Invoking and Inhabitation Options

[ghostapathy]

This is probably a stupid question but I want to know. I have Invoking metamagic, can I use this with spirit inhabitation?

[Mikado]

This is probably a stupid question but I want to know. I have Invoking metamagic, can I use this with spirit inhabitation?

No, inhabitation destroys the underling personality. Possession simply pushes it aside.

[pbangarth]

The process of Inhabitation may affect what elements of the Invoking still have effect after the merge is consummated. But you can still use Invoking with spirits that Inhabit rather than Materialize or Possess.

[Jaid]

No, inhabitation destroys the underling personality. Possession simply pushes it aside.

you're thinking of channeling i think, the metamagic technique that allows you to retain control when a spirit possesses you. he's talking about invoking, the metamagic technique that lets you create great form spirits.

and i don't see why it wouldn't work... provided you can bind inhabiting spirits (i seem to recall some difference where they don't need to be bound to stay around indefinitely, but i assume you have to bind them to retain control over them...)

[Neraph]

Check out the thread in my signature. Feed your inner power-gamer. I'm preparing a new post for it, incidentally.

[Mikado]

you're thinking of channeling i think, the metamagic technique that allows you to retain control when a spirit possesses you. he's talking about invoking, the metamagic technique that lets you create great form spirits.

and i don't see why it wouldn't work... provided you can bind inhabiting spirits (i seem to recall some difference where they don't need to be bound to stay around indefinitely, but i assume you have to bind them to retain control over them...)

Ah, yes. My mistake.
I do remember this coming up a while ago. Invoking turns a normal spirit into a greater one. The only class of spirit with Inhabitation is Ally spirits. Note that Ally spirits do not have a greater form. You can not give an ally a "greater form" power either because those powers are not on your regular spirits powers list. Just like how you can't give an ally a power from a spirit you can't summon just because you can bind one that you banished from another mage. There was a Dev post about it somewhere but damned if I can find it right now...

[Neraph]

Insect shaman can Invoke their spirits, and all of them have Inhabitation stock. Granted, most often the Invoking is used to make a queen...

[Mikado]

Insect shaman can Invoke their spirits, and all of them have Inhabitation stock. Granted, most often the Invoking is used to make a queen...

And your talking about Insect shamans... Something that, in my opinion, should only be an NPC. Right up there with toxic shamans and blood mages.
I did not take insect spirits into account because I did not count them as one of the spirit types a PC can summon. Be that as it may, ally spirits still can not be invoked. Well, maybe they can but they gain nothing from it. No spirit powers, no attribute bonuses... That was all covered a while ago. IIRC Synner is the one who posted the rules on that. Him or AH, it has been a year, maybe more, since that topic.

[Ol' Scratch]

Ah, yes. My mistake.
I do remember this coming up a while ago. Invoking turns a normal spirit into a greater one. The only class of spirit with Inhabitation is Ally spirits. Note that Ally spirits do not have a greater form. You can not give an ally a "greater form" power either because those powers are not on your regular spirits powers list. Just like how you can't give an ally a power from a spirit you can't summon just because you can bind one that you banished from another mage. There was a Dev post about it somewhere but damned if I can find it right now...

No, you can give your ally spirit any powers that a spirit in your tradition can possess. I believe the line is something like "you may give your ally spirit extra powers available to spirits your tradition can conjure." No limitation on 'normal' or great form powers whatsoever. Technically, even if you don't have Invoking, you can give it great form powers since at no point does the procedure limit you to the spirits you can summon, only your tradition. Individual GMs should apply that limitation at the very least, as well as limiting anyone who takes the Mentor Spirit geas that limits your conjuring to your mentor spirit bonuses. Those are house rules, though.

[Muspellsheimr]

No, you cannot give an Ally spirit a Great Form power.

A character cannot summon a Great Form Spirit of Man just by virtue of being a Hermetic, thus it is not a spirit your tradition can conjure.



I do not have access to my books at the moment, but I recall the rules being somewhat vague as to if you can Invoke an Ally Spirit or not. I remember determining that, Rules as Written, you cannot for some reason - I think it was something along the lines of although you use the Binding skill in conjuring an Ally, you do not actually Bind it, & thus Invoking cannot be used.

[pbangarth]

"Immediately after summoning, the ally spirit must be bound following the normal rules for binding. .... If the binding is successful, the initiate immediately pays Karma equal to the cost of the ally spirit. The character must expend the predefined amount of Karma or the ritual fails.

"If the ritual succeeds, the initiate immediate [sic] takes a Complex Action and makes an Invoking test.

(emphasis mine)
My guess is you can't do two separate things immediately. As far as I can see, this is the only thing in RAW that could prevent Invoking an ally spirit.

[AKWeaponsSpecial...]

I thought I read something about re-binding an Ally spirit in order to improve it....and why *not* Invoke it when re-binding it? If I got that confused with something else, mea culpa.

[pbangarth]

The Ritual of Change requires a new Binding Ritual, and new spending of Karma. So, if the collision of "immediates" applies in the first Ritual, it will apply in ensuing Rituals as well.

[Ol' Scratch]

No, you cannot give an Ally spirit a Great Form power.

A character cannot summon a Great Form Spirit of Man just by virtue of being a Hermetic, thus it is not a spirit your tradition can conjure.

Wrong.

A character cannot summon a Spirit of Man, period, by virtue of being a Hermetic. But it is within their capability of doing so because of their tradition if they have the proper training to do so. Which a metamagic technique is as much as the Summoning skill is; training.

What a mage cannot do by virtue of their tradition is summon, say, Plant Spirits. Great form or not. Because that is a limitation of their tradition.

Your house rules do not equal the rules. The rules clearly state that you can give an ally spirit any power belonging to spirits found within your tradition. Period. You technically don't even have to have Invoking or the ability to freely summon those spirits, such as with the Mentor spirit geas. You can give them to your spirit regardless of that fact. Though a GM should limit it to powers of spirits you can actually conjure yourself.

[Mikado]

Wrong.

A character cannot summon a Spirit of Man, period, by virtue of being a Hermetic. But it is within their capability of doing so because of their tradition if they have the proper training to do so. Which a metamagic technique is as much as the Summoning skill is; training.

What a mage cannot do by virtue of their tradition is summon, say, Plant Spirits. Great form or not. Because that is a limitation of their tradition.

Your house rules do not equal the rules. The rules clearly state that you can give an ally spirit any power belonging to spirits found within your tradition. Period. You technically don't even have to have Invoking or the ability to freely summon those spirits, such as with the Mentor spirit geas. You can give them to your spirit regardless of that fact. Though a GM should limit it to powers of spirits you can actually conjure yourself.

And Great Form spirits are not under anyones regular summonable spirits. They are an advanced form of a spirit available to a select few who have the training to get them. Where under any of the write ups for any tradition do you see great form spirit? The ability to change a spirit into a great form spirit is from metamagic. Or put another way: You never DIRECTLY summon a great form spirit but change a regular spirit into a great form. By that alone makes great forms not a regular summonable spirit.

[Ol' Scratch]

Where are you finding this mysterious word "regular?"

Show me where this word of yours is anywhere in the description of what powers you can give an ally spirit: "Step 3: Choose Powers — Each ally spirit automatically starts with the powers of Astral Form, Banishing Resistance, Realistic Form (p. 102), Sapience (p. 290, SR4), and Sense Link (p. 55) for free. Each also receives one additional power per point of Force, chosen from any powers available to spirits the initiate may conjure. The initiate may give the ally extra powers available to spirits his tradition can conjure at a cost of 5 Karma each. If the magician chooses the Elemental Attack, Energy Aura, or Engulf powers, he must specify what form the power takes."

I certainly don't see it, though upon second reading you do need Invoking to do it. The key sentence is actually the underlined one.

[Mikado]

Where are you finding this mysterious word "regular?"

Show me where this word of yours is anywhere in the description of what powers you can give an ally spirit: "Step 3: Choose Powers — Each ally spirit automatically starts with the powers of Astral Form, Banishing Resistance, Realistic Form (p. 102), Sapience (p. 290, SR4), and Sense Link (p. 55) for free. Each also receives one additional power per point of Force, chosen from any powers available to spirits the initiate may conjure. The initiate may give the ally extra powers available to spirits his tradition can conjure at a cost of 5 Karma each. If the magician chooses the Elemental Attack, Energy Aura, or Engulf powers, he must specify what form the power takes."

I certainly don't see it, though upon second reading you do need Invoking to do it. The key sentence is actually the underlined one.

Regular in as much as that spirits are not summoned as greater forms but upgraded after you summon a spirit. So it is not a spirit you conjure... Yes it might be a similar test using the same skill but it is not the same. You conjure a spirit then make it a great form. Just because it is a conjuring test does not make it conjuring.

Just because you make a spellcasting test to see what type of spell was cast (if it was not imidiately clear. IE: fireball) does not mean you cast a spell.

[Ol' Scratch]

Sorry, but that's just stupid. Especially your last line which implies that a magician can't cast any spells at all just because he can. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[Mikado]

Sorry, but that's just stupid. Especially your last line which implies that a magician can't cast any spells at all just because he can. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

I am not sure if you mistook what I was writing or I am mistaken on what you wrote above...
I never implied that a mage can't cast spells.
On the off chance that you mistook what I wrote let me explain.
1) Mage A cast a spell. He makes a spellcasting test.
2) Mage B cast a spell. Mage A sees mage B cast a spell and wants to know what it is. Mage A makes a spellcasting test.
Where did Mage A cast a spell in #2?

1) A Mage summons a spirit. That mage makes a conjuring test.
Then...
2) That mage wants to make it a great form spirit. That mage makes a conjuring test.
That test is not a conjuring test but an "invoking" test. Just because it uses "conjuring" does not make it the same.

[Ol' Scratch]

I did misread you, sorry.

Regardless, the rules say "any spirits the initiate can conjure." Not "any spirits the initiate can conjure using the Summoning skill alone." Conjuration is the whole kit-and-kaboodle, not a single skill.

[Mikado]

I did misread you, sorry.

Regardless, the rules say "any spirits the initiate can conjure." Not "any spirits the initiate can conjure using the Summoning skill alone." Conjuration is the whole kit-and-kaboodle, not a single skill.

A mage can conjure a spirit not on his list... he just has to banish it first. And if we allow that where do we stop...
A mage summons a possession spirit and has it take over a dragon. The dragons powers are now the spirits. I believe that was given as an absurd example put forth by Synner in his discussion about this topic.

:EDIT:
I believe the question was: What level of seperation do you allow for. The answer is ZERO.
Invoking is a level of seperation, binding a banished spirit is a level of seperation, powers granted to a possession spirit when it takes over a body is a level of seperation.
:EDIT:

[Neraph]

Regular in as much as that spirits are not summoned as greater forms but upgraded after you summon a spirit. So it is not a spirit you conjure... Yes it might be a similar test using the same skill but it is not the same. You conjure a spirit then make it a great form. Just because it is a conjuring test does not make it conjuring.

I completely agree with and will back up this viewpoint. The Great Form powers are granted by an Initiatory Metamagic, and are not in fact a power that can be used by a spirit you summon. It is a power granted by a metamagical effect.

Otherwise, you get someone who grabs Ally Spirit with his first 13 karma, grabs a F1 Ally Spirit, and gives it all the Great Form powers available to the spirits of his tradition.

[darthmord]

I did misread you, sorry.

Regardless, the rules say "any spirits the initiate can conjure." Not "any spirits the initiate can conjure using the Summoning skill alone." Conjuration is the whole kit-and-kaboodle, not a single skill.

I see where they are coming from.

You are a mage. You are summoning a spirit. You can choose from 5 different ones.

What results from the Summoning test? A normal, un-Invoked spirit. The spirit of the limitation (no pun intended) on Ally spirits is that you can only give powers to your Ally that you can have on any spirit you Summon.

Invoked spirit powers aren't part of a summoned spirit. They go from Summoned Spirit to Invoked Spirit when you use Invoking (and they still inherit any limitations that aren't specifically overridden by Invoking).

That said, I would see it as a perfectly reasonable House-Rule to allow a magician that has Invoking to be able to add Invoked powers available to his summonable spirits to his Ally.

[Neraph]

I see where they are coming from.

You are a mage. You are summoning a spirit. You can choose from 5 different ones.

What results from the Summoning test? A normal, un-Invoked spirit. The spirit of the limitation (no pun intended) on Ally spirits is that you can only give powers to your Ally that you can have on any spirit you Summon.

Invoked spirit powers aren't part of a summoned spirit. They go from Summoned Spirit to Invoked Spirit when you use Invoking (and they still inherit any limitations that aren't specifically overridden by Invoking).

That said, I would see it as a perfectly reasonable House-Rule to allow a magician that has Invoking to be able to add Invoked powers available to his summonable spirits to his Ally.

you get someone who grabs Ally Spirit with his first 13 karma, grabs a F1 Ally Spirit, and gives it all the Great Form powers available to the spirits of his tradition.

[darthmord]

It'll take more than 13 Karma for the ritual. Adding that many powers to the Ally will get expensive fast enough.