]

The problem is that I just don't have the points for athletics. It's a slightly sad state of affairs, I agree. However, defaulting isn't too painful, especially with 5 edge in high danger situations.

[Cthulhudreams]

You could potentially save some points by switching to automatics and using machine pistols and assault rifles?

[Cthulhudreams]

Sorry for double post - you've got 3 social skills, so buying the group will be a break even proposition.

Also if you're planning to play this for a while, I'd drop all my specalisations.

And take the last 5 points of disadvantages, sheesh.

[Thanee]

I really don't see how this character needs sniper rifles. There are some points you can save.
The monowhip is also somewhat questionable, though it surely is a good weapon.

Also, with just 7 dice you will be looking at spending Edge on every attempt to open a maglock or similar.
Hardware 5 is pretty much mandatory, as is higher Logic (Cerebral Booster maybe?).

The point is, you try to be too many things at the same time, I think.

Oh, and you have Etiquette listed twice in your second sheet.

Bye
Thanee

[Generic_PC]

You could potentially save some points by switching to automatics and using machine pistols and assault rifles?

You know, I haven't thought of that. Assualt Rifles are pretty good as sniper rifle analogues, but how well do machine pistols stack up to regular pistols?

I actually need ten points of disadvantages. Taking influence as a group means getting leadership, so I can't be incompetent. The slightly powergamey, and not great, for me, alternative, is taking something like Incompetent (Pilot Anthroform and Watercraft)...

Is biocompatibility really worth it, if I'm not considering going Adept?

Alternately, if I am going adept, how do I focus so that I'm not spending all my points on Improved Ability 1?

@ Thanee: I know that I'm spread too thin. It's unfortunate. The problem is that I can't be prepared for everything, but I want to be.

EDIT: is it just me, or is the Ares Alpha by far and away the best assault rifle?

[remmus]

@ Thanee: I know that I'm spread too thin. It's unfortunate. The problem is that I can't be prepared for everything, but I want to be.

well that´s why Shadowrunners often work in teams, so each can focus more at being excellent in a few skill and let team members cover the weak points

[Generic_PC]

well that´s why Shadowrunners often work in teams, so each can focus more at being excellent in a few skill and let team members cover the weak points

The problem here is that, as far as I can tell, I'm the only person even remotely prepared to do this. Originally, I was hoping that Thanee would cover some of my weaker points, but he seemed to decide that I had it all covered. I don't exactly blame him for that, but it will make my life that much harder.

[remmus]

The problem here is that, as far as I can tell, I'm the only person even remotely prepared to do this. Originally, I was hoping that Thanee would cover some of my weaker points, but he seemed to decide that I had it all covered. I don't exactly blame him for that, but it will make my life that much harder.

yeah but for example we already have a sniper so you can ditch the sniper rifle and skill, we have a few combat specialist so you don´t need much for that maybe a pistol for self defence, I´ll cover hacking and other matrix work so I don´t see how you can´t simply spec on being the guy that goes in and out of places and steal or plant stuff.

[Generic_PC]

Hmm. I didn't realize we had a sniper. I'll drop that.

I don't have any hacking skills. Hardware is primarily for getting past maglocks and keypads.

Ultimately, I think I need to firm up on equipment. I'll do that now, but it'll help me decide what I don't need and what I do.

As an aside, for the character, here is a list of absolutely mandatory.

Stealth. I've already got it as a 4, so whatever.
One skill from firearms. Whatever.
Influence. Preferably really high. I don't need leadership, but I need etiquette, negotiation and con. I guess freebies aren't bad...
Locksmithing. 1 rank and a R6 autopicker is fine.
Hardware. Need to crack all those maglocks. What'd you think about spec. in Maglocks?
I'd like a melee skill. A hold-over from SR3, where if you got into melee without one, you died. The monofilament whip is a great way to do this.

I'll see how the chips fall as I rebuild this. We'll see what needs to be redone.

Male Ogre (20BP)
Body: 4 (0BP)
Agility: 5 (40BP) [7]
Reaction: 5 (40BP) [7]
Strength: 3 (0BP)
Charisma: 4 (30BP)
Intiution: 5 (40BP)
Logic: 3 (20BP) [5]
Willpower: 4 (30BP)
Edge: 5 (40BP)
Magic: 0 (Mundane)
Initiative: 12 [3IP]
Essence: 4.1

Skills: [146BP]
Stealth*, Influence* 4
Pistols [SA], Exotic Melee Weapon (Monofilament Whip), Hardware [Maglocks] 3[5]
Dodge, Perception [Visual] 2[4]
Locksmithing 1

Qualities: (-35BP)
Simsense Vertigo (-10)
Addiction [Alchohol, Mild] (-5)
Weak Immune System (-5)
Incompetent [First Aid, Cybertechnology, Medicine] (-15)

Resources: (49BP, 245000) [Of this, 244670 has been spent]
Lifestyle: Medium, 1 Month (5000)
Ware: (207750, 1.9)
Move-By-Wire 2 (170000, 2.4)
Cerebral Booster 2 (20000, 0.4)
Muscle Toner 2 (16000, 0.4)
Smartlink (1000, 0.1)
Fingertip Compartment (750, 0.1)
Weapons: (4550)
Ares Predator IV (1450)
-Personalized Grip (1/6)
-Silencer (3/6)
-Extended Clip (4/6)
-Concealable Holster
-Spare Clips (5)
Monofilament Whip (3100)
-Personalized Grip
Ammo: (460)
100 rounds, normal (200)
20 rounds, gel (60)
20 rounds, ex-explosive (200)
Other gear: (26910)
Assorted Outfits. Janitor, Plumber, Electrician, Courier, etc. {I need ideas for these. Anything to get me in.} (currently, 1600. This assumes a couple sets of clothing and a couple sets of disguise.)
Chameleon Suit (9000) {For more... Hardcore infiltration} (also, Thermal Dampening 2)
Armour Vest (600) {For use underneath those clothes. Good protection, no attention.}
Lined Coat (700) {A janitor doesn't need to get wet...}
Autopicker, L6 (1200)
Fake SIN (L3) (3300)
-Fake License (L3), Ares Predator IV
-Commlink (4550) (Hermes Ikon, OS Iris Orb) (+Satlink, Subvocal Microphone, Skinlink)
Fake SIN (L2) (2000)
-Commlink (950) (CMT Clip, Renraku Ichi) (+Subvocal Microphone)
Tag Eraser (150)
Contact Lenses, Image Link, Flare Compensation (125)
Glasses, Thermographic (125)
Radio Signal Scanner R6 (Micro, disguised as a rubbed out coin) (150)
Keycard Copier R6 (1800)
Empathy Sensor R3 (600)
Glasscutter (10)
Laes Cigarettex2 (50)



Now, this build gives me: 200BP in Attributes, 146BP in skills, 47BP in resources, 40BP in Edge, 20BP in Race and -35BP in Qualities. This gives me a total of 418BP spent, or 32BP to spend on contacts and positive qualities.

[Saint Sithney]

Forget that Synaptic Booster BS. Take 5 bp for restricted gear and get a Move-by-Wire lvl 2 system. That'll give you the lvl 4 skillwires a generalist needs and +4 reaction +2 dodge +2 Initiative Passes. If your GM allows it, you might even be able to attach a skillwire expert system so you can use edge rerolls on your skillsofts. And, since you're looking to con people into thinking you're a repairman, you should be able to con-vince anyone with a cyberware scanner that it's just an attention coprocessor and some regular skillwires like a tech might have. And, with the money you save from dropping the Synaptic Booster 2 and the Muscle Toner 2, you could even get an Alphaware version of the wires to keep your essence loss down.

Edt: Another thing to consider - Dump the cerebral booster for a Cyberhand with a used rating 2 nanohive in it. Then you can get lvl 3 Limbic and Neocortical Neural amplifier nanos to boost both your Logic and Intuition linked skills by 3 (too bad it doesn't boost your intuition for initiative and the nano doesn't give you benefit in a combat situation.) Still total cost = 40k + the hand for 6 attribute-linked dice. Total essence cost .125 for the hand and 0 for everything else.

[Generic_PC]

Oh... Damn. Thats devious. I'm used to SR3, where MBW is basically a ticket to death, so I totally ignored it as an option. But it's awesome. It saves me like 70 thousand too. I might as well get some more stuff, if I'm going that far. I'll edit my stuff.

For Skillsofts, I've got what, 8 ranks of skills to play with. Thats good, for stuff I haven't bothered to learn.

I'm gonna get MBW as alphaware. The 0.6 essence saved is worth 85000?

This means I have 29 for contacts, but this is a much better choice. I'll drop dodge down to a 2.

I don't know enough about nanotech to make a decision on the hand+nanohive.

[EvilP]

I'm surprised that there's no climbing skill in there. if you're going to infiltrate I'd say it's pretty much a requirement. Wear gecko gloves, crawl straight up walls while wearing the chameleon suit and break your way into the buildings from the top.

Also you could spend another BP on purchasing a good handheld sensor package so you can check for hidden security measures. Non linear junction detector, ultra wide band radar, olfactory sensor, MAD scanner and a directional microphone and the like might come in very handy if you're going to sneak around and pick locks. This way you can check if there is a cybered up troll on the other side of the door before it's too late.