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> SR4A: Consealment Rule Change, Does this make sense to you?
Tycho
post Nov 22 2009, 11:01 PM
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hi,

at the weekend I noticed a rule change in the consealment Power, a sentence was added, which makes no sense for me at all:

QUOTE ("SR4A p. 293")
...concealed subjects can see each other if the critter allows it. Concealment also allows dual natured critters to conceal themselves and others from astral detection.


So, now I searched for Astral detection and found the rules an page 193:

QUOTE ("SR4A p.193")
Astral Detection
Physical beings may sense when an astral form passes through their aura. Make a Perception + Intuition (4) Test; apply a +2 dice pool bonus if the character is Awakened. If the test is successful, the character feels a chill or tingling from the passing of the astral form. Security personnel are often trained to recognize this feeling as a sign of an astral intruder.


BUT:

- physical powers do not work on astral form, nor can you use them in astral space
- a "dual natured critter" is physical there, so if his astral form presses trough an aura, he would run the guy over.
- why can only dual natured critters conceal from astral detection?

so, what the heck was the intention of the sentence?
If that should mean, that concealment (a physical power) is able to hide your aura, it would be a major screwup of the difference of the astral and the physical plane, but I am eager to be enlighted.

cya
Tycho
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 22 2009, 11:07 PM
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Concealment is basically Infiltration on crack. Infiltration works on the astral, too, if you know how to take advantage of it there. There's plenty of things to hide behind or blend in with on the stral, such as trees, windows, walls, etc. Dual-natured beings can perceive both worlds, so when they use Concealment they know how to blend into both environments rather than just the physical realm. At no point is the magic affecting the astral plane, it's just allowing the creatures to hide better.

Also, dual natured does not mean the Dual Nature power. It means anyone who's active on both planes at once. That includes magicians using astral perception or materialized spirits.
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Tsuul
post Nov 22 2009, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (Tycho @ Nov 22 2009, 06:01 PM) *
- a "dual natured critter" is physical there, so if his astral form presses trough an aura, he would run the guy over.
Isn't your aura bigger then you? So if something brushed passed you (next to you, but through your aura) you would normally get that ghost in the room feeling.
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Ancient History
post Nov 22 2009, 11:12 PM
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The idea here is that Concealment can be used by dual-natured critters to hide themselves from detection by astral perception, which is not normally the case.
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Jack Kain
post Nov 22 2009, 11:24 PM
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Yeah AH says it best.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 23 2009, 01:37 AM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Nov 22 2009, 05:12 PM) *
The idea here is that Concealment can be used by dual-natured critters to hide themselves from detection by astral perception, which is not normally the case.

Uh, yeah they can. Just like they can in the physical world. Concealment just makes it better. The first example that comes immediately to mind is SM, p. 114: "Determining cover works the same way on the astral plane as it does in the physical world (see pp. 140–141, SR4). Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting. Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world (like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows. Since there are no ranged weapons on the astral plane and spell targeting depends on seeing your target, hiding behind physical shadows works as well as hiding behind a vibrant aura."

There's no reason at all a dual-natured or fully astral character shouldn't be able to hide except for an absence of rules on how to handle it. Especially when rules refer to it being possible.
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hobgoblin
post Nov 23 2009, 01:47 AM
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QUOTE (Ancient History @ Nov 23 2009, 12:12 AM) *
The idea here is that Concealment can be used by dual-natured critters to hide themselves from detection by astral perception, which is not normally the case.

in other words, dual-natured masking?
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 23 2009, 02:03 AM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Nov 22 2009, 07:47 PM) *
in other words, dual-natured masking?

For some reason he doesn't think Masking works the way Masking works.
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Ancient History
post Nov 23 2009, 02:06 AM
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Doc Funk and I have different interpretations of things.
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hobgoblin
post Nov 23 2009, 02:36 AM
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not surprised (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)
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JoelHalpern
post Nov 23 2009, 03:22 AM
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As I understand it, the difference between dual-natured masking (along the lines of the free spirit power, or the initiate power) and conceal is that conceal is a "you don't see me." It doesn't change what you look like, but rather makes you less noticeable.
In contrast, masking lets you decide what you look like. You are still noticeable. But instead of "there goes the power dual-natured being", beings looking at tha aura see an ordinary human (optionally even a completely non-magical ordinary human). or most any other aura you want. This can disguise an initiate as non-magical, or disguise a free spirit as a meta-human.

Yours,
Joel
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Tycho
post Nov 23 2009, 07:03 AM
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QUOTE ("Dr. Funkenstein")
Concealment is basically Infiltration on crack. Infiltration works on the astral, too, if you know how to take advantage of it there. There's plenty of things to hide behind or blend in with on the stral, such as trees, windows, walls, etc. Dual-natured beings can perceive both worlds, so when they use Concealment they know how to blend into both environments rather than just the physical realm. At no point is the magic affecting the astral plane, it's just allowing the creatures to hide better.


QUOTE ("SR4A p.293")
physical powers cannot be used in astral space or affect astral forms.


No, consealment, a physical power, does not affect the astral form of the critter, so he cannot hide this astral presence with consealment.


QUOTE (Ancient History @ Nov 23 2009, 12:12 AM) *
The idea here is that Concealment can be used by dual-natured critters to hide themselves from detection by astral perception, which is not normally the case.


But the sentence specific states Astral Detection and not Astral Perception (which is used serveral times in other powers) and if Concealment works on both planes simultaneously, it brakes with basic magic rules of the shadowrun world, that magic is seperated between the astral plane and the physical plane. All magic only works on one or the other but never on both planes.
Concealment is a physical power, so you can not use it on astral forms or on the astral plane, so that you can not conceal your astral from to avoid astral detection, nor astral perception.

cya
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Ancient History
post Nov 23 2009, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE (Tycho @ Nov 23 2009, 07:03 AM) *
But the sentence specific states Astral Detection

Actually, it's "astral detection." No caps. You're reading too much into this.

QUOTE
if Concealment works on both planes simultaneously, it brakes with basic magic rules of the shadowrun world, that magic is seperated between the astral plane and the physical plane. All magic only works on one or the other but never on both planes.

Nnnno. By your logic, all dual-natured critters should automatically explode because they exist on both planes simultaneously.

All rules, stated or not, have their exceptions. In this case, a specific exception was made to allow Concealment to work for dual-natured critters.
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 23 2009, 11:10 AM
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QUOTE (Tycho @ Nov 23 2009, 01:03 AM) *
No, consealment, a physical power, does not affect the astral form of the critter, so he cannot hide this astral presence with consealment.

It's not affecting the astral form of the critter. It's affecting the critter, period. Again: Hiding behind a tree works on both the physical and astral planes. Concealment (note the lack of an S) makes it so they're really good at hiding behind trees. Or shadows. Or anything else in the area that makes good cover. Dual-natured critters can see both planes, so they can see every possible type of cover available on both planes, thus allowing the power to improve their use of Concealment (again, no S). In cases where Concealment is moving, say, a tree to hide you rather than vice-versa, the tree's aura is moved along with it. Not because the power is affecting astral space, but because its affecting the tree itself.

Note that Materialization is a Physical power, too. Yet 1) it's used while astral and 2) it effectively affects both their astral and physical bodies at the same time by creating one for the other. That's because the power is affecting them, not astral space. Movement, another Physical power, works just fine on dual-natured critters. Yet the universe doesn't explode when their astral form gets dragged along at the heightened speed. Because, again, it's affecting the critter, not astral space.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Nov 23 2009, 11:25 AM
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FTR, this is a significant SR4A change not noted in the SR4A Changes Document.

Personally, I'm not entirely certain this change is a bad thing, as this is the only real protection from Astral Patrols checking the Physical Plane.
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hobgoblin
post Nov 23 2009, 11:37 AM
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iirc, its stated somewhere that a more complete changes/errata document is on its way, but right now catalyst has its hands full with multiple new releases in multiple game lines...
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Tycho
post Nov 23 2009, 12:17 PM
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Concealment works even if I stand right before some guy with no cover whatsoever. So it has very little to do with infiltration. Sure infiltration helps to avoid detection, in the physical and the astral plane, but Concealment makes you less detectable without even trying to avoid detection.

What your trying to tell me is, that the allready mighty concealment power is now able to make Watcher and guard spirits with force <4 useless, because they cannot even see an concealed astral form? That you can avoid assensing simbly by being concealed instead of learning masking?
What is with the astral presence of the power itself, you should be able to see the working concealment power in the astral space, which should make you even easier to detect.

cya
Tycho


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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 23 2009, 12:21 PM
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Think whatever you want, man. I'm tired of arguing obvious shit with people around here.
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hobgoblin
post Nov 23 2009, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE (Tycho @ Nov 23 2009, 01:17 PM) *
What your trying to tell me is, that the allready mighty concealment power is now able to make Watcher and guard spirits with force <4 useless

unless i missed something, watchers where mostly useless as anything but message couriers anyways...
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Nov 23 2009, 12:38 PM
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QUOTE (Tycho @ Nov 23 2009, 02:17 PM) *
What your trying to tell me is, that the allready mighty concealment power is now able to make Watcher and guard spirits with force <4 useless, because they cannot even see an concealed astral form?

Actually, the Astral Perception dicepool is only depleted if the Force of the concealing entity is twice the Force of the perceiving entity.
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Doc Byte
post Nov 23 2009, 01:25 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Nov 23 2009, 01:30 PM) *
unless i missed something, watchers where mostly useless as anything but message couriers anyways...


Astral comlink: "You stay right here in manifested form, tell anythink I'm telling you via our mindlink to this guys and you tell me anythink they're telling you via mindlink. Got that?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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hobgoblin
post Nov 23 2009, 01:30 PM
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heh, just make sure it understands the language (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"me no habala espanjol" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)
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TKDNinjaInBlack
post Dec 3 2009, 05:41 PM
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Think of the Concealment power as a coating or covering that makes one's form harder to see.

On the physical, this is similar to the effect the chameleon suit has to visual perception tests. It doesn't make one disappear, just harder to see as they blend in with the background. Their physical form, if detected, will betray the fact that they are a metahuman. On the physical plane, concealment works just like that, but has the added bonus of also applying to other sensory perceptions as well. Of course concealing taste doesn't seem that practical, but I am amused at the thought of a spirit using concealment on a particular ingredient in some fancy culinary dish to try and mute its taste in order to ruin a meal for a food critic who would try to detect it. I digress.

One thing to keep in mind is that this power stacks with other modifiers. Just like a spy who is wearing a chameleon suit and hiding in the bushes (they would have -4 bonus for the suit in addition to the partial or good cover modifier for the foliage), concealment can stack with other sensory modifiers to make the individual who is concealed harder to detect. Infiltration checks additionally set the threshold for a possible detector to see (*note below*), but when they make the check they have to take the modifiers that are relevant (i.e. if I have bonus modifiers to mask scent, they would do nothing against a video camera). The most important point to remember though, is that they don't disappear or change form, they are only harder to detect.

This is the same on the astral. Concealment would not make one's astral form or aura disappear, nor would it change what it looks like if detected (i.e. Masking). It just makes it harder to see. The color or details of one's form or aura might become muted and start blending into the ambient background illumination, other aura noise, or shadow clutter. Observe that this modifier then could also stack with other astral visibility modifiers as well. Being concealed for a -3 modifier while moving through busy city sidewalks littered with signs and trash clutter everywhere might net a character a total bonus of -5 to -8. Of course, being concealed by the same force 3 critter and standing in a clean hospital room with no other people won't net them any bonuses. They'll still be exposed and their detector will even get a bonus +1 die because of the location, even if they're still concealed. If they weren't though, their detector's bonus would be even better (+4).

Lastly, I've always played in my group that whether dual natured, as a perceiving adept might be, or just projecting as an astral form, a character could use their infiltration skill on the Astral plane. By being able to see the objects that they could better use to hide themselves, they can maneuver and put things between them and a possible observer in order to give themselves some bonuses (or I should say more correctly, give their opponent some negatives) on their infiltration check. If the detector wins, their net hits start giving information about the subject according to the assensing table (doesn't make sense that someone trying to not be seen would be much harder to study?).
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BishopMcQ
post Dec 3 2009, 09:12 PM
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TKD--For Concealing taste (and scent since they're linked), imagine concealing the taste of a poison, to make it harder for an individual to notice. That would increase the chances that an individual eats a sufficient quantity of the dish to suffer the effects of the poison. This could effectively counteract the Olfactory or Taste Boosters that an individual bought.
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TKDNinjaInBlack
post Dec 4 2009, 12:55 AM
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Good job putting that to use. I guess I am not malicious enough to come up with a good reason! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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