SR Equilibrium Adaptation, Something I did for one of my Players Options

[Stumps]

A new player was sitting down to make a character for the first time and performed the classical instance of requesting to be some super-powered and outrageous firearms assassin.
Any GM is very used to this from certain first-timers.

Traditionally, we just look at them, rough up their cute hair, and say, "No."
We then explain why something like Neo (from the Matrix), The Monk with No Name (from Bulletproof Monk), John Lee (From the Replacement Killers) is just not possible in Shadowrun.

Well...this one kind of took the cake when he showed be Equilibrium's John Preston.
He simply pointed to a few clips of the show and said, "I want to do that."

I started off with the typical, "No."
Later, since I hadn't gotten around to watching the movie, I researched it a bit to see what was going on with this "Gun Fu" bit.
I found I could actually plausibly consider this, though not quite like the movie.

What follows is an adaptation that I created to allow for this player to vicariously play his dream within the bounds of Shadowrun.

You may wonder why. Essentially, I try to figure out a way to make anything playable and challenging to play because I don't mind making game mechanics, and I really just want folks to have fun.
I'm not too strict on the concept of reality (things like Neo aside from the point).

The only reason I have said, "No", to all of the previous requests is that folks tend to choose heroes in movies that simply don't have probable methods of displaying mechanics to control their extreme levels of kicking butt.

This time, however, that was very different.

The reason why is because in Equilibrium, they given an excuse that these super assassins are able to accomplish these amazing feats by simple memorization of moves that optimize their chances of hitting and reduce their chance of being hit.
This is explained as being all based on probability.

I reasoned that the assassins are basically, just fighting mathematicians.
Aside from the fact that not even a super-computer could compute the probable odds at play, I decided that it could be (in a stretch) explained in SR by someone with an incredibly high rate of acumen, statistical computation, and had a brain development that was abnormal in the sense of seeing probabilities as visual colors and shapes in 3 dimensions.
(There are similar cases to these in reality, for example, some people that can see literal 3 dimensional color/shapes of music, or numbers).

There are a few requirements:
The character must have statistical mathematics skill (a specialization of mathematics) at a rating of 8.
The character must have Gun Kata (a specialization of combat/martial arts) at a rating of 8 (this does not roll, or get used; it is simply the tax).
They must have been, or be, a product of a AAA corporation's experiments in creating super killers.
The character must be a Physical Adept with at least 3 points in powers (suggestively, perception based powers).
The character must have the Edge, Number Form Synaesthesia. (it's classed as an Edge because there are no negative side affects to Synaesthesia commonly)

There are also restrictions during combat for this type of character:
No flaws regarding fear of technology, or incompetence with it are allowed.
They may never aim.
They may never used called shots.
They may never use FA firearms.
They may not mix melee with firearm fire in a Combat Phase.
No firearm modification target number modifications apply while using their Gun Kata.

If they do any of the above, they lose their "Equilibrium" bonuses.


Here are the bonuses:
-2TN to firearm attacks
No combat modifiers (save for appropriate magical, damage, and range modifiers) apply to the character when they make attacks while in Gun Kata form (this includes total darkness).
They may attack two targets in one simple action without penalty.
Multiple targets in melee penalties do not apply.
+2TN to any attacker attacking them.


Now, these aren't automatically gained bonuses.
There's a bit of play to be had first.
Here's how it works.

They use this wheel.

(I just cut them out and placed them onto two cardboard circles and tacked them together so they can be rotated)

The outer ring stays put, while the inner circle moves two spaces clock-wise every time they start an action in a Combat Phase of theirs.
Use a marker or token of some kind to show what number space they are on.

They are allowed three spaces of movement per action (may take less).
They may only move around on the inner circle (but you can move out to an outer circle space from the inner circle).
They may only move around the inner circle in a clock-wise movement.

When on a White space, they may only attack one target in their simple action.
When on a Blue space, they may only attack two targets in their simple action.

When they finish their Combat Phase, their Defense probability roll is equal to the opposite value from which ever space they are currently on.

(So if they are on the White 18 in the outer ring, then their defense roll will be 10, as it is the opposite value of the 18).


Once they choose their space for their attack, they then roll a d20 (I know...blasphemy, but hang in there, it's just for a probability roll).
If the result of the d20 roll is equal to or less than the value of the space they are on, then their Gun Kata bonuses are applied to their attack roll.
If the roll is higher than the value of the space, then the Gun Kata bonuses do no apply.

After this, they roll a normal attack per SR rules (or your house rules, if different from standard).

When they are attacked, they roll a d20 and if the result is equal to or less than the opposite space from where they are on the wheel, then the attacker receives a +2TN to attacking them.




An Explanation....
What this simulates is the concept that is in Equilibrium whereby the character is moving through probabilities, and not really aiming at anything.
In fact, it doesn't matter where people are at all to him.
It only matters where they most probably will be, and where they will most probably shoot.

Therefore, the wheel is in motion to represent the probabilities being in motion during combat, and your defense is the direct opposite of your attack choice because in Equilibrium, every move is a mix between increasing probabilities to hitting, and decreasing the probabilities of being hit.
Therefore, you are forced to choose between a mix of probabilities with each move.

You can only move 3 spaces, and you have to balance single and multiple target restrictions because you will see probabilities that favor one or the other better, and you must decide which is better.
You can also predict future up-coming probabilities and try to lay out a movement pattern to move around on the wheel.


Now, for added dynamics (and I suggest this), you can make it more difficult by spinning the outer wheel around at the beginning of combat, and then turning the inner ring so that the two blue opposing 9's line up with whatever outer ring space is facing the top.
This makes it harder for the player to get a specific set of patterns down.



Anyways...that's how I got Equilibrium squeezed into SR.
And it's kind of fun actually....it somewhat adds in a chess-like play to the combat.

[Critias]

That all seems absolutely more complicated than it needs to be. There's already rules for fighting with two weapons, there's already rules for firing a pistol in melee combat, there's already a whole slews of rules to make you react fast and dodge well, etc, etc, etc.

Just pick solid stats, get the right cyberware/adept powers, and all the rest is fluff and flavor. Snag an Actioneer Suit like everyone else, a couple snazzy pistols, have your character slick back his hair, and call it a day.

[Stumps]

That all seems absolutely more complicated than it needs to be. There's already rules for fighting with two weapons, there's already rules for firing a pistol in melee combat, there's already a whole slews of rules to make you react fast and dodge well, etc, etc, etc.

Just pick solid stats, get the right cyberware/adept powers, and all the rest is fluff and flavor. Snag an Actioneer Suit like everyone else, a couple snazzy pistols, have your character slick back his hair, and call it a day.

Yes, there are rules for those things.

None of them will simulate moving through probabilities at no negative cost to chance to hit (like normal SR rules handle things).
Nor will they force the player to strategically choose "moves" that balance out offensive and defensive probabilities.


It's only complicated to explain.
In use, it's incredibly simple.

[Ol' Scratch]

You can already duplicate "Gun Fu" to a degree with the rules. Grammaton Clerics are pretty much the definition of gunslinger adepts. Make them an elf just to eek out every last point, max out their Agility, put their one 6 rating into Pistols (Semi-Automatics), max out Magic, get Improved Pistols 3, Improved Reflexes 2, and Combat Sense 4, and customize a Colt Manhunter or any other heavy pistol so that it has Firing Selection Change: BF and FSC: FA, and Custom Look 2. Give it a Gas-Vent III and Smartgun System. Take the Ambidexterity and Martial Arts: Firefight (+2 when using a firearm in melee combat). Grab the Clinch, Set-Up and Finishing Move maneuvers. And... you're pretty much done. You have Agility 7 + Pistols 11, or 18 dice. Split in two that's 9 dice when two-fisting your pistols, which is more than most enemies will have with a single weapon. When just using one, which will be more often especially when fighting a big bad enemy (like the final fight in Equilibrium), you'll also get +2 dice from your smartlink for 20 dice total. Which is the max you can apply to a single roll anyway.

Once you initiate once, you can score Attunement (Pistols) and attune to both pistols. Now when you're two-fisting, you're up to 11 dice. And you can probably find additional bonus dice in other places.

And that's all off the top of my head. No special rules needed.

[The Jake]

Spot on. I posted some sample builds in a Street Samurai thread on this board somewhere using cyber and maxed out agility. I abused cyberarm mods to make use of machine pistols and gyromounts, but yeah, adepts work.

No house rules needed here.

- J.

[hahnsoo]

Not to mention that there are very effective "Gun Martial Arts" styles already in Arsenal. Look at Ares Firefight or Krav Maga on page 157 of Arsenal for details. You can even mix the two on the same character to get Free Action: Take Aim, Free Action: Ready Weapon, reduction of attacker in melee combat, etc. Sprinkle on some Cyberware, the Ambidexterity positive quality, and/or some Adept powers to taste.

Firefight is already essentially the gun katas from Equilibrium. Shadowrun doesn't need to be limited to the silliness of that movie (There's a whole Sixth World of silliness to explore! *grin*).

EDIT: Wait, wait... I see someone manipulating Target Numbers in the original post. I hope this isn't 4th edition we're talking about here... In any case, similar rules exist in the Cannon Companion for 3rd edition.

[Stumps]

I think that everyone is missing something.
Yes, you can accomplish similar builds using a variety of rules, as well pointed out.

However, they do not simulate the concept of movement probabilities and moving through those probabilities like a chess game.

The above constructed system does more than just give you super ninja abilities.
It makes your super ninja abilities a mini-game in themselves.

You have to look at the probabilities, and try to maximize your probabilities of hitting while minimizing your probabilities of being hit.
Each space is a representation of one move in the kata, and therefore one move you are making to increase your probabilities of hitting and at the same time decreasing your probabilities of being hit.

It's volatile, and not a running constant, unlike all of the suggested builds mentioned in response.


It's not superior in build concept; it's just different.
It does what the other build concepts do not offer, and that is that it brings in a mechanic that allows one to think like the character in Equilibrium; to see probabilities and move towards them.


Edit: this is 3rd edition

[Ol' Scratch]

Uhm, yeah those methods do account for probabilities. That's what the dice rolls represent, in fact. And the higher the dice roll, the higher the probability of you calculating the proper move. It's all about using the effect to describe the rules, not creating rules to describe the effect. It's a perception thing, I guess. Somehow I doubt that'll persuade you though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hahnsoo]

I think that everyone is missing something.
Yes, you can accomplish similar builds using a variety of rules, as well pointed out.

However, they do not simulate the concept of movement probabilities and moving through those probabilities like a chess game.

The above constructed system does more than just give you super ninja abilities.
It makes your super ninja abilities a mini-game in themselves.

You have to look at the probabilities, and try to maximize your probabilities of hitting while minimizing your probabilities of being hit.
Each space is a representation of one move in the kata, and therefore one move you are making to increase your probabilities of hitting and at the same time decreasing your probabilities of being hit.

It's volatile, and not a running constant, unlike all of the suggested builds mentioned in response.


It's not superior in build concept; it's just different.
It does what the other build concepts do not offer, and that is that it brings in a mechanic that allows one to think like the character in Equilibrium; to see probabilities and move towards them.


Edit: this is 3rd edition

The way Ares Firefight martial arts is described is a dead ringer for the Equilibrium gun katas. Also, many modern-day current Krav Maga techniques are based on a similar concept. Grammaton Clerics don't calculate probabilities... it's rote, in muscle memory, over years of practice. That's why they are called "katas" (the same term for martial arts form practice). They do it automatically, without any calculation whatsoever. In theory, all someone would have to do is create a counter-martial art or method of shooting that confounds the gun katas by exploiting the rote nature of it (as with all similar martial arts).

And all of the calculations in the world won't replace the fact that what you are describing is the use of a Combat Pool from 2nd edition. You are dynamically adjusting the probabilities each time you enter a fight, every round. You might want to simply resurrect that, instead of making house rules based on what you think you saw in Equilibrium.

[djinni]

why is it every new gm, hand waves a "no" when they don't like something and then when they like it they want the easy way out and instead of researching the system and explaining a bonus in flavor they always want to change the game?
not 4th edition?
shadowtech: tactical computer
4th edition?
unwired: tacnet
other books: everything they already said

cut...print...we're done.

the clips from the movie are not (read that again...I'll wait to let it soak in) a beginner character. john preston is the best. the top ranked, he is the one and only person who could ever pull off that final scene (assuming the movie was X'D "real") a beginning character would be in the beginning stages of the end all be all of "gun kata." if he had ever even done it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think that everyone is missing something.
Yes, you can accomplish similar builds using a variety of rules, as well pointed out.

However, they do not simulate the concept of movement probabilities and moving through those probabilities like a chess game.

The above constructed system does more than just give you super ninja abilities.
It makes your super ninja abilities a mini-game in themselves.

You have to look at the probabilities, and try to maximize your probabilities of hitting while minimizing your probabilities of being hit.
Each space is a representation of one move in the kata, and therefore one move you are making to increase your probabilities of hitting and at the same time decreasing your probabilities of being hit.

It's volatile, and not a running constant, unlike all of the suggested builds mentioned in response.


It's not superior in build concept; it's just different.
It does what the other build concepts do not offer, and that is that it brings in a mechanic that allows one to think like the character in Equilibrium; to see probabilities and move towards them.


Edit: this is 3rd edition

Dice Rolls aside, that comes down to pure Fluff... A lot of work for no reason at all...

Keep the Faith

[Stumps]

Uhm, yeah those methods do account for probabilities. That's what the dice rolls represent, in fact. And the higher the dice roll, the higher the probability of you calculating the proper move. It's all about using the effect to describe the rules, not creating rules to describe the effect. It's a perception thing, I guess. Somehow I doubt that'll persuade you though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I know, and honestly Funk, if I was just looking at allowing him to simply be a super-ninja, I would go with the route you discussed.

And the probabilities you are talking about are true, but they don't really simulate the same concept.
The system I've got running creates a teeter totter affect that I imagine is much like this concept of moving from one move to the next in a Kata as it's described, or rather imagined, by the creator of the Equilibrium movie.

The way Ares Firefight martial arts is described is a dead ringer for the Equilibrium gun katas. Also, many modern-day current Krav Maga techniques are based on a similar concept.

I know, I looked at all of that, and researched real life techniques employed around the world by different forces.

Some of the ideas came from those examinations.

Grammaton Clerics don't calculate probabilities... it's rote, in muscle memory, over years of practice. That's why they are called "katas" (the same term for martial arts form practice). They do it automatically, without any calculation whatsoever. In theory, all someone would have to do is create a counter-martial art or method of shooting that confounds the gun katas by exploiting the rote nature of it (as with all similar martial arts).

Yep, I know it's muscle memory, but in all honesty, that would just get you killed.
To make it probable, you would have to be able to adjust on the fly, and move into moves that increase the odds into your favor as you best predict things.

You wouldn't be able to just move through a kata anymore than a current martial artist can move through a kata by rote and succeed.
The moves need to adjust and you would have to adjust them on the fly, and considering the speed of what's going on, the probabilities would be the chief defining principle.

The tug and pull between attack and defense probabilities.

And all of the calculations in the world won't replace the fact that what you are describing is the use of a Combat Pool from 2nd edition. You are dynamically adjusting the probabilities each time you enter a fight, every round. You might want to simply resurrect that, instead of making house rules based on what you think you saw in Equilibrium.

True, thought about doing that actually.
Just didn't really tangibly give the concept a fun mechanic for the player to harness.

Keep in mind, it was his request to make a character that would play and interact with the odds in this manner.
He didn't request to just have a super ninja, or just flexible probabilities in general.

He wanted a character that was modeled after the concepts outlined by the director of Equilibrium.

why is it every new gm wants the easy way out and instead of researching the system and explaining a bonus in flavor they always want to change the game?

I've been GMing Shadowrun for over a decade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I have a long history of abnormal rule creations.
Dr. Funk is used to these weird things from me; hence his comment about persuasion.

[Marwynn]

That's certainly an interesting take on Equilibrium's "gun kata".

"Kata" means "form" or really a choreographed set of movement patterns. Now SR is lacking the probability analysis (somewhat) and moving through different sets of them.

However, the Gun Kata of a Grammaton Cleric is based off rote memorization. Muscle memory. They're completely movements, with each stance and movement having a set of tags: like one stance reduces the chances of getting hit from the forward 90 degree arc with 3 or less shooters in that same area.

Someone well drilled would have these memorized and would be able to link certain movements together for maximum effect as the situation warrants. Then you get to near Jedi-like levels.

This is probably best represented with lots of Martial Arts skills. I feel that is more faithful than relying on Magic or even Ware. Though of course they'd help.

[Ol' Scratch]

It's actually best represented by a crazy Reaction score. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Stumps]

That's certainly an interesting take on Equilibrium's "gun kata".

Thank you.

"Kata" means "form" or really a choreographed set of movement patterns. Now SR is lacking the probability analysis (somewhat) and moving through different sets of them.

Exactly.

However, the Gun Kata of a Grammaton Cleric is based off rote memorization. Muscle memory. They're completely movements, with each stance and movement having a set of tags: like one stance reduces the chances of getting hit from the forward 90 degree arc with 3 or less shooters in that same area.

This is why I made this system with the wheel.
It represents a kata with all of those things.

The alternative was to go through and make such a crazy amount of maneuvers that include such probability bonuses to them...I uh...yeah...didn't really feel like doing that.
So I made the wheel to simulate the same concept ambiguously.

It's actually best represented by a crazy Reaction score. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Funny you should mention that.
I've been playing with a different, and yet unrelated, mechanic on that subject as well.

But that's a different subject all together. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[McCummhail]

I think this may be over-complicated, but if you and your player enjoy it then it is worth it.
This is a prime example of the corollary to rule zero.

How did you decide on the arrangement of the numbers on the wheel?
I had expected some kind of balance to the numbers across the wheel similar to dice.
(ie. d6 sides all add up to 7, 6-1, 5-2, 4-3; and d20 add up to 21, etc)
Having a constant in this manner would balance each square regarding offense / defense.

Alternately the gun kata "equilibrium" bonuses could be distributed across the wheel.
Then moving through the stances would focus more on the intended bonus of certain maneuvers/stances

For the character themselves you might suggest the adept powers or cyberware that enhance computational ability like the Math SPU. This would be very beneficial for handling probability calculation.

+1 for SR Mentat combat

[Stumps]

I think this may be over-complicated, but if you and your player enjoy it then it is worth it.

Well, I actually just showed him shortly after posting this bit and he, being a Chess player himself, was thrilled.
So it worked out well.

How did you decide on the arrangement of the numbers on the wheel?
I had expected some kind of balance to the numbers across the wheel similar to dice.
(ie. d6 sides all add up to 7, 6-1, 5-2, 4-3; and d20 add up to 21, etc)
Having a constant in this manner would balance each square regarding offense / defense.

Well, the first thing I did was settle in on the fact that I didn't want an easily identified distribution; it needed to be "cryptic", so that each choice of movement around the wheel was as close to a new choice and not a constantly repeating choice; as much as possible.

Firstly, they are distributed with as much variety as possible in the opposing pairs as possible.
If you go around the outer wheel, you'll see a pairing of opposites as follows:
(White: W, Blue: B)
W18,W10
B10,B13
W13,W15
B15,B18
W12,W15
B15,B12

W10,W18
B13,B10
W15,W13
B18,B15
W15,W12
B12,B15

I split the list at the relative repeating combination threshold.
This is because W18,W10 is different than W10,W18.
This is because if he chooses W18, W10, then he is choosing to have an attack probability of 18 or less, and a defense probability of 10 or less.
Meanwhile, if he chooses W10,W18, then he is choosing just the opposite.

In this manner, there are 24 combination's on the outer ring and 23 on the inner (B9,B9 repeats once on the inner ring).
This gives us 47 (an odd number) total combination's in an non-symmetrical pattern.

These are good attributes for creating the sensation of reading into the probabilities of real life "random" occurrences; like the probabilities of the trajectory of walking; which, as a path, is not evenly distributed in probability and is non-symmetrical in pattern as a total path line...in fast forward...we're not terribly different, as random seeming goes, as a fly's flight path.

I first spent time identifying the primary percentages that I wanted.
It took a bit of playing around to find values that I felt weren't too high or too low; gave a couple nice high probabilities as incentives, had a decent medium probability to average on, and had a few lows that you wanted to avoid.

9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
18

45%
50%
55%
60%
65%
70%
75%
80%
90%

(skipped 17 to increase the enticement of the 18)

The inner ring has
09 - 45%
11 - 55%
14 - 70%
16 - 80%

While the outer ring has
10 - 50%
12 - 60%
13 - 65%
15 - 75%
18 - 90%

You can most likely see the bounce back and forth...the staggering between the rings.

The exception is 12 and 13 are both left on the outer ring.
This is mostly to create more diversity in the outer ring, while leaving the inner ring more paired.
The inner ring has combination's that reoccur, but switch whether they are single or multiple opponents combination's.
In the outer ring, this does not occur, except on the 12,15/15,12 pairs.

I kept games like Candy Land in mind mostly.
The idea of having spaces involved that work as motivators to keep moving to another space; this can be seen in the spaces of 10 and 9's, especially.
The 18's and the 16's work as carrots to chase.

This leaves us with our bulk of medium values to most often traffic.

Mostly, I did some graphs to make sure that in most cases, the outside was the preferred shot, but that in a couple spots the inner circle was the preferred spot.
Here is a graph showing each individual spaces probabilities (not paired with their opposites) as they occur starting from B10 to W18 clockwise on the outer wheel, and B9 to W16 clockwise on the inner wheel.

Click

And here's a graph showing the total sum values between paired opposites (in straight addition of the values on the spaces)
Click

What's fun is that as the second graph shows a sort of gear ratio type climb where it climbs, then receeds, then climbs, then receeds, etc.., increasing over all with each climb and then repeats...almost like a car...the probabilities for the attacks (which will be the most often paid attention to value) will not repeat this way.
Further, you can see the areas where the inner circle over-takes the values of the outer circle.

Now...start spinning the outer circle and starting from whatever space stops at the top on the outer circle, and whatever space stops on the inner circle, those two graph lines (blue and orange) line up differently.
(I ended up deciding to spin both wheels at the beginning of combat and he liked that idea better as well, so we went with it; it reduced predictable path's of traffic on the wheels.)


A large part was sitting in illustrator for a few hours playing with the numbers to shuffle them around in ways that I liked.
I would place them, and then test the rules of movement and see if I had a hard time making choices, or too easy of a time.
I would then reshuffle the numbers a bit more, try again, repeat.

Eventually I ended up with a "Candy Land" board in a two ring circle and I was happy.

Alternately the gun kata "equilibrium" bonuses could be distributed across the wheel.
Then moving through the stances would focus more on the intended bonus of certain maneuvers/stances

That would be an interesting way of doing it too.

Not sure how you would go about notating that on the spaces though...would there be 47 unique modifiers?

For the character themselves you might suggest the adept powers or cyberware that enhance computational ability like the Math SPU. This would be very beneficial for handling probability calculation.

+1 for SR Mentat combat

Another good idea.


This time, we went with a created back-history of the AAA Corp. creating a medical process of introduced Number Form Synesthesia that appears visually in 3 dimensional space (like we do) to the character...something like a scatter plot graph running live in his head.
So he sees something of a combination of the following:
http://developer.teradata.com/sites/all/fi...rs/image011.jpg
http://helpcentral.componentone.com/nethel.../image27_21.png
http://www.onosokki.co.jp/HP-WK/products/k.../3dspread_b.gif
http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/2007/02/0...112-bad-day.png
http://www.star.bris.ac.uk/~mbt/topcat/fig...ian3DWindow.gif

...and then just moves to the brightest and most clustered areas.

These values match the kata movements, as it was programmed to be so when "installed" into his mind.

So it's like a smartlink, but a scatter plot smart link of probability.


He doesn't see it all of the time because it wasn't "programmed" to be that way, but it does invade when outside of combat here and there.


And then I gave him amnesia and made the AAA after him, so he really hasn't any idea why he's this good at combat, or why he sees these synesthetic visions.

[Mercer]

I have players in my game who would kill to have a minigame like this. (One made a similar wheel, or string of three wheels, to represent a magical lock/trap in his own game.)

That said, when my group was playing SR3 we "adapted" Gun Fu by allowing melee and unarmed successes to cancel firearms successes if the gun was being used in melee combat. It made for some interesting "wrestling over the gun" combats.

[Stumps]

I have players in my game who would kill to have a minigame like this.

By all means, go for it.

Since it's just an added layer and not a replacement, it could technically be slapped onto any version of SR, or any RPG for that matter.
It's just a matter of adjusting the bonuses to what you want them to be if you need them adjusted.

we "adapted" Gun Fu by allowing melee and unarmed successes to cancel firearms successes if the gun was being used in melee combat. It made for some interesting "wrestling over the gun" combats.

That sounds fun...I might borrow this idea for my current campaign.
It would work well with some of the other rules we're running.

You could also run this idea along side of the above wheel system (which I will be doing after having read this concept, thanks!)

[Critias]

To clarify, I'm not "missing" anything. I'm also not misunderstanding. I just don't see the need for it, is all. Especially in SR3, which already has combat pool, aim actions, Centering rolls, tactical computers, and a whole slew of other ways to recreate probability manipulation in order to affect combact effectiveness (on offense or defense). I've used most of them, and many of them in a single character at once. If you know how to play the system, it's plenty effective.

It just seems unnecessary to me to complicate it this much, and add yet another "game within a game" that only one player can enjoy (where you already have the rest of the group twiddling their thumbs while one guy runs drones, goes on astral projections, or goes decking). I'm not saying your rules are bad, I just think they're extra clutter when the system as written can handle a two-gun guy just fine.

If you and your players like it, knock yourself out.

[McCummhail]

I laud your attention to detail in your distribution.
I see now why they are distributed that way.

If you wanted to use individual bonuses instead of %chance for all bonuses, here is an idea:
2 rings, one for offense, one for defense with a marker on each ring
each turn roll 1d6 and player must one or both markers a number of squares clockwise,
the total equal to the die roll.
(ex. roll of 1 must move off or def 1 square, roll of 6, off6 def0 - off3 def3)

Rings have blue/white alternating squares:
white applies bonus to a single target
blue applies bonus to 2 (or all?) targets

Offense ring:
-2 tn to firearms
-1 tn to firearms
ignore movement penalties
ignore firearm penalties (recoil, 2wpn, etc)
ignore melee penalties

Defense ring:
+2 tn to SS/SA attackers
+1 tn to SS/SA attackers
+2 tn to BF/FA attackers
+1 tn to BF/FA attackers
Can parry firearms attack in melee range

This split allows more choice and tactics to the situation.
The die designating circle movement roughly simulates
the shifting landscape of battle and probability.

I can only hope some of this gives you ideas. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Stumps]

Critas,

That's cool man.
I wouldn't say that I would suggest this for, or force this on, everyone.
I only created this at the request of the player for what he was wanting, and I don't mind creating mechanics at all.

I would say, however, that though you can create an equal or more effective character with canon rules, I can't really agree with the idea that the same game play is felt.
As to the extra complexity; it really isn't as complex as it seems. It's not like drones, matrix, or going astral; you simply turn the wheel and move a few spaces, roll, and that's it. Everything after that is normal resolve (with the bonuses that may apply from this system).
So no one will really be sitting around waiting for him to hurry up and get done; he'll be done faster than most of the mages in the group.

I was very concerned about that issue of adding wasted time with an extra mechanic, so it minimizes the amount of time spent on the new mechanic as much as possible.

Hell, he's not even forced to use it every action if he doesn't want to use it.
If he wants to aim, or just break kata, then he just stops using it.

But, like I said before, I only posted this as a show of something that is novel; not as a suggested replacement.

------------------

McCummhail,

That's a very interesting approach.
I like that quite a bit.

I'm probably not going to go with it this time around, but that might very well be an arrangement that I could play around with if he wants to play with this kind of thing again in the future.

That is a very creative approach.

(oh, and yeah, I only do two opponents maximum because if you think about it...you can't really attack more than two opponents at once in one single simple action; and since it's supposed to be a kata, making it include spray-and-pray machine gun fire would be odd [regardless what occurred in the movie or not]...so it's single or two, but you can switch which two per simple action with no penalty to doing so.)

[McCummhail]

McCummhail,

That's a very interesting approach.
I like that quite a bit.

I'm probably not going to go with it this time around, but that might very well be an arrangement that I could play around with if he wants to play with this kind of thing again in the future.

That is a very creative approach.

(oh, and yeah, I only do two opponents maximum because if you think about it...you can't really attack more than two opponents at once in one single simple action; and since it's supposed to be a kata, making it include spray-and-pray machine gun fire would be odd [regardless what occurred in the movie or not]...so it's single or two, but you can switch which two per simple action with no penalty to doing so.)

Excellent.
I can understand going with the approach that is already worked out and vetted statistically.
I definitely see limiting it to two targets for the attacks, more than two would be primarily for defense.
I was seeing the defensive bonuses applying to one selected target or to multiple opponents.
Martial Arts generally have stances better suited to single or multiple opponents and applied that logic here. Something to consider. +2 tn to All opponents attacking you is radically different from +2 tn to one opponent.

[Stumps]

Excellent.
I can understand going with the approach that is already worked out and vetted statistically.
I definitely see limiting it to two targets for the attacks, more than two would be primarily for defense.
I was seeing the defensive bonuses applying to one selected target or to multiple opponents.
Martial Arts generally have stances better suited to single or multiple opponents and applied that logic here. Something to consider. +2 tn to All opponents attacking you is radically different from +2 tn to one opponent.

Correct.

So if you choose single opponent (white), then your +2 only goes against the target you attacked.
If you choose two opponents (blue), then your +2 goes to anyone that attacks you.

Namely this represents the single vs. multiple opponent stances you were discussing.