Horizon Group: What's the deal?, Discussion Thread Options

[secondrate]

Horizon = Dunkelzahn

Simples!

[Blackb1rd]

Horizon = Dunkelzahn

The more i thiink about this i see it as a definite possibility, Dunkelzahn may have left, and did in fact leave, many plans behind for the future of the Sixth World. It is a definite possibility that the actions he took during his life time to secure his interests after death may have given birth to Horizon, Horizon under this theory would have to be a good corporation then, because they'd be carrying on the Big D's wishes. Still i'm kind of reluctant to believe that is the case because if it was we would have to believe that a corporation in the sixth world is actually benevolent and not completely profit-driven. The theory would explain why it kind of just materialized overnight, i mean look what Dunkelzahn and night did with the Nanosecond Buyout, that has to be some of the most incredible market manipulation ever it seems like it wouldn't be hard to create a company in the same manner, at least not for a Great Dragon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) . Also it would explain why Horizon is unopposed on the Corporate Court, Dunkelzahn held a major share of stocks in both Aztechnology and Ares 2 of the 3 largest Corps in the world, and the 3rd is run by a dragon meaning Lofwyr probably knows what's going on anyways so he wouldn't interfere if he deemed it a worthy cause.

However, even with this twist, i believe putting one of the "usual suspects" behind Horizon would be just bad storytelling on the part of CGL. They've got a very demanding fan base and we really don't want a new dragon to pop up at the helm or bugs to be expanding their operations globally...

I believe what we really need as fans is an explanation as to why they're good or for the writers to explain why they're evil, as i've said before this is a world of gray/Black Morality, if Horizon does turn out to be something genuinely beneficial to the human race then it would mean the beginning of major changes doe the Sixth World, and that's all i have to say about that,

[Jericho Alar]

DIMR = Dunkie (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Stahlseele]

D had his Claws and Talons in just about everything.

[Nath]

i mean look what Dunkelzahn and night did with the Nanosecond Buyout, that has to be some of the most incredible market manipulation ever

It probably is, though no author ever even tried to give an explanation of what the Nanosecond Buyout actually was

[ If you ask me, it's just hi-speed decision pattern analysis targeting one corporation that had a sizable part of its stock managed with slower trading bots. But it still fail to explain why Knight feared Lucien Cross could have the same trick working a second time against him. ].

[Tiger Eyes]

And is it really so far out there to believe that a group of socially-conscious, business-savvy people got together, determined to make a corporation that could challenge the "evils" of the megacorps through a positive, people-centric business model that focuses on Proactive Profitability, the concept that when you create profit off of those things that also improve the world (socially, environmentally, etc), you create a cycle of positive change.... And that really, these people are simply very intelligent, very talented philanthropists who have tapped into something none of the other megas have attempted?

Where's the warm fuzzy feelings, people? The trust? The belief in the basic goodness of metahumanity?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Ask the Universal Brotherhood. I think i saw it last with them.

[secondrate]

Did Dunkelzahn leave anything mystical sounding to Cline in is will? I'm thinking possession if he did.

[Tsuul]

And is it really so far out there to believe ...

Yes

Where's the warm fuzzy feelings, people?

They are in this years number one rom-com SIM, 'SINless in Seattle'.

The trust?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

The belief in the basic goodness of metahumanity?

The only group that would overwhelmingly attest to the goodness of metahumanity disagree with the types of condiments best used in its presentation.

[Saint Sithney]

Where's the warm fuzzy feelings, people? The trust? The belief in the basic goodness of metahumanity?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

Those are all really good markets.
Particularly the warm fuzzy feelings market. If they can corner that warm fuzzy feelings cred then they're set for all time.
And, surely, when a Shangri-La strike team shows up to liquidate your whole operation and claim Imminent Domain over your Intellectual Property Rights, you can at least die knowing that your works will go on to make people feel happy and good.

..and so the battle wages over future addictions.

[Starglyte]

In one of the short stories in Seattle 2072, Cline has a hostage fired( by way of gun drone). Mentions the Consensus as making decisions, very quickly it seems, about things from company buyouts to hiring of a worker holding a gun to the CEO's head. It is little thigs like that make think that Horizon is just as evil and coldhearted as our AAAs we know and love to hate.

[Blackb1rd]

And is it really so far out there to believe that a group of socially-conscious, business-savvy people got together, determined to make a corporation that could challenge the "evils" of the megacorps through a positive, people-centric business model that focuses on Proactive Profitability, the concept that when you create profit off of those things that also improve the world (socially, environmentally, etc), you create a cycle of positive change.... And that really, these people are simply very intelligent, very talented philanthropists who have tapped into something none of the other megas have attempted?

Where's the warm fuzzy feelings, people? The trust? The belief in the basic goodness of metahumanity?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

Yes, Tiger, it is that hard for me to believe, we've spent the last couple decades following a world where it is practically deadly not to be paranoid. There's been no good that has come out of anything really, everybody's after their own interests in Shadowrun and they have very little feeling for others. Sure 4th Ed. is slightly more happy than 3rd Ed. where things were downright nasty but I refuse to believe that this is a genuinely good corporation mainly because they literally lifted themselves to AAA Status in less than a decade, there is something incredibly shady about that. Something really strange is going on at Horizon, if they're so goody-goody why all the secrecy? Huh? Whats up with the Consensus?

As stated in the opening post of this thread i believe horizon is at it's very best a Knights Templar, a well intentioned extremist/radical. They may not have gone public quite yet but even if they do have the best of intentions i can see them doing nothing but taking it way to far. Oh and i jsut read the piece of fiction from Seattle 2072 mentioned above, creepily evil stuff in my opinion. all it shows is that they milk their employees for ideas and then when they're "usefulness score" drops below a certain level they eliminate them.
Not so nice.

Furthermore the basic goodness of metahumanity, and humanity for that matter, was flushed down the proverbial toilet a long, long time ago. There's nothing particularly redeeming about the status of society right now. There's murder, mayhem and money to be found on every street corner, my group recently took out a Clinic in Bellevue that was headed by an organ legging neurosurgeon. For Christ's sake the evil has infiltrated the med clinics in the richer areas of the Seattle metroplex, a small but pertinent example of the virus that is evil in the world of Shadowrun.

The notion that there is any true good left in the world is almost to absurd to fathom, it's hard to believe that people, especially a whole group of rich and intelligent ones, would get together and form a corporation focused on bettering metahumanity and not making a profit. I don't like it, it just doesn't sit right with me.

As a side note I'm going to be wary of anything a Catalyst employee says until there is proof as to what i'm supposed to believe in print, you could be trying to lead us astray for all i know. Oh and are you a fan of diamonds or are pearls more you're thing? You know just in case it ever comes down to that....(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Nath]

Did Dunkelzahn leave anything mystical sounding to Cline in is will? I'm thinking possession if he did.

No, or he used a different name back then. Horizon appeared for the first time in SOTA:2064. As far as I can tell, if Gary Cline is quickly described in SR4,he's only named in Corporate Enclaves.

According to his will, Dunkelzahn held stock in Megamedia, Brilliant Genesis and Amalgamated Studios. None of those corps are part of Horizon.

[darthmord]

Theirs also a third possible option, what if Horizion is something powerfull, but its actualy someone trying to help humanity? And not in the dark "I'm going to enslave you for your own good" type. A would be massiah, trying to reach out by giveing horizion the power it need in return for its help as a front for its goals?
You think so?

Ya me neither.

Hidden bequest in Big D's will perhaps?

[LurkerOutThere]

I find it funny that the only way people can ascribe benevolence to something in this setting is if it's linked to the Dragon Jesus that's been dead for about approaching ten years of real time.

I find the concept of a wholy benevolent entity as unworkable as anyone but Horizon hasn't been shown to be wholly benevolent, they've been shown to make a business model out of both the perception and the actuality of making the world a better place. As long as that continues to work for them I expect great things, it would be bad storytelling to have ANOTHER universal brotherhood scenario especially when there are entirely plausible mundane explanations.

But if i had to put a shadowy power behind Horizon I'd vote for Mirage, basically benevolent super AI with a penchant for psychotropics and a deep understanding fo the metahuman psyche disapeared during the crash, now pops up in the pro technomancer camp.

[Blackb1rd]

LurkerOutThere, You have nailed my sentiments exactly, at the very least Horizon just another profit driven machine, but no, i still don't believe that that the only thing they've got their hands in is Nuyen, however all the other possibilities presented have either large holes, or very tiny ones, but either way they all leak somehow. This just leads me to become further paranoia and think that maybe the Devs have something truly creepy in store for us, hopefully an awe inspiring moment that proves that are worst nightmares of the Sixth World are coming to true and this very well may be the proverbial end, then again, they could just be a simple profit driven monster. But who would believe that? Even if Catalyst did just come out in the open and say alright we've toyed with you long enough, Horizon's just another Corp it still wouldn't feel right to the fans, theres always something dark and twisted going on. Who can resist the temptations that the power of media manipulation brings anyways?

[BishopMcQ]

Just a thought, but when was the last time a megacorp caused this much contention, in-fighting, paranoia, and geekery from the fans? Methinks the devs are likely to sit back, make some popcorn, and just watch. (This is of course, me ascribing my own behaviors onto Jason.)

*channeling Tommy Lee Jones*
We all "knew" that the world was flat, we all "knew" that the sun circled the Earth, we all "knew" that all the megas are evil...think of all the things we will "know" tomorrow.
*/channeling*

[darthmord]

Believe me, I have a high enough Jewelry Knowledge skill to spot the fakes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Be that as it may be (or not), I've seen some hand made stuff from plastic / glass beads and wire that simply puts the professional stuff to shame in quality and appearance.

[Blackb1rd]

Just a thought, but when was the last time a megacorp caused this much contention, in-fighting, paranoia, and geekery from the fans?

Probably never, and that's why this is such a unique case, we have good solid info on the other Corps and their origins, Horizon just doesn't fit into the "explained" category, it's a very mysterious corporation and we're all very curious to see what comes out of it.

[Tiger Eyes]

Just a thought, but when was the last time a megacorp caused this much contention, in-fighting, paranoia, and geekery from the fans? Methinks the devs are likely to sit back, make some popcorn, and just watch.

Luckily I have a great recipe for homemade caramel corn. Makes the viewing even sweeter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[StealthSigma]

Luckily I have a great recipe for homemade caramel corn. Makes the viewing even sweeter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Caramel is bad for your teeth. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

...however all the other possibilities presented have either large holes, or very tiny ones, but either way they all leak somehow. This just leads me to become further paranoia and think that maybe the Devs have something truly creepy in store for us, hopefully an awe inspiring moment that proves that are worst nightmares of the Sixth World are coming to true and this very well may be the proverbial end, then again, they could just be a simple profit driven monster. But who would believe that? Even if Catalyst did just come out in the open and say alright we've toyed with you long enough, Horizon's just another Corp it still wouldn't feel right to the fans, theres always something dark and twisted going on. Who can resist the temptations that the power of media manipulation brings anyways?

Yawn! I have a piece of wisdom, there are huge holes in all of the megacorporations and the setting itself. I'm not sure why in horizon's case you ascribe those holes lead to and I direct quote "hopefully an awe inspiring moment that proves that are worst nightmares of the Sixth World are coming to true and this very well may be the proverbial end" my first response is a suggestion is that you switch to decaf. My second is the question of whether that is what you actually want? A hackneyed oWoD style "We're alll gonnna die because Horizon is secretly CTHULU!". For my part and in my games is going to be this, Horizon is a megacorp who makes their money more then most on image and information if anything this makes them more dangerous to work for as they'll burn deniable assets quicker then others if you tarnish their image.

[Blackb1rd]

All right, I'm not saying that Horizon is driven by something as cliche as Cthulu. The developers are much smarter and much more creative than that. I'm not saying that it will bring the literal end of the world either, i used the qoute you pulled to emphasize a point. that point is that whatever is behind Horizon will be revolutionary and world changing (at least i hope it will be). Look at what they've done in a decade, it really is incredible how wide Horizon's influence has spread in such little time. All i'm saying is that, in my mind, there is definitely something deep and creepy going on. Regardless of whether or not other corporations pasts have holes in their origins none of them have as big a hole as Horizon, for every other AAA you can find enough reasonably satisfying information on the Sixth World Wiki, except Horizon group, they remain as elusive as ever. I understand how you're using them in your game, and it makes perfect sense for them to act like that on the surface And the part about them knocking off deniables without a thought.... further proof of the "evil" at foot. I put evil in qoutations because maybe there is some good to what's behind Horizon, probably not, but maybe. Furthermore why would a company need deniable assets if all they were after was helping the world. The only thing i think a company thats benevolent would need is an expert security force to keep the bad guys out.

As a side not the last time i had caffeine was 20 hours ago.

[Nath]

Probably never, and that's why this is such a unique case, we have good solid info on the other Corps and their origins, Horizon just doesn't fit into the "explained" category, it's a very mysterious corporation and we're all very curious to see what comes out of it.

More precisely, we were given good solid info on the others Corps before we had Internet to complain. It's only with Aztlan, Blood in the Boardroom and Corporate Download (add the Dragonheart Trilogy for Ares Macrotechnology) that the history of each of the AAA megacorps was really detailed. All previous books, including Corporate Shadowfiles, were rather vague.

[tagz]

Honestly... I hope it doesn't get explained. I like the mystery. I like the whole idea of a seemingly good mega corp that we can't help but distrust for no reason other then our own learned (survival-) instincts.