IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Getting Away With It, I think you'll understand....
BookWyrm
post Nov 20 2009, 04:32 AM
Post #1


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,379
Joined: 16-April 02
From: the LI shadows
Member No.: 2,607



Now, I've been playing & reading SR since it's first inception, back in 1989. It caught my eye when, while I was perrusing a comic/gaming shop's magazine rack (and pretty much seeking an altermative to AD$D), I picked up a flyer for a new game called Shaodwrun. I had re-read Neuromancer by William Gibson just reently (at that time) and SR caught my attention. As the old addage goes, it's been interesting times. And I look forward to even more.

Now, for some reason, this thought just occured to me; How do 'runners "get away with it"? Since industrial/corporate espionage is a prosecutable (and I no doubt with some corporate legal systems, an executable) offense, what's the appeal of making attempts to break the law? Even if the runners are experienced, skilled and more than aware of the dangers therein, what keeps them from simply walking away? And I'm not talking about just the money. I know there's reputation involved.
Even so, I recall one SR2 game I was a part of, and a fellow gamer was looking over my list of contacts, and queried me at my having a Lawyer in my list. I somply replied that, even if I were to get caught and charged, I'd rather have a skilled shyster at my side than some legal-aide newbie fresh from the bar exam and low-man on the roster (and yes, I've seen enough episodes of Law & Order).

Factor in all the above, plus whatever input you care to post here. This isn't just about burnging Edge points or sacrificing Karma. It's also about that elusive "X-factor" that one can't easilly quantify.

Forgive my rather strange brain-fart, but just how do 'runners "get away with it"? Equal parts of skill, luck, timing, ect.?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Red-ROM
post Nov 20 2009, 05:01 AM
Post #2


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,756
Joined: 17-January 09
From: Va Beach , CAS
Member No.: 16,787



the amount of red tape in SR has got to be insane. you have so many jurisdictions, and so many people without SIN's. not to mention the records that have been lost in general in the last 20 years. add to that the switch from lonestar to knight errant and its more confusing. I bet half the people in prison have been completely forgotten. If they manage to hop the fence, nobody would miss them. lets face it, if you're not shot on sight, nobody knows who you are or what to do with you. even giving someone a criminal SIN is a process. Some runners are buried under the prison, others go to the bathroom and come back to find their police escort forgot them.

just a thought
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jericho Alar
post Nov 20 2009, 06:43 AM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 304
Joined: 29-October 09
From: Pittsburgh
Member No.: 17,812



Part of it is simply the PR aspects of Black Tech/Research/Ops.

- if you steal a super secret biological warfare agent from a corp and get off their property and lose their pursuit; they can't exactly go public about what you just stole (or that it was even stolen.)

- if you run onto another AAA's property they have a hard time tailing you without creating a modern international incident.

- Spies get away with this sort of stuff every day in real life. (of course, professional spies generally have a little more training than the average runner; but they routinely employ civilians for limited time periods for tasks that can't be done by the local operators.)

- I'm sure runners get sold up the river all the time; you just generally don't hear about it because they're, well.. dead.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Nov 20 2009, 07:11 AM
Post #4


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



Never underestimate the awesome power of plot.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Medicineman
post Nov 20 2009, 07:39 AM
Post #5


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,748
Joined: 25-January 05
From: Good ol' Germany
Member No.: 7,015



Forgive my rather strange brain-fart, but just how do 'runners "get away with it"? Equal parts of skill, luck, timing, ect.?
Today they'll steal from Megacon A, Tomorrow they'll be stealing FOR the same con. So, If Runner don't get caught Redhanded and The Con can't apprehend them immediately, they're "Scottfree" because the Con knows they'll be needing them next Time.
Its also a question of Resources and bad Publicity. If it costs to much to apprehend the Runnes or if the Megacon risks a Publicity-leak they will likely not continue to catch the Runners.

with a free Dance
Medicineman
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fuchs
post Nov 20 2009, 12:39 PM
Post #6


Dragon
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,328
Joined: 28-November 05
From: Zuerich
Member No.: 8,014



This:

QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 20 2009, 08:11 AM) *
Never underestimate the awesome power of plot.


Rationalized by this:

QUOTE (Medicineman @ Nov 20 2009, 08:39 AM) *
Today they'll steal from Megacon A, Tomorrow they'll be stealing FOR the same con. So, If Runner don't get caught Redhanded and The Con can't apprehend them immediately, they're "Scottfree" because the Con knows they'll be needing them next Time.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Blade
post Nov 20 2009, 01:35 PM
Post #7


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,009
Joined: 25-September 06
From: Paris, France
Member No.: 9,466



The answer is the reason why the runners work for corps rather than stealing things on their own. Once the job is over and the prototype has been handed to Mr Johnson, there is no point for the corp to catch the runners. The damage is done (corp B has the prototype) and there's nothing the corp can do about it (except send its own runners to get it back).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nightfalke
post Nov 20 2009, 02:47 PM
Post #8


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 159
Joined: 30-October 09
From: Roseville, MN
Member No.: 17,823



And in a world so full of corporate espionage, it would ruin you if you started cracking down on runners. Pretty soon word would get out that if you work for corp X you get pinched, so noone would ever work for them, and they would lose billions of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) because they couldn't keep up with corp Y.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nezumi
post Nov 20 2009, 03:32 PM
Post #9


Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,546
Joined: 24-October 03
From: DeeCee, U.S.
Member No.: 5,760



Not ure what your question is. If it's 'why aren't all Shadowrunners caught and prosecuted' - it's a few reasons. For one, the legal system is in shambles. For two, 90% of the illegal stuff going on out there is perpetrated by the megacorps, against each other or the common people. The megacorps don't WANT the judicial system to work properly. Shadowrunners are just a drop in the bucket. For three, shadowrunners are generally unafiliated. Going after them is like going after guns thinking it'll reduce violent crime. Murderers and thieves are still going to kill people, they'll just find a different tool. Fourth, it's a question of costs - good runners are hard to capture (and since there's not much gain for capturing them - why bother?)

The list goes on and on. Just accept it's a dark, broken world and people who have the skills and gumption can slip in and out as they wish.

If you're asking 'why do shadowrunners run', well, depends on the character. Shadowrun is the only game I know where you can 'win' straight out of chargen. However, for whatever reason, your character is unusual and is willing to take the high risks to play the game. Maybe he's in it for greed, maybe he's an adrenaline junky, maybe he's an idealist... Ultimately though, that's for you to figure out.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
CanadianWolverin...
post Nov 20 2009, 04:12 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 574
Joined: 22-June 09
From: Ucluelet - Tofino - Nanaimo Salish-Sahide Council
Member No.: 17,309



QUOTE (BookWyrm @ Nov 19 2009, 10:32 PM) *
Forgive my rather strange brain-fart, but just how do 'runners "get away with it"? Equal parts of skill, luck, timing, ect.?


I may be new to SR, but I think runners get away with it only because the SR's various societies need them even if they are loath to admit it by keeping them in the slush fund section of the accountant's books.

But after that? Like how does a shadowrunner grow old and die peacefully in their bed an old geezer? The only true out I can think of would be convincingly faking one's own death when they decide their successful time in the shadows is done but even that seems unlikely with magic/astral floating about unless your character has the necessary magic to change their astral too. You gotta take that permanent heat (reputation/notoriety) off somehow to enjoy retirement.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Prime Mover
post Nov 20 2009, 04:19 PM
Post #11


Shooting Target
****

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,755
Joined: 5-September 06
From: UCAS
Member No.: 9,313



I always considered t his. Shadowrunners are a necessity to to doing business in the 6th world this gives the corps an incentive to see to it they "get away with it". At least to a certain extent. If the runners are too publicly obvious or create too much collateral damage then hell make an example of them and show the common man how talented there corporate police forces are.

As for the Lawyer contact this must have something to do with early editions. In 1st and 2nd editions all of our prime runners had lawyers and for some reason hair dressers for contacts. With Taxi Cab drivers and Bartenders a close 3rd and 4th.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Warlordtheft
post Nov 20 2009, 04:57 PM
Post #12


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,328
Joined: 2-April 07
From: The Center of the Universe
Member No.: 11,360



QUOTE (nezumi @ Nov 20 2009, 10:32 AM) *
If you're asking 'why do shadowrunners run', well, depends on the character. Shadowrun is the only game I know where you can 'win' straight out of chargen. However, for whatever reason, your character is unusual and is willing to take the high risks to play the game. Maybe he's in it for greed, maybe he's an adrenaline junky, maybe he's an idealist... Ultimately though, that's for you to figure out.


It is called character generation for a reason....#1 GM question to new player---why does he/she run the shadows?

Der Nacht---Gail (his friendly free spirit) tells him to. Besides would a magician with Loki as a mentor spirit put up with corp BS?

CD---Hey he needs some new material for his next thrash metal alblum: Bringing down da System

Raid---Realized he could no longer stay loyal to a corp b/c of his other outside persuits.

Pick some of the PC's you run, and ask youself that question. You probably have an answer that directly relates to their background.



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mercer
post Nov 20 2009, 06:59 PM
Post #13


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,326
Joined: 15-April 02
Member No.: 2,600



"What I do may not be reputable... but I am. In this town I'm the leper with the most fingers."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
djinni
post Nov 20 2009, 07:58 PM
Post #14


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 777
Joined: 22-November 06
Member No.: 9,934



QUOTE (Blade @ Nov 20 2009, 09:35 AM) *
The answer is the reason why the runners work for corps rather than stealing things on their own. Once the job is over and the prototype has been handed to Mr Johnson, there is no point for the corp to catch the runners. The damage is done (corp B has the prototype) and there's nothing the corp can do about it (except send its own runners to get it back).

people for the most part impart human level emotional responses to the iconic image of "the corp" as in the corp would get revenge etc... they try to rationalize it by noting the police force proffering giant manhunts for murderers, but fail to realize these things are modern day and forced through political image. an under the table operation that gets stolen by another under the table operation gets washed.
it all comes down to money. the board or the johnson in charge knows there is no point in getting the runners because they are just pawns in the larger scheme, and don't know anything, or don't care its just a paycheck the MOST the johnson could do it hire them to get it back. by exposing more of his top secret project, and issuing out more money.
"going after" the scum of society costs more money than it nets in the long run and the corp bottom line is prepared to accept losses. this is one of the reasons why not killing security guards is preferred (aside from the concept of the game is that the PC's are the "good" guys not the "less bad" guys) it decreases the input output deficit.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Corgak
post Nov 20 2009, 08:16 PM
Post #15


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 28
Joined: 25-October 09
From: The Lonestar State! ;)
Member No.: 17,792



QUOTE (djinni @ Nov 20 2009, 01:58 PM) *
(aside from the concept of the game is that the PC's are the "good" guys not the "less bad" guys)


I like playing anti-heroes. Bad guys doing bad things for real reasons: greed, gluttony, or revenge. Any means necessary to accomplish the job. Now, if I don't have to kill someone to accomplish the mission and that makes things easier in the long run, then guards, lab techs, etc. get non lethal treatment. But if I need info, and I got two prisoners that probably know the same info... expect one of them to get curb-stomped if they aren't talking. I'm talking Mel Gibson in Payback.

To me that is fun roleplaying there, I find the idea of "good" criminals a little far fetched.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BookWyrm
post Nov 20 2009, 08:18 PM
Post #16


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,379
Joined: 16-April 02
From: the LI shadows
Member No.: 2,607



Thanks, folks. These answers clear up a lot, and I can always pull up this thread and refresh my mems if I need to.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
djinni
post Nov 20 2009, 08:21 PM
Post #17


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 777
Joined: 22-November 06
Member No.: 9,934



QUOTE (Corgak @ Nov 20 2009, 04:16 PM) *
I like playing anti-heroes. Bad guys doing bad things for real reasons: greed, gluttony, or revenge. Any means necessary to accomplish the job. Now, if I don't have to kill someone to accomplish the mission and that makes things easier in the long run, then guards, lab techs, etc. get non lethal treatment. But if I need info, and I got two prisoners that probably know the same info... expect one of them to get curb-stomped if they aren't talking. I'm talking Mel Gibson in Payback.

To me that is fun roleplaying there, I find the idea of "good" criminals a little far fetched.

and everyone is free to game with whatever is most enjoyable.
as each game is different the game has to be written from a specific standpoint and it is that the PC's are good guys, you receive "karma" not experience, for one example.
please lets not make this a thread about lethal vs. nonlethal force as there is another thread on that.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Nov 20 2009, 09:41 PM
Post #18


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



QUOTE (djinni @ Nov 20 2009, 12:58 PM) *
it all comes down to money. the board or the johnson in charge knows there is no point in getting the runners because they are just pawns in the larger scheme, and don't know anything, or don't care its just a paycheck the MOST the johnson could do it hire them to get it back. by exposing more of his top secret project, and issuing out more money.

Which also a hell of a good argument why doing things like investigating who the Johnson is and why he would want you to do this are a really bad idea. What you don't know you can't tell and hence it's only somewhat expensive vengeance to have you beaten to death by thugs. If you DO know who the Johnson is and why he wanted you do something it's now strictly business when you get hunted down and tortured to death.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Warlordtheft
post Nov 20 2009, 09:56 PM
Post #19


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,328
Joined: 2-April 07
From: The Center of the Universe
Member No.: 11,360



QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 20 2009, 04:41 PM) *
Which also a hell of a good argument why doing things like investigating who the Johnson is and why he would want you to do this are a really bad idea. What you don't know you can't tell and hence it's only somewhat expensive vengeance to have you beaten to death by thugs. If you DO know who the Johnson is and why he wanted you do something it's now strictly business when you get hunted down and tortured to death.


The problem with that is that you will never know if the Johnson is out to screw you.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Nov 20 2009, 10:25 PM
Post #20


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Nov 20 2009, 02:56 PM) *
The problem with that is that you will never know if the Johnson is out to screw you.

Essentially it's up to your fixer to screen them. Truthfully, the whole "Johnson Meet" schick is a problem for anyone thinking about how to avoid being caught. The Johnson doesn't want to meet or be tied to the people doing illegal things and the runners don't want to be tied to the Johnson.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nezumi
post Nov 21 2009, 02:50 AM
Post #21


Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet;
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,546
Joined: 24-October 03
From: DeeCee, U.S.
Member No.: 5,760



QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 20 2009, 04:41 PM) *
Which also a hell of a good argument why doing things like investigating who the Johnson is and why he would want you to do this are a really bad idea.


No, it's a good argument as to why you should not get CAUGHT investigating the Johnson. That's an important distinction (and why you'd ever let your target know that you're researching your Johnson is beyond me).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Nov 21 2009, 04:46 AM
Post #22


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



QUOTE (nezumi @ Nov 20 2009, 07:50 PM) *
No, it's a good argument as to why you should not get CAUGHT investigating the Johnson. That's an important distinction (and why you'd ever let your target know that you're researching your Johnson is beyond me).

The fact that most runners do and gain some useful data is a good enough reason why your target might choose to aggressively come after you. Like I said, it's a pretty nonsensical idea that a pro would want to meet the runners. He's going to talk to a trusted fixer, using circular language that doesn't actually demand illegal activity and ask if the fixer might know some people who could help him out. The fixer is going to say something like "I might know some people, how much would my resolving your issue be worth?"

Then the fixer finds the team and probably uses yet another cut-out to do the negotiation, one who doesn't know who the fixer is or the Johnson, communicating via some controlled pathway.

Then when the team does get picked up all they can tell is that some minor thug named Vito asked them to steal blah and paid them x for it and gave them this set of data.And Vito skipped town when they went off to do their thing.

If everything goes well, the customer gets his blah, the fixer makes a pile of money, Vito makes a pretty good amount of money and the team gets whatever is left.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jericho Alar
post Nov 21 2009, 04:50 AM
Post #23


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 304
Joined: 29-October 09
From: Pittsburgh
Member No.: 17,812



In some cities that's exactly how it goes down. (Neo-Tokyo comes to mind).

In Seattle there's this custom where Mr. J's actually make the meet in person. I think it has to do with the fact that it's a frontier town and the 'law' is pretty spotty, comparatively speaking.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ol' Scratch
post Nov 21 2009, 05:02 AM
Post #24


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890



QUOTE
Then the fixer finds the team and probably uses yet another cut-out to do the negotiation, one who doesn't know who the fixer is or the Johnson, communicating via some controlled pathway.

Err, that is the Johnson. They're the professional middlemen who deal with the runners. They are not the clients. They have no vested interest in the job itself, only seeing that it gets done. The only flaw in your logic is that the Johnson is the middleman between the client and the runners who uses a Fixer to meet them. The Fixer is the guy who comes away with his hands clean, which is why they stay in business and why runners trust them as much as they can trust anyone. They're the real neutral party that has nothing to do with the actual crimes to be committed.

What happens on the Johnson's side is his business. There may be other middlemen between him and the actual client, but that has nothing to do with the runners. And that's the point of having a Johnson.

That's not to say a Johnson can't be the client, but that's a rare situation when things have started getting personal. Not the typical run-of-the-mill shadowrun.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jericho Alar
post Nov 21 2009, 05:07 AM
Post #25


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 304
Joined: 29-October 09
From: Pittsburgh
Member No.: 17,812



Although most games operate with the conceit that the Johnson is usually on some corporation's direct payroll; which doesn't really make sense unless you start making handwave motions and muttering 'extra-territoriality' under your breath...

..although it can make the game much more fun.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 24th May 2024 - 01:37 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.