Stun SOP, Share your non-lethal alternatives Options

[Ascalaphus]

A run with no unnecessary* casualties: how would you do it? What equipment works well, what are the most useful spells, and what kind of tactics should you consider? What obstacles should you beware of?


*I.E. for wetwork only the paid-for target dies. Civilians stay alive at all times, and preferably all the guards too.

[crizh]

One thing you should be aware of is that 'Immediate' does not mean what you think it means.

Chemicals are completely worthless for surprise or silent takedowns.

Use SnS instead.

[Dakka Dakka]

Yup SnS or Stunbolt/ball followed by signature removal

[Doc Byte]

Ingram Smartgun X + SnS firing anything from narrow bursts to wide full burst. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Traul]

Is there no bonus to hear a weapon firing a burst? There used to be one in SR3. If so, a gun to fire single bullets would be a better choice for infiltration.

[Doc Byte]

The Mac X comes with an internal sound suppressor and you can mod it with electronic firing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[crizh]

The SA Fire Selection mod is pretty cheap too.

[Dakka Dakka]

Is there no bonus to hear a weapon firing a burst? There used to be one in SR3. If so, a gun to fire single bullets would be a better choice for infiltration.

There isn't in SR4. Also with a single SnS projectile it is pretty difficult (5+ net hits) to incapacitate anyone.

[Marcus]

Chem rounds Loaded DMSO-NarcoJet.
Contact poison requires 0 success thresh hold, Ignores any armor that isn't chem rated, and is the nearly-perfect solution to the non-lethal question.
Downsides its like 70 NY a shot. But nothing's perfect.

[Dakka Dakka]

And the victim has a whole combat turn to react and retaliate.

[Warlordtheft]

CZ120-silencer, capsule rounds with DMSO and narcojet. Enough said.

Note:DMSO and Narco Jet are instantaneous, and don't have a speed.

[Sixgun_Sage]

SnS really is the way to go with non-lethal methods, then you dose the bastards with something like slab or time-released doses of narco to keep them down, also, duct tape is your friend. Remember, in the shadows paranoia is a survival mechanism.

[Dakka Dakka]

Note:DMSO and Narco Jet are instantaneous, and don't have a speed.

Wrong, they have a speed of Immediate, which means:

Immediate means the Effect is applied at the end of the Combat Turn the victim is exposed to the toxin.

[Marcus]

It's true about Immediate. But I still think its the best most sure way to get it done, if it makes you feel better you can pare it up with Stick and Shocks.
-2 is a -2.

[Traul]

Immediate toxins work fine if you have Surprise (as you should when you sneaking in) and the guard has only one IP: he cannot use his action to react to your attack, so he cannot call his friends. And as he does not sffer any immediate damage, a perception roll might be required to detect he has been attacked at all.

[Dakka Dakka]

According to the rules that is not the case:

Characters who are surprised cannot take any actions that directly affect, impede, or counteract characters that have surprised them. This means surprised characters cannot attack those who surprised them, nor can they dodge or defend against attacks from those characters. The surprised character also cannot react to those characters’ actions in any way. The surprised character can, however, carry out other actions that are not specifically directed at any surprising characters, such as dropping prone or readying a weapon (but not firing it).

Thus he can still call for help and if he can deduce what hit him apply an antidote or stim patch. Also not all opposition has only one IP.

[Traul]

He still needs to detect the attack. If he does not, he can have as many IPs as he wants, that won't save him. High level oposition should be carrying a biomonitor for that.

[Fezig]

As has already been stated, SnS with burst fire is your friend. I would also suggest zip-ties and duct tape for restraining those you've incapacitated, as well as general use of illusion spells and other effects to avoid combat. You want to plan extensively, minimize combat opportunities, and have at least two exit strategies that are simple and different.

Also, a good hacker is wonderful for this type of run. They need to take care of the cameras, sensors, etc, as well as handling any communications that happen to get out from a guard who doesn't get surprised.

Lastly, have a plan for when you screw it up completely during the first 3 minutes and need to cowboy it up and move. Spray SnS rounds, thermal and regular smoke, and AoE Spells.

[Dakka Dakka]

Capsule Rounds do a minimum of 5S unless they are delivered with a slingshot. Injection Arrows/Bolts do a minimum of 3S. How can somebody not notice that? Especially with a firearm the unaugmented cop is likely to be knocked down.

[Traul]

Capsule Rounds do a minimum of 5S unless they are delivered with a slingshot. Injection Arrows/Bolts do a minimum of 3S. How can somebody not notice that? Especially with a firearm the unaugmented cop is likely to be knocked down.

That's when using usual weapons to deliver chemicals. The dart guns and squirt guns are powered by compressed air and not deal any physical damage.

[Ol' Scratch]

Capsule Rounds do a minimum of 5S unless they are delivered with a slingshot. Injection Arrows/Bolts do a minimum of 3S. How can somebody not notice that? Especially with a firearm the unaugmented cop is likely to be knocked down.

That's why I, personally, like using Capsule Rounds loaded with DMSO/Leäl. Knock 'em out with the Capsule Round and let the contents erase their memories so they'll never know you shot them.

[crizh]

That's why I, personally, like using Capsule Rounds loaded with DMSO/Leäl. Knock 'em out with the Capsule Round and let the contents erase their memories so they'll never know you shot them.

That's definitely a Sniper tactic rather than a blasting away on full-auto one. I do love Leal though...

[Dakka Dakka]

@Traul: Your right about those weapons, but you have to learn an exotic ranged weapon for each of them. SnS in an SMG or any other BF/FA weapon is the better bang for your buck IMHO. A Slingshot may be the only "cheap alternative"

@Dr. Funkenstein: You do know that excessive stun damage is transferred to the Physical Condition Monitor, right? This puts the guard in the hospital if it doesn't kill him right away. Unfortunately there is no way to safely erase the memory of an already unconscious person by mundane means.

BTW is damage increased by net hits for the dart guns/slingshots etc.? I find it hard to believe that a weapon that can deliver its projectile up to 750m doesn't do any damage to soft tissue at least at close range. Taser and Light Pistol Ranges would have been more believable.

[Ol' Scratch]

@Dr. Funkenstein: You do know that excessive stun damage is transferred to the Physical Condition Monitor, right? This puts the guard in the hospital if it doesn't kill him right away. Unfortunately there is no way to safely erase the memory of an already unconscious person by mundane means.

That's true of nearly any use of Capsule Rounds. If and when they do survive, though, it's better that they not be able to remember what the fuck happened.

[MikeKozar]

According to the rules that is not the case:
Thus he can still call for help and if he can deduce what hit him apply an antidote or stim patch. Also not all opposition has only one IP.

I dunno, the line about "The surprised character also cannot react to those characters’ actions in any way. " sounds like a good case for them getting caught completely flat-footed and not getting the alert off. I guess they could get away with it if they were to take an action to call base and say "Hey, Steve! Yeah, Jack here, out on Perimeter three. Good, good. No, I've got a situation here. Well, I can't talk about what it is. Nope. Not allowed to react to it. So, since I've got a turn to kill, thought I'd check in. Yeah, until the end of the combat turn. Can't say. Hypothetically, sure. Now that you mention it, I do feel a tingling in my extremities. Okay, that's my turn. Good catching up, say hi to Laurie for me!" (THUD)


Judgement call, of course. It all comes down to whether the GM wants tranq weapons to be a valid infiltration tool or not. If he likes 'em, the guards won't have time to call in before it takes effect, but if the GM thinks it's dumb: they'll hit the alarm, crash to the floor loud enough to alert the next post, or just have a biomonitor to call in a downed guard.

The moral of this (and indeed every other) story is that you need to be on the same page as your GM or your run will go South so fast your Johnson will show up in a white suit with a hounddog and a mint julip.