Using two weapons, Clarification of the rules Options

[Udoshi]

There's actually a very clever way to partially circumvent the 'no smartlinks while dualwielding' rule. Ironically, it involves making your smartlinks smarter.

If you look at the firearm section, in the weapon accessories section, you'll note that the Smartgun(1) system includes a Camera(2). How many enhancements isn't up spelled out, but its clearly a security device, so that's a rough extimate of four - and the external version cost matches up exactly with a rating 4 camera.
Thermo(3), vision mag(4), low-light(5) and flare comp(6) all fit in that for a fairly affordable price - though only 3/4 fit in availability 12.
Get a cracked rating 3 tacsoft, to load on you and your smartguns, and viola! Bonus dice.
Not too shabby for around a grand of extra dosh.

[crizh]

Oooh, Tacsoft!!

I'm having a blast with this thread.

I'm twiddling with a Sam in Excel as we speak.

Twin Lower Cyberarms with Cyberarm Gyromounts, Str 10 with Muscle Augmentation, Agl 9 with P4MO and Muscle Toner. Reflex Recorder giving Automatics 7 and a Specialization in Dual-Wielding.

Modded Praetors with Extended Clips, Heavy Barrel and High Velocity and Gas Vent 3 as an accessory.

I think that's 11 points of RC each which is enough for 2 long bursts from each weapon fully compensated.

A rating 3 TacNet and Tracer rounds is another 5 Dice to each attack.

I think that's four long bursts with 15 Dice per Action Phase. You can go 6 IP's before having to reload.

[Karoline]

that has more to do with recoil management and the fact they always want a hand free for other duties, if there was a way to make a gun that was 100% recoiless even if you shot like a maniac and somehow left at least one hand free for use then yes dual wielding would be more frequently used by SWAT, FBI etc in sitation where a handgun is best suited.

Actually it has alot more to do with the fact that IRL having two hands on a weapon helps steady it, making the aim more accurate, and that even when using a laser sight, you still do most of the aiming with the gun like normal, the laser is just a bit of a "Yep, my sight isn't messed up." and is especially useful in poor visibility conditions where it would be hard to make out your target through the smoke, but the light on them makes them show up alot better.

It also has to do with the fact that law enforcement generally don't fire weapons all that much. The idea is more to make the other guy realize they're out manned and aren't going to win then pumping them full of lead. And even when they do fire, they are trained to fire a small number of rounds, they aren't there to go all rambo on people. Besides, why go through the trouble of having to deal with two pistols when an automatic of some kind is so much more natural?

Oh, and don't forget the 'public image' aspect of things. If SAWT starts running around duel wielding pistols, PR is going to go down the drain quick as people get this image of them being 'gunslingers' and 'hot off the handle' types as opposed to professionals who use deadly force as a last resort.

[Karoline]

Tracer rounds is another 5 Dice to each attack.

I can't imagine tracer rounds helping if for some reason laser sights can't help you, as they run on a fairly similar theory.

Come to think of it I can't imagine tracer rounds helping all that much if you have a laser sight/smartgun already, since they all provide the same benefit of saying "This is where your gun is pointing"

[crizh]

Not an unreasonable POV but I'm working from a strictly RAW perspective.

Tracers are odd. You only get the benefit beyond Short range so they are actually more effective in an SMG than in an AR.

[Doc Byte]

Why would you halve a die? The rules only speak of splitting. There is not rule that the pool has to be split evenly. 1 and Pool-1 should be fine as well.

Half smartlink bonus per hand (2D/2=1) would work fine for dual weapons but not with laser sights (1D/2=0,5).

[Karoline]

Not an unreasonable POV but I'm working from a strictly RAW perspective.

Tracers are odd. You only get the benefit beyond Short range so they are actually more effective in an SMG than in an AR.

Yeah, I know you are, I just thought it was a kind of interesting thing that laser sight and smartgun don't stack, but for some reason either one stacks just fine with tracers which are essentially short lived laser sights (And yet are more effective than laser sights in most cases).

I mean I guess there is some benefit to knowing where you're bullets are -actually- going as opposed to where they -theoretically should- go, but it doesn't seem as though it should be that significant unless your gun is truly messed up, in which case the laser sight might be a hindrance.

[Karoline]

Half smartlink bonus per hand (2D/2=1) would work fine for dual weapons but not with laser sights (1D/2=0,5).

You don't halve either one. The only thing you halve when splitting your DP is (Skill + Attribute) and nothing else. Everything else (Specialty, smartlink if it theoretically worked) gets added on as a bonus to both new DPs so long as they are applicable to both weapons. It is also true that it doesn't say that you 'halve' the DP, just that you split it, so you can split it any way you want, to represent focusing more on one gun than the other.

This is especially important to take into account when considering bonuses/penalties. A wound modifier for instance is twice as bad for you when duel wielding (Because it applies to both DPs) as are any sort of vision impairments.

So lets say you have a skill of 3, and an Agi of 3, and 3 boxes of damage.

This means that you split your (3 + 3 = 6) dice however you want into two DPs, each of which is used for a separate gun. This could be a 3/3 split or a 2/4 split or a 1/5 split.

You then take each DP and apply all bonuses/penalties to each one separately. So if you did a 2/4 split in the above example, each one would then have the -1 wound penalty applied to it, and you would end up rolling 1 die for one gun, and 3 dice for the other gun. This is the major danger of duel wielding. Any unfavorable conditions are twice as bad for you.

[Doc Byte]

I was only suggesting a way one could handle two guns with smartlink. But it wouldn't work with lasersights.

[Udoshi]

A rating 3 TacNet and Tracer rounds is another 5 Dice to each attack.

Not -precisely-. Its one bonus dice - the amount of people in the network limit the bonus(#-2. thats why you need 3 people minimum). With just you and your two smartguns, its just one dice. HOWEVER. Give the crack-net to your teammates, or a pair of spotter drones and they'll bring it up to the full 3(if they meet the sensor criteria).

If you're burning restricted gear on a tacnet anyway, get a rating 4, and slap on a Voice Activation/Response mod to your guns. That nets you a microphone, which should let the guns meet the sensor channel requirement for it, with an enhancement or two. Since it only needs a kit, its also a prime candidate for Overmodding if your guns are full up already.

[Saint Sithney]

And even when they do fire, they are trained to fire a small number of rounds, they aren't there to go all rambo on people.

Unless those people happen to be black, male and armed with a wallet. Then they fire 46 rounds.

[Ol' Scratch]

My personal reasoning for the default rule is that it's pretty damn confusing to try and keep track of two separate targeting reticules. Be they HUD displays or little red dots in the distance. Even if you get them color coded, it's going to take a lot of practice to get used to remembering which is which, and adjusting an individual weapon when you're not sure which one needs adjusting just makes it all the more difficult. Whatever benefit it provides it dismissed by the time and effort it takes to concentrate on your coordination to get both firearms lined up properly. Even worse, by the time you adjust one, the other might be out of alignment since you were too focused on getting the other one just right.

This is as opposed to guestimating where both weapons are pointed under normal circumstances. You could do the same with the two dots/reticules, but then you're not really relying on them anyway, so why should they give a bonus?

Tracer rounds, on the other hand, are more than just dots/crosshairs. They create an entire line of light from the firearm to the target which is a heck of a lot easier to differentiate since they're basically extensions of your arms. That's just going to naturally be easier to process for most people.

If I were going to house rule it, though, I'd probably use Doc Byte's method. Laser sights aren't going to do shit for you in my opinion; they may help if you have plenty of time to aim and focus, but in the heat of a typical firefight in Shadowrun you don't have the time or energy to invest in that. Smartlinks will be a little easier, especially if you have them color coded and have practiced extensively at keeping track of both of them. And even then a +1 bonus to each one is much more fair and adherent to the nature of the rules for splitting the dice to begin with. I'd also probably require an additional positive quality for that, too, to account for the practice you've put in for it.

[Udoshi]

My personal reasoning for the default rule is that it's pretty damn confusing to try and keep track of two separate targeting reticules. Be they HUD displays or little red dots in the distance. Even if you get them color coded, it's going to take a lot of practice to get used to remembering which is which, and adjusting an individual weapon when you're not sure which one needs adjusting just makes it all the more difficult. Whatever benefit it provides it dismissed by the time and effort it takes to concentrate on your coordination to get both firearms lined up properly. Even worse, by the time you adjust one, the other might be out of alignment since you were too focused on getting the other one just right.

If you're trying to logic up game mechanics, it doesn't work that well. That arguement kind of falls through the floor if you're talking about a Skillwired gun user - there's no reason it wouldn't be able to pick apart two crosshairs.

[Ol' Scratch]

Why would it be any better than a skilled person? Skillwires basically just "teach" you the skill temporarily. They're not some kind of super robot thing that function on their own, and even then they're only kinda close to natural skill if you get the Skillwire Booster or whatever it's called.

I also wasn't trying to "logic up game mechanics." I was rationalizing why the rule is okay to me. If I were "logicing it up," I'd be using that rationalization to explain a house rule contrary to the game mechanics, sort of like I did in my last paragraph. And even then, I was just agreeing with Doc Byte's suggestion.

[Ol' Scratch]

To test the theory out, I just hunted down two of my laser pointers. I was sitting comfortably in a chair and "quick drawed" one of them and aimed at a specific point on the wall about ten feet away. Didn't take long at all to get it there; less than a second, I'd wager. Next, I stood up, jostled around a bit, and sat in another chair just to reset everything. I did the same thing this time, only drawing a pointer from both sides of my hips. It took me far longer to get both of them aimed at the same point. A good 4-5 seconds (which, incidently, is almost two Combat Turns). And that was at a range of about 10 feet. 50 or more and it'd be crazy.

So yeah, I'm sticking with my rationalizing and the standard rule. I'm sure I could speed it up a little if I practiced enough and if I continued to have a nice, peaceful environment to aim them. In the heat of a fight and at any range greater than that, though, and it'd be totally worthless compared to just guestimated shots.

[Karoline]

To test the theory out, I just hunted down two of my laser pointers. I was sitting comfortably in a chair and "quick drawed" one of them and aimed at a specific point on the wall about ten feet away. Didn't take long at all to get it there; less than a second, I'd wager. Next, I stood up, jostled around a bit, and sat in another chair just to reset everything. I did the same thing this time, only drawing a pointer from both sides of my hips. It took me far longer to get both of them aimed at the same point. A good 4-5 seconds (which, incidently, is almost two Combat Turns). And that was at a range of about 10 feet. 50 or more and it'd be crazy.

So yeah, I'm sticking with my rationalizing and the standard rule. I'm sure I could speed it up a little if I practiced enough and if I continued to have a nice, peaceful environment to aim them. In the heat of a fight and at any range greater than that, though, and it'd be totally worthless compared to just guestimated shots.

But your forgetting that, among other things, you are (I'm guessing) not ambidextrous, and thus have a -2 penalty with your off hand, which most duel weapon wielders wouldn't have. You also have to consider that you tried this once (Or maybe a handful of times). I'd imagine that with the level of practice required to reach a skill of 4+ which most SR weapon users have, you'd have hours upon days upon weeks upon months of training.

Your rational is kinda like saying "I tossed a few balls in the air and couldn't juggle, thus juggling must be impossible." There is also a varying level of ability to split focus in people. Once again someone who is inclined to use duel weapons is likely someone who is good at splitting their focus.

Check out this game for an example. Some people will have immense difficulty with it by the second or third task. Personally I'm very good at splitting my focus and can play it for ages. I'd imagine that if I had two laser pointers (I wish) I'd be more apt after a few attempts of 'duel drawing' the pointers than others would.

Oh, and also, you don't have much of a base line. Try doing it a few times with your eyes closed. Try and aim just one (to simulate a regular gun) and see about how long it takes you to get on target, and how far off you are, then compare that to how long it takes/how accurate you are with a single pointer and your eyes open (Thus simulating a single weapon with a laser pointer). Then you do the same thing with both at the same time.

Once you have all four numbers (Hopefully with about five trials each, rotating which one you do constantly so as not to have a buildup of skill affect whichever test you do last the most) we can preform some mathamancy and figure out if the lasers help you at all when duel wielding.

Edit: I suppose to -really- test the theory we need someone to go down to a gun range with two guns with laser sights on them and compare their accuracy with and without the sights. But barring that, laser pointers will have to do.

[Falconer]

Tacsoft on a smartgun is dicey. (though they list stats for a smartgun under sample peripheral nodes in unwired).

The smartgun includes two items... basic guncam (no special vision mods), and a rangefinder. Adding more requires using up gun modification capacity to upgrade it's sensors. (Improved Rangefinder, and improved camera mods from arsenal immediately come to mind).

I'd say no to arbitrarily upgrading the camera w/o using modification capacity as it makes those arsenal modifications pointless.

Also, if you look at the example for tacnets in unwired, it specifically lists "smartlink' as a single sensor channel. So you're skirting the rules, and potentially on thin ice.

[Karoline]

Tacsoft on a smartgun is dicey. (though they list stats for a smartgun under sample peripheral nodes in unwired).

The smartgun includes two items... basic guncam (no special vision mods), and a rangefinder. Adding more requires using up gun modification capacity to upgrade it's sensors. (Improved Rangefinder, and improved camera mods from arsenal immediately come to mind).

I'd say no to arbitrarily upgrading the camera w/o using modification capacity as it makes those arsenal modifications pointless.

Also, if you look at the example for tacnets in unwired, it specifically lists "smartlink' as a single sensor channel. So you're skirting the rules, and potentially on thin ice.

There is also something to be said for the fact that you would be getting three sets of all but perfectly identical data, because the viewpoint for all of those sensors is within a foot or two of each other for both guns and yourself.

[Ol' Scratch]

Your rational is kinda like saying "I tossed a few balls in the air and couldn't juggle, thus juggling must be impossible." There is also a varying level of ability to split focus in people. Once again someone who is inclined to use duel weapons is likely someone who is good at splitting their focus.

That's why I did it with just one pointer, too. I'm equally "unskilled" with both, yet it was significantly easier (and that's the key phrase) aiming one rather than two. And while not ambidextrous like they portray in the game, I'm nearly as competent with my left hand as I am my right. At least as far as things like writing or using tools go. One of the perks of having had the right side of my body paralyzed for a few months. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Actually shooting a gun or juggling balls is a whole other story, and that's related to the actual skill at using them. This was purely aiming which takes no special skill as far as I'm aware, either in real life or in Shadowrun. At least not at a target ten feet away. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Karoline]

Actually shooting a gun or juggling balls is a whole other story, and that's related to the actual skill at using them. This was purely aiming which takes no special skill as far as I'm aware, either in real life or in Shadowrun. At least not at a target ten feet away. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I'd imagine that a large part of being able to shoot a gun properly is being able to aim. I mean there is only so much "Squeeze the trigger, don't pull it." you can manage to incorporate into your skill. I figure 95+% of it is being able to aim the weapon, steady the weapon, and know how to compensate for things like leading a target and so on.

I'm not debating that it took you longer to aim the lasers with two hands than one, that should be obvious, and is represented in the rules (Splitting the dice pool), but the problem is you don't have a baseline of how long it takes you to 'aim' two 'guns' without lasers compared to 'aiming' two 'guns' with lasers. That's why I suggested trying it a few times with your eyes closed. Instead of having your eyes closed, you could take your aim, then hold it and turn on the lasers and see how close you were, but it is hard to not move the lasers as you are turning them on. If you look directly at the place you are 'shooting' though, and then close your eyes, it should have the same effect of aiming without the lasers, but leaving the lasers on to see how accurate you are.

To reiterate: the problem with your experiment is that it shows aiming two weapons is slower than aiming one weapon, not that aiming two weapons with laser sights is no easier than aiming two weapons without laser sights.

[Ol' Scratch]

I could repeat the experiment by throwing first one and then two tennis balls at a similar target in similar situations. Somehow I doubt it would take me 4-5 times longer to do so and yet still get them both in about the same spot with around the same level of accuracy as a single ball.

[Karoline]

I could repeat the experiment by throwing first one and then two tennis balls at a similar target in similar situations. Somehow I doubt it would take me 4-5 times longer to do so and yet still get them both in about the same spot with around the same level of accuracy as a single ball.

I think you might be surprised at the results actually. The problem is that when you don't have the laser sight, you won't be spending any time at all aiming, you'll just point and hope you'll be about right. Same with the balls, it won't take you any longer to throw them because you won't be spending any longer aiming with two than one, but you will likely be less accurate.

I don't know, it really is something that is kinda hard to do without real guns (Or maybe paint guns).

And as I said, alot of this relies on your personal ability to split your focus. Some people will naturally be far better at it than others, and of course training can change the results drastically.

[Ol' Scratch]

I think you might be surprised at the results actually. The problem is that when you don't have the laser sight, you won't be spending any time at all aiming, you'll just point and hope you'll be about right. Same with the balls, it won't take you any longer to throw them because you won't be spending any longer aiming with two than one, but you will likely be less accurate.

No more than I'd be just randomly shooting and hoping for the best. The point is in neither situation do you have an aid for aiming other than your best guess. I wouldn't just pick up two balls and hurl them blindly in a general direction anymore than I'd do the same with two guns, which is what you seem to be implying here. I'd take a moment, get my bearings, and let loose with a genuine desire to hit my target as best I could. Just like I would with one ball or one gun.

It would take me a moment longer to do it with two but, again, I really doubt it would take nearly as long as it would if I were trying to get two tiny little laser dots lined up on there, too. I think the point I'm trying to make that you're not quite grasping is that the added difficulty has more to do with keeping the dots straight and manipulating each weapon appropriately more than it does of actually using the two weapons. It's a whole added level of difficulty on top of just aiming normally with whatever method you prefer, and far more difficult by itself than aiming a single laser dot.

I think another problem is that you're trying to add in an Aimed Shot (or whatever the term is; my mind is futzy at the moment) modifier to the situation.

[Karoline]

It would take me a moment longer to do it with two but, again, I really doubt it would take nearly as long as it would if I were trying to get two tiny little laser dots lined up on there, too. I think the point I'm trying to make that you're not quite grasping is that the added difficulty has more to do with keeping the dots straight and manipulating each weapon appropriately more than it does of actually using the two weapons. It's a whole added level of difficulty on top of just aiming normally with whatever method you prefer, and far more difficult by itself than aiming a single laser dot.

Well, I suppose we just have to reach a difference of opinion here. Personally I don't believe I would have any particular trouble lining up two laser sights (especially if there were different colors) because I am exceedingly good a multi-tasking. I can for instance juggle and walk a slack line at the same time. I can read a book and watch a movie at the same time. I can even write with both hands at the same time, though that is admittedly difficult. Like I said, do that multitask game I linked a few posts back, see how good you do. I'd imagine that your score in that would be directly related to your ability to use two laser sights at once.

Oh, and I am a master of patting my head and rubbing my stomach at the same time (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

To be fair, the rule applies whether you have Ambidexterity or not. That's completely separate ruleset from using two weapons at once.