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> Where too, boss?, Technomancer character improvement
Johnny B. Good
post Nov 16 2009, 08:28 AM
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I'm new to both shadowrun and dumpshock, and I've reached an impasse about my second character, a Technomancer. He's currently a matrix specialist, and he's good at little else. I've been thinking about getting more increased system and possibly cerebral implants to let him use complex forms with absolutely ridiculous ratings, but I've also been thinking about branching out and getting some con skill, or possibly some piloting skills. Even as far as gear goes I have no idea what to do with any of the money. There is so much I can do with this character I don't even know where to start. Advice on character progression, please?

Johnny B. Good
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Warlordtheft
post Nov 16 2009, 03:43 PM
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I'd go for some ettiquitte, con and negotiation (Influence skill group). Your charisma being a 6 it would make a very good secondary role for you with not much effort. If you want to go the Techno-rigger route you could do that as well-but my thought here is to let the machine sprites carry the load (for a while) and gradually build up skills (a rating 2 should be a sufficient start, just remember to add gunnery to your list as well).
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MikeKozar
post Nov 16 2009, 06:24 PM
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Rotordrones with assault rifles make great backup if you can afford them, and they don't really require you to be a drone specialist in order to be effective. If you can score 15,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) you can get a robotic bodyguard with a really impressive set of combat stats, which means you can keep your meat safely hidden and still have someone to play in gunfights.

Making an effective drone is kind of a long process - Pick your base model, Upgrade it, Arm it, Install Sensors, and Load Autosofts. The MCT Rotordrone is 2,000. Upgrade it to Hardened Armor 9 for 1800. Install a basic weapon mount and AK-97 (with bolt-on Smartlink), 2400. Make sure you install R6 sensors in each of the six slots to upgrade the overall sensor package to Rating 6; I managed to spend 7,500 on a visual, audio, chemical and radio package. Load in Clearsight, Defense, and Automatics softs at R3 for a total of 1800.

This guy will get three IPs to attack with a pool of 8, enough armor to make him really hard to stop, roll 12 dice on visual perception tests, detect hidden ammunition and explosives via chemsniffer, detect invisible via Ultrasound sensors, and perform electronic warfare tests like a Sniffer 6. Also, it can fly.

As an upgrade, you might consider swapping the AK-97 for an Ares HVAR with the Safe Target mod. The High-Velocity upgrade means you can fire up to two long bursts a round, and depending on which rules your GM is using about recoil on Drones you'll have either six points of Recoil Compensation or won't suffer any recoil at all. Safe Target ensures that anyone who spoofs or hacks it won't be able to fire its weapon at you or your team.

For sheer firepower, this is 15k well spent. It's an incredibly effective anti-personel weapon that's all but immune to small arms fire, and if it does get blown up, it's expendable. Any round the opposition spends shooting at the drone is a round they aren't shooting at you, after all. Best of all, this doesn't cost you one point of Karma - you can keep upgrading your other skills while you weld your new sidekick together.
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Ryu
post Nov 16 2009, 08:31 PM
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Currently you have the matrix aspect handled (What is the BP/karma level of your characters BTW?), but not much else.

How much karma/money does your char have available/earn per session?
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Johnny B. Good
post Nov 17 2009, 08:38 AM
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3/6 of our first characters died in a final blaze of glory, so three of us are starting from scratch with either 400BP or 750 Karma if we're using a modded karmagen (Which I am). Instead of a cost of new attribute rating x3 karma cost, we use new attribute rating x5. The other three characters are 400BP and have a total of 25 Karma or so. We also have an adept that throws things (anything, really) for base 5P with an absolutely ridiculous dicepool, a troll mechanic with a bow, a face with some pistol skills, a magician based on mind control, a doc/battle magician, and a mundane hacker who is not very good at hacking.

We now get anywhere from 3 karma for easy missions, to 7 or 8 for ones that are likely to kill us (And many of them are).

I really like that drone idea, especially one loaded with a registered machine sprite with the appropriate skillsofts.

I guess my main question would be: Is it better to become a matrix juggernaut or to branch out into other roles that may not already be fulfilled by your party? Or should it be run entirely off of your character's personality? Even then, what're good secondary roles for a squishy, squishy hacker to take?

(Also, if a mod sees this, could you remove the extra O in the title? It's reeeeally bothering me. I get OCD about these things.)
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The Jake
post Nov 17 2009, 09:18 AM
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You only really need to start branching out when you're hitting ceilings on your core abilities. Your matrix abilities are pretty good at a glance. As an elf TM however you would be remiss to not consider getting some secondary face (Influence) skills.

- J.
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Warlordtheft
post Nov 17 2009, 02:58 PM
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I'm of the opposite opinion. You should branch out as much as possible to fill holes in your groups capabilities. The key thing here is the diminishing returns for those extra dice and to keep in mind that a skill of 3 is a professional level skill. I would also strongly suggest talking to your GM as to what his/her expectations are regarding competency. Some seem to think that you need an UBER dice pool to do anything (15+).

Assuming an attribute of 3, going from a 4 to a 5 in a skill increases you capability by 14%, going from 0 to 2 increases the capability by 250% (consider that if you defaulted there is a -1DP).
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Nightfalke
post Nov 17 2009, 04:46 PM
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Elf Face is generally a good idea, but personally I prefer my Hacker and my Face to be two separate people...if only for the reason that you get a -2 penalty to hack the Johnson's commlink while you're talking and trying to get more money out of him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I firmly believe that ou need to maximize your original role before you branch out too much. You're being hired to be an exceptional hacker, not to be a half-assed face.

That being said, every character should have the Influence skill group, IMO, and branching out into a Face type of role would be a (relatively) small investment in points for your character.

So if you feel your hacking skills are good enough, then with a small investment, you can be a secondary face as well. If your game is getting more and more high powered, and you feel your primary hacking skills are falling behind the curve, then power up those skills.
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Orcus Blackweath...
post Nov 17 2009, 07:42 PM
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I play a Technomancer in my game. He is averaging 14 dice for all matrix stuff (around 20 for matrix perception, and around 15 or so for cyber combat). Since I routinely spoof my lifestyle, I am finding that I have a ton of cash available. Since Karma is my big need, I hate to spend it on things that I can get some other way. I acquired the echo biowire, and have been systematically buying every active soft I can find. This does two things, one it spends the cash, and two in a pinch I can roll 7 or 8 dice for almost any skill I need. If I find that I am using it a lot, I buy the skill as a complex form, and don't need to sustain it any more. I also decided to take the Drone path for combat. I am suffering from an agility of 3 weapon skill of 3. I am not going to seriously affect the average combat in the slightest. Rather than waste Karma trying to become mediocre at best, I bought some drones. Sensor 6 coupled with my gunnery skill wire of 4 makes me better than average (though still not approaching the samurai teammates).
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Ryu
post Nov 17 2009, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Nov 17 2009, 09:38 AM) *
3/6 of our first characters died in a final blaze of glory, so three of us are starting from scratch with either 400BP or 750 Karma if we're using a modded karmagen (Which I am). Instead of a cost of new attribute rating x3 karma cost, we use new attribute rating x5. The other three characters are 400BP and have a total of 25 Karma or so. We also have an adept that throws things (anything, really) for base 5P with an absolutely ridiculous dicepool, a troll mechanic with a bow, a face with some pistol skills, a magician based on mind control, a doc/battle magician, and a mundane hacker who is not very good at hacking.

You never know who will be on your team on a given day. Branch out as much as possible. (And leave space for the hacker. A hacker can´t really reach the kind of matrix power your char has.)

Fight by proxy via drones is a good plan. I consider it best to support drone autopilots with sprite powers and intellect. Long-term you might want to get all the skills for jumping in, short-term Dodge and Perception are a must - as they are useful for the meat body, too.

And put one more vote down for Influence 1, please.
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Blade
post Nov 18 2009, 02:11 PM
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There are a lot of opportunities for the technomancer. If you have Unwired, I invite you to take a look at the Echos described in there. With them, technomancers can pull some impressive feats.

For example, there's an echo that let you force people into VR just by touching them, which can be very convenient when combined with a threaded Blackhammer+Psychotropic IC.
You can also get a combination of echoes that will let you learn new skills just by touching skillsofts.
You can also act as fast as a street samurai in the meat world WHILE doing matrix actions at the same time.
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Pollution
post Nov 19 2009, 03:20 PM
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Here's my suggestions (it's what has worked for me).

First off, Influence = good. I agree. So work on that by all means.
Second, there's a MILLION things a Technomancer would spend Karma on. Here's a list of what I personally think is important for your team:

TacSoft. Buy it! Learn it as a CF via Emulation rules in Unwired. It is bar none one of THE most important things for the group's hacker/techno to have. You get +1 die per sensor in the group (or so, look it up) for damned near ALL tests (perception, firearms, dodge, ect...) up to a rating of the software (so a TacSoft rating 4 would be +4 dice with a full team and a drone or two). Get that!

Submersion: See if you can't talk your GM into allowing you to buy optional Echos per Submersion level (again, Unwired). For a pretty cheap cost (like 15 Karma or so) you get another Echo for each Submersion level you achieve. I would recommend taking Biowire (cause, DUH) and then Acceleration. Buy Acceleration again at Sub 2 and again as an optional Echo and you've got 4 IPs in meatspace from which to do whatever you want. I use this to hack from AR without dealing with Black Ice (only hurts you in VR).
If you don't like that idea, one of my favorite Echos is Skinlink. Hack a Maglock by touching it, who needs passkeys and your dice pool WILL be better.
Widgets. These are neat little things that you should try to get into using. They might seem Overpowered to your average GM, but remember they only last for blah time (per widget, again Unwired).

Money-wise, if you got Biowire, you'll have a TON of stuff to buy. Activesofts are great when learned with Biowire and then learned as a CF. They NEVER degrade. Ever.
Look into getting a kick ass lifestyle. There are a TON of neat options for the Technomancer with a customized Lifestyle (think Resonance Well + In Tune). Summon high ranking Sprites at home and bind them with almost no fading issues (thanks to bonuses).

I highly recommend TacSoft, influence and the submersion echos above all else though. If you don't know what to spend Karma/Money on, then you need to go buy Unwired. you'll be SCREAMING for more Nuyen and Karma.
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 19 2009, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Nov 16 2009, 07:24 PM) *
Making an effective drone is kind of a long process - Pick your base model, Upgrade it, Arm it, Install Sensors, and Load Autosofts. The MCT Rotordrone is 2,000. Upgrade it to Hardened Armor 9 for 1800. Install a basic weapon mount and AK-97 (with bolt-on Smartlink), 2400. Make sure you install R6 sensors in each of the six slots to upgrade the overall sensor package to Rating 6; I managed to spend 7,500 on a visual, audio, chemical and radio package. Load in Clearsight, Defense, and Automatics softs at R3 for a total of 1800.

For sheer firepower, this is 15k well spent. It's an incredibly effective anti-personel weapon that's all but immune to small arms fire, and if it does get blown up, it's expendable. Any round the opposition spends shooting at the drone is a round they aren't shooting at you, after all. Best of all, this doesn't cost you one point of Karma - you can keep upgrading your other skills while you weld your new sidekick together.
Why would you install assault rifles in drones? The standard weapon mount can use LMGs as well. Also, unless you mod the weapon to accept ammo belts, which is impossible by RAW AFAIK, you are stuck with the normal ammunition capacity. Greater range and penetration is nothing to scoff at either. Safe targeting us a good idea.

Ask your GM What happens to the drone's Autosofts, if a Sprite is controlling it. Can it use them?
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Pollution
post Nov 19 2009, 06:15 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 19 2009, 05:30 PM) *
Why would you install assault rifles in drones? The standard weapon mount can use LMGs as well. Also, unless you mod the weapon to accept ammo belts, which is impossible by RAW AFAIK, you are stuck with the normal ammunition capacity. Greater range and penetration is nothing to scoff at either. Safe targeting us a good idea.

Ask your GM What happens to the drone's Autosofts, if a Sprite is controlling it. Can it use them?


Agree on the gun part. Why use an AK when there's an Ingram White Knight? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As to the Autosoft question, as far as I can tell, the Sprite's Rating and skills provide the actual dice pool, so the autosofts are a waste of money for a Technomancer (unless he's actually using a pilot program, but what Technomancer would want to do that? Sprites are better and free at that...).

If I recall correctly, a Rating 6 Machine Sprite would roll 12 dice (basic) for all tests. If the drone is modded, then it would roll more, but it's just Rating x2 for tests with a Droned Machine Sprite (unless there's something in the book like Pilot = R+1 or something in which case it'd be R x2 +1 for the Piloting checks).

I've never seen a need for adding autosofts to a drone for a Technomancer. If an opponent Rigger/Hacker takes control of your drone, then you're giving him extra dice to hurt you with (unless I'm wrong). If you use Sprites, then he takes over the drone and is limited to what he personally has in his commlink. Upgrade the drone, yeah, but Techno's should never put cash into autosofts (again, unless I'm way mistaken).
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 19 2009, 06:24 PM
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No the Sprite's Dicepool is Rating. So the Rating 6 Sprit would have 6 in all actions. The Machine Sprite can have an Autosoft as an optional Power. Only on tests with this program does he get 2*Rating.

I'd rather spend some ¥ than risk drain and be limited in services. With enough money you can get a drone to a DP of 10 for all actions, unless I'm mistaken.
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Jaid
post Nov 20 2009, 12:50 AM
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1) why put an assault rifle into a drone instead of a machinegun? cost. you can afford to throw away a drone that cost you a couple grand if the run goes south. you can even afford to lose two or three if it's really important. it will still be painful financially, but for almost as much performance you lose a lot less. the ak-97 is a dirt cheap gun that you put into a dirt cheap drone and use when you can't afford to send something more expensive. this is especially true if you're looking at ~3k for a drone as compared to 6k or more... meaning you can have twice as many.

2) machine sprites are really not all that when it comes to drone piloting until around rating 9. ideally, rating 12. you can only get 1 autosoft per 3 rating points. it is not even the least bit improbable that for a given drone you will want clearsight, targeting (once or twice, depending on if you have a second weapon), defense, maneuver, and the stealth one (can't recall it's name offhand). additionally, it is worth remembering that you may very well want to have multiple types of drones, and multiples of each type. it is completely possible to start with 3 steel lynxes, a few LEBD-1s, and a couple of manservant-1 drones. that's at least 3 different autosofts needed for maneuver, not to mention possible different weapons (you may want one that has a taser, one that has an SMG or LMG, for example) and then let's not forget that simply operating all of those drones at once with sprites only would need at least 7 sprites. and let's not forget that you also need sprites for sustaining threading, support operation, and possibly other powers. granted, if it's a purely rigger-focused TM, you'll probably be fine with nothing but machine sprites. but if you're a hacking TM, you're going to need different types of sprites, with different abilities, for different situations. not to mention, even if you have a whole bunch of machine sprites... registering a rating 12 or even a rating 9 sprite is no small feat. it will be difficult.
for all those reasons, it is my opinion that having autosofts at hand and even upgrading certain drones is not inherently a bad idea for a technomancer. especially since you have limited sprites available, and you may very well have a lot of money available for this project.
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MikeKozar
post Nov 20 2009, 01:18 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 19 2009, 09:30 AM) *
Why would you install assault rifles in drones? The standard weapon mount can use LMGs as well. Also, unless you mod the weapon to accept ammo belts, which is impossible by RAW AFAIK, you are stuck with the normal ammunition capacity. Greater range and penetration is nothing to scoff at either. Safe targeting us a good idea.


Well, the main reason was that a LMG is 1,500Y more - I plain didn't have the cash to equip all my drones with them during my first build. However, if I were going to defend the build as not completely goofy, I would point out that the IWK has the same fire modes, AP and damage output as the AK-97. The AK-97 is also 4R vs 12F - not a dealbreaker, but it is kind of cool that they're so easy to get. The ammo problem could be solved by upgrading to an ammo drum, or just manually popping a new magazine in between skirmishes - the AK is definitely an entry-level weapon. That said, even a 500y weapon on a drone is lethal.

The Knight does win on recoil compensation (if you're applying recoil to mounted weapons per the optional rule, as I am) with 5 points, meaning that you'd have much better odds that your full burst is going to saw a dude in half instead of just 'put the fear in him'. As you pointed out, if you intend to burn through a lot of ammo, the stock beltfeed is going to be a real advantage, and the better range category raises your 'no penalty' reach from 50m to 75m.

One more reason to go LMG would be grenade launchers - if you were to bolt an underbarrel grenade launcher onto your LMG, you could use the same Heavy Weapons autosoft for both systems.





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MikeKozar
post Nov 20 2009, 01:27 AM
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Jaid reminded me about the LEBD-1. The LEBD-1 is a great drone as well, if you're looking for a more flexible base - the stock model includes a weapon mount and a mechanical arm, which is 5,500y in upgrades to the 2,000y stock Rotordrone - you get it for 4,500y. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That means you're not just getting a deal on those mods, but you don't lose modification slots to them either.
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Jaid
post Nov 20 2009, 04:54 AM
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QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Nov 19 2009, 08:27 PM) *
Jaid reminded me about the LEBD-1. The LEBD-1 is a great drone as well, if you're looking for a more flexible base - the stock model includes a weapon mount and a mechanical arm, which is 5,500y in upgrades to the 2,000y stock Rotordrone - you get it for 4,500y. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That means you're not just getting a deal on those mods, but you don't lose modification slots to them either.

and the shock cuffs, which imo could reasonably provide a built-in stun melee attack. i think it also has a bit more in a couple other areas (armor a little higher or something? too lazy to check =P )
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 20 2009, 07:51 AM
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@Targeting: Why would you need different Targeting Autosofts? IMHO the only drone weapons you would ever need is an LMG with the additional clip mod (for lethal/non-lethal ammo) and a grenade launcher (possibly as underbarrel weapon to the LMG). For that setup you only need Targeting (Heavy weapons). For the other softs it is true, you need one per drone type.

@Throwaway drones: If you go that route this is true. I prefer to build good drones to make sure they don't get blown up too often. Also left behind drones are additional evidence to capture you.

@RC: According to the Arsenal Errata the by the book optional rule applies to LMGs on small drones and HMGs on medium drones. Medium drones with LMgs should be fine, everything else is a house rule.
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MikeKozar
post Nov 20 2009, 08:46 AM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 20 2009, 12:51 AM) *
@Throwaway drones: If you go that route this is true. I prefer to build good drones to make sure they don't get blown up too often. Also left behind drones are additional evidence to capture you.

@RC: According to the Arsenal Errata the by the book optional rule applies to LMGs on small drones and HMGs on medium drones. Medium drones with LMgs should be fine, everything else is a house rule.


Regarding 'Expendable' drones, you have to accept that every drone is to some degree expendable - a 7k LEBD with Armor 9 and a cheap gun isn't really that much less survivable then a 20k LEBD with Armor 9 and lots of cool gear. If you know some tricks for making them more survivable, I'll be in the front row taking notes.

I looked up the recoil thing, and the Errata quote comes from this section:

QUOTE (Arsenal p. 105)
For example it is possible to install a weapon mount with
an LMG onto a small drone with a body rating of 2 (cat-sized) and
suffering no recoil effects from full auto fire, where a normal human
would have trouble holding the weapon let alone successfully hitting
anything.


Which means the Errata was just making the example more outrageous (I keep picturing a sneaker-sized Ferret with a Looney-Tunes style Vindicator Minigun popping out the top.) It's an optional rule anyway, so I don't see any reason to debate it, but the idea of Mass=RC appeals to me. I volunteered to abide by it with my PC. The stock RAW (or your alternative reading of the optional rule) would be that my Ares HVAR can fire a full-auto burst with a +11 DV with no penalty - that's a little overpowered, and I'd feel guilty about using it. It's all personal preference, at the end of the day.
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Johnny B. Good
post Nov 20 2009, 08:41 PM
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Lots of interesting ideas in this thread. While biowire would be something amazing in a pinch, our GM told me that the more I use skillsofts the less karma I'll get, since the skills I'm using aren't technically mine. So while that would be useful, I'm still kind of wary.

I like fight-by-proxy, but expendable is not something I'd do, since in a large group money can get kind of tight and I'm super paranoid about leaving traces of any kind. So I'm thinking that a heavily modded LEBD-1 with plenty of armor, an LMG, and some upgraded sensors looks like the best bet for me, but instead of autosofts I'll try and find a resonance well where I can register machine sprites with less fading.

I was also thinking about raising my resonance, but I'm worried about those diminishing returns. What is everybody's opinion on raising resonance above 7? I've submerged 3 times, and is raising my resonance too worth it? Or would influence, and/or better complex forms be a better bet?
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Dakka Dakka
post Nov 20 2009, 10:12 PM
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QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Nov 20 2009, 09:41 PM) *
Lots of interesting ideas in this thread. While biowire would be something amazing in a pinch, our GM told me that the more I use skillsofts the less karma I'll get, since the skills I'm using aren't technically mine. So while that would be useful, I'm still kind of wary.
I'd ask the GM if the Street Sam gets less Karma if he uses looted weapons or ammo since technically they aren't his either (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Then I'd point to the Karma section of the book. Only one category actually talks about skills specifically and makes no distinction between learned or slotted skills. So the most you could lose is 1 Karma point.
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Jaid
post Nov 20 2009, 11:10 PM
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resonance for a technomancer is actually a pretty good investment. not only does it improve your rolls for assorted resonance-based activities, it also improves your fading rolls, which is ultimately going to be the real limitation. i wouldn't necessarily place it as high priority (i would say submersion until you feel your submersion grade is high enough - don't forget to reduce costs with groups and ordeals - followed by the echoes you would like at 15 karma each (or, of course, if submersion is cheaper than 15 karma, keep doing that), followed by resonance, in terms of becoming better at technomancer stuff.

as far as branching out, grabbing at least some social skills strikes me as being a really, really good idea.

and i have to agree that getting less karma because you're using stuff that you paid for is just silly. would you get punished as a rigger if you actually use drones? does the hacker get punished for having botnets and malware and agents and IC to support him? does the magician get less karma when his spirits help? how about if someone uses combat drugs in desperate situations, do they lose the karma from that combat? it's a rule that arbitrarily punishes one behaviour while leaving all other related behaviours at full strength. i would argue that you're actually far more likely to improve by using a skillsoft than a magician would be likely to improve by having a spirit do something.
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Marwynn
post Nov 20 2009, 11:57 PM
Post #25


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How much armour can you stick on an LEBD-1 without it being overloaded?

I'd suggest an Assault Rifle, like an AK-98, so that you have two different weapons loaded on it. Modify the gun to accept a Drum or Belt feed, buy the Autosoft for Grenade Launchers (and an Airburst Link/Smartgun accessory) and you're set.

Gives you flexibility.


And booshwah on that less karma thing! The point is the action, not how well you did it. Does he award karma after each successful roll or something? Then I don't see how that'd even apply.

Biowires cost karma enough. Getting the skillsoft costs quite a bit of nuyen too. Then to make them permanent you still have to expend more karma. It's unfair and I suggest bringing that up with your GM.

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