What's the deal with monofilament swords?, What's the point? Options

[XON2000]

I'd been assuming for a while that monofilament swords were superior to regular swords, due to having the super-sharp monofilament edge (I thought it was this way in earlier editions). But I just looked up the stats and a monofilament sword has the same damage and AP as a katana. It's also cheaper, though its Availability is higher.

So, am I missing something? Why would anyone bother getting a monofilament sword, since it is harder to find, but doesn't offer any advantages over a katana?

[Kagetenshi]

If it's like they were in SR3, the real (marginal) advantage is that it's one-handed.

~J

[XON2000]

Well, that's something. Thanks!

[AngelisStorm]

Because some of us want a non-asian sword which will cut through a tank.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A KAtana may also be used one-handed...

Keep the Faith

[Ol' Scratch]

Lots of weapons are like that. Why get a Morrissey Alta when you can get a Colt Manhunter instead? The Manhunter has the same accessories, four more rounds, is over 500 nuyen cheaper, and almost twice as available. There's absolutely no reason to get one stat-wise, but people still do because they like the name or look of it.

It's part of the problem of not sticking to a solid abstract philosophy from start to finish in the rules. All Fireballs and Black Hammer programs are the same (and have customization options available), but every single damn weapon in the same category has to have a different set of stats. To be fair, part of the problem is on the player's side of things here. Way too many get a stick up their ass if some minor field that they know a little about isn't completely accurate to what they've read/experienced. Fireballs and Black Hammer programs don't have to worry about that so much. But oh my God if a pistol isn't accurate to its real world counterpart!

[wind_in_the_ston...]

One handed weapons used two-handed gain a +1 DV. Katanas are like regular swords, except for the extra-long hilt, and are made for two-handed use. They have the +1 DV built in. So if you you use a katana one-handed, remember to subtract 1 DV.

So comparing a monofilament sword to a regular sword, you can see they're 1 DV better.

Now you need to commission a monofilament katana.

[Glyph]

Personally, I would rule that katanas can be wielded with one hand without penalty. Otherwise, they would be worse than regular swords, either one-handed or two-handed. I think katanas and monofilament swords are both there to represent swords that are a bit better than the "normal" ones.

The monofilament sword is better in a purely fluff way - a monowire edge means that it doesn't need sharpening, and it will probably stand up to heavy wear better than a katana would. Plus, let's face it, katanas can be a bit of a cliche, so it's nice to have an alternative that is as effective.

[Jack Kain]

The problem with swords is despite being legal to carry they are kinda hard to hide.

In any event. In real life not all weapons are created equal. Shadowrun didn't try and balance out every weapon so each one is equally viable. My preference in pistol is for a Ruger Thunderbolt with the standard internal smartgun modification, a firing selection change to let it fire in S/A and a personalized grip. But I also enjoy the Ares Viper Silvergun as it has a built in sound suppression but is still a legal weapon.

[Ol' Scratch]

Personally, I would rule that katanas can be wielded with one hand without penalty. Otherwise, they would be worse than regular swords, either one-handed or two-handed. I think katanas and monofilament swords are both there to represent swords that are a bit better than the "normal" ones.

To be honest, unless a Katana is made from some mystical Ancient Chinese Secret method, there's no reason it should be a better weapon than the generic Sword. Anymore than a machete, rapier or longsword should be. They're also not worse than a Sword, just different. When wielding a Sword with two hands, you gain a point of DV but lose a point of AP compared to a Katana. And if you do wield a two-handed sword in one hand, it should be worse than a weapon designed to be wielded one-handed, though "worse" is a stretch since the same change occurs, only in reverse. They're different, but not terribly so. It is clearly inferior to a Monofilament Sword, though. But you can rationalize that away as superior technology.

That said, the description for both a Katana and Sword are every bit as clear as the Blades and Unarmed Combat skills are. A Katana is a two-handed sword and a Sword is a one-handed sword. You'll note a lack of any other two-handed swords in the core rulebook, too. That's because Katana is the generic stat for one.

[AKWeaponsSpecial...]

As a GM, I view the difference between katana and mf sword thus: Try to cut a tank with a katana, and I'll laugh at you; cut a tank with a mf sword, and I'll start rolling body.

[Knight Saber]

Didn't the original Street Samurai Catalog have a comment to the effect of "My shoelace has monofilament in it but you don't see me lopping heads off with it."? I took it as a marketing statement. "Here's the high-tech sword of the future! No better than a normal katana, but it's not a katana, and you don't like those Japanese corps buying up all your land and ideas anyway, do you?"

[Glyph]

The comment was saying that there's a difference between monofilament and monomolecular (and even the whips aren't that). But it's still a durable sword that you don't need to sharpen, hype or not.

[Ascalaphus]

It's Asia Syndrome: any Asian weapon or power will tend to be better than its American/European equivalent. This has little reasonable basis, it's just the way a lot of game designers and gamers think.

All that blather about how katanas are made through some mystical metal-folding method that produces a superior edge ignores the following:
1) This process was also practiced in Damascus and Toledo, and possibly invented in India (I should check reference though)
2) Only the most expensive katanas are really all that good; cheapass swords-for-poor-samurai aren't all that special.

The awe in which some people holds katanas is due to comparing Masterwork Katana to Regular Sword, to use terminology from a game system we will not name.

This being the future, what about the following:
1) Weapons forged with futuristic metalwork that is far stronger - or not even made of metal
2) Monofilament katana (why not stack awesomeness?)

[Chrysalis]

The process of making a katana is similar to that of the Anglo-Saxon sword. After finding bog iron it is then melted down into pig iron rods. The metal rods are folded and beaten (cold forged) so that the impurities in the bog iron are pushed out and the iron and carbon would fuse to make steel.

However this is a long process with a questionable possibility of making a good sword. This why we have phrases like "battle tested" and "battle forged", indicating that usually the sword might shatter, break in half or bend in the middle when used in the the very important age old practice of killing people.

It was only much later on with the advent of extensive commerce that better iron became available and also metal forging techniques.

[Stahlseele]

I think i remember some tv documentation actually testing both an old style katana and an old style damascus sword by putting parts of them into a bath of acid. Actually, the Damascus Sword was still partly there after some time, whereas the Katana-Part had completely dissolved. But i am not sure. Furthermore, they mentioned that the Damascus Swords cannot be made anymore, as the metal used way back when is nowhere to be found anymore as of today.
And why the hell did modern technology not make things like 100.000 folds and thus impossibly awesome weapons a reality as of yet?
Titan/Aluminium-Alloy with ceramics for light-weight and durable material and then using the real dikote stuff to make it hard as a diamond?

[MikeKozar]

The '100,000 folds' method should really be more common in a society with robot labor.

I seem to remember monowire (and Dikote...anybody remember what the rules for Dikote were?) giving some fairly obscene advantages in 2nd Edition. I imagine it was removed due to the Lightsaber effect, where no armor could really stop it. It's probably only in the rules as a nod to the old editions, and a way to make sure the nerf sticks - if they just didn't list it, players would insist it still follows the old rules.

As a GM, I'd at least try to give it more flavor, like AKWeaponsSpecialist suggested; I once allowed a player to slice a chainlink fence open in one swing without even rolling. Why? Because it was awesome, it was a perfectly in-character way around a minor obstacle, the player got to be awesome, and honestly he could have auto-successed if I required the roll anyway. But he didn't have to roll, because his monofilament sword went *right through the chainlink*! (o.o)

In game terms though, strictly rule wise? It's a legacy item that no longer grants a real advantage.

[Stahlseele]

Dikote ain't in there anymore as of SR4.
In SR3, it gave +1 Power and +1 Damage on bladed Weapons.
+1 Power on all other close combat weapons.
+1 Impact/Ballistic if applied to Armor.
Lowered Barrier rating to 1x instead of the 2x you usually had when attacking barriers in close combat.

Yes, it was hillariously overpowered. Yes it was awesome.

[Ascalaphus]

IRL, you don't have all that many high-tech swords because there isn't a very big market for it. I mean, who uses swords when you have guns?

But in SR, of course industrial super-swords aren't just cool, they make sense as power foci (except for the scary Object Resistance.)

Hmm. I should look into making a fold-able memory plastic monofilament blade. Something that you can roll up into your sleeve and carry through a metal detector.

There's the "quiet" argument for swords, but I'd say that the blood spill tends to offset that advantage.
"No ammo consumption" is just being cheap on the wrong thing - range and speed are worth something.

No, I really can't come up with anything other than power foci to convince me swords are competitive. But they're still cool, and have built-in intimidation factor.

[Godwyn]

IRL, you don't have all that many high-tech swords because there isn't a very big market for it. I mean, who uses swords when you have guns?

And that is why the 100,000 folds does not happen. Any civilization with enough technology to do it, has no need to do it.

[Xahn Borealis]

What's the point?

<groans>

[blakmetalmedik]

The point is the end opposite of the pommel....aka. the part you stab people with (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry couldn't resist.

[Xahn Borealis]

The point is the end opposite of the pommel....aka. the part you stab people with (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry couldn't resist.

If this was JackPoint and there was any justice in the world, you would SO much rep for that.

[Kagetenshi]

Oh god, SR4 includes Whuffie?

~J

[Sengir]

And why the hell did modern technology not make things like 100.000 folds and thus impossibly awesome weapons a reality as of yet?

Because the repeated folding is not needed for a good blade, it was born out of the necessity to make usable steel from inconvenient source materials.

The steel Japanese smiths used is made out of these lumps, which contain a whole lot of impurities you don't want while the stuff you do want is distributed very unevenly. The repeated folding and welding simply served to remove these impurities and evenly distribute carbon and other benefitial elements.
With today's metallurgy, steel with the exact percentages of alloy elements you want is available by the meter, better and more consistent than the best steelmakers of old could ever have produced.