Buying Lots of Contacts, talking about Chargen, not bribery Options

[Jericho Alar]

@The lock picking thing - Lockpicking 5 should be as good as two extra points in logic, and if it isn't you may need to do something about it as the GM.

thank you for providing the deconstruction to justify why other GMs under-utilize contacts...

20 BP worth of contacts should be as good as two extra points in logic, and if it isn't you may need to do something about it as the GM.

(I just picked a relatively low-utilization skill; substitute Parachuting, or any other skill, if you like.)

[edit]I realize you're probably not against the idea of contacts being useful, I just liked your summary of BP equivalency and wanted to restate it for contacts.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Err, it's just BP equivalency and an opportunity cost. If it's not as good as adding 4 to your stats, or getting 10 points worth of skills, it means that the players with extra contacts with be underpowered.

I do not see how this is tricky, complex, or requires exceptions handling?

@The lock picking thing - Lockpicking 5 should be as good as two extra points in logic, and if it isn't you may need to do something about it as the GM.

(Btw: If your concept involves 'being shit' then yes you will be underpowered. 'Skills that fit the concept' has nothing to do with balance and shouldn't even be considered in this discussion - it should be considered by the designers who have a responsibility to make the characters that people want to play playable).

Again with assumptions here... it is not about "being shit" as you so eloquently stated, it is about fitting a concept... if I can fill a concept and still be rolling 8-12+ dice to accomplish something, then I do not need a higher skill than a 4... Check the equivalencies for skill ratings... I know that I rant about this from time to time, but a 4 is a Veteran rating... you have been doing this for years and years... you probably do not even think about the task anymore as it has become rote...

I will say it again... the DESIGNERS have established in the contect of the book that dice pools do not need to be above 12-14 Dice... Examine all of the Contacts, NPC's and Character Archtypes that they have provided, you will find very few with any DP above that... this establishes the general playability of the genre as tehy have envisoned it... can you get above that, SURE... but it is not necessary to do so to be good, or even exceptional. Hell, My hacker has most skills at 3... he is a PROFESSIONAL, and yet with a skill of only 2 still manages to throw 13 base dice for a firearms test with favored weapon (16 if Tacnet is active)... why do I need more than that to be Competent? I bet you cannot explain that can you? I have never seen him as incompetent OR underpowered, and many of the players seem to think that I am more powerful than I truly am, because of my dice pool... what difference would 3 dice make by taking my skill to a 5? Not much, a net gain of 1 solid hit on average...

Too many people make too much out of masive dice pools, the game is not about accumulating dice pools, it is about playing a role that makes sense, and I am sorry, there are only so many World Class (Insert Skill Name Here) characters out there, and apparently, if you listen to many of those on Dumpshock, it is the Player Characters that should be the ones with those levels of skills, and no one else... I do not agree with this in the least... If you want to play in a game where you are the undisputed masters of your skills, Shadowrun is not the game for you, try Feng Shui instead...

Now, I know not everyone agrees with this, and that is okay too... just don't pretend that what is implied and written in the books is irrelevant, it is not... Concept means more than Dice Pools, And in my belief, it always will, because without a coherent concept, you do not have a playable character...

Keep the Faith

[Cthulhudreams]

@Alar - Yeah, that's cool - I'm always tempted to give people random skills like parachuting for free, or roll them up into something like 'is a commando' which covers all the skills like parachuting, scuba-ing etc.

More in general:

Not sure why you've giving me a lecture about DP sizes. It's fairly commonly agreed that starting characters need to be able to roll 12-15 DP in their schtick. If your face cannot roll 12-15 dice in the things he needs to do (fast talk people, shoot people, not get shot, etc) because he blew 40 BP on contacts or skills like 'parachuting' or knowledge skills like 'pottery', then you have a major issue that needs to be fixed.

If your player can make a meaningful contribution and gets a solid share of spotlight time and isn't overshadowed by someone else in his 'problem domain' you're fine.

It's when you consider that somehow having a concept is mutually exclusive from getting 400 BP of value out of 400 BP and unless you spend points on 'basket weaving' you're not a 'real roleplayer' that I think you've lost the plot.

[Jericho Alar]

well, part of it is the diminishing returns of larger pools; the larger pool tend to provide better consistency, but rarely will you find a task that you statistically speaking would achieve noticeably more with 14 dice as opposed to 12. (this has to do with most thresholds capping at 4.)

in opposed tests, every die matters, but the skills as printed on your sheet generally have less impact here because of the large number of situational modifiers that typically get thrown around in these situations.

the notable exceptions are soak tests - since the thresholds are not infrequently 5+

[Jericho Alar]

Yeah, that's cool - I'm always tempted to give people random skills like parachuting for free, or roll them up into something like 'is a commando' which covers all the skills like parachuting, scuba-ing etc.

ultimately the problem is the balance between useful skills and an easily implemented BP system: in some games skills of varying utility actually cost varying amounts; in other games skills are of varying breadth. (e.g. B&E would be a single skill in such a system, but combat skills would be split out like they are in SR3)

Shadowrun has gone for ease of implementation, largely, and SR4 in particular has done some work in balancing weaker skills by rolling them into larger skill groups (which cost 10 regardless of how many skills are in them.) although the aforementioned lockpick and parachuting are two that are not part of skillgroups by RAW.


Personally, I think parachuting is under utilized in most games simply because it doesn't fit with the game concept (most notably street games) - although given that parachuting includes base-jumping I think an enterprising 'runner could find many ways to use the skill. Scuba on the other hand would generally confound me as a GM outside of a boat-pirate based game...

[Lindt]

I have a dirty secret I pull out with new characters and contacts. I have a pile of roughly 40 pre-generated contacts that I let my players pick from if they dont want to make their own (and thus submit a short paragraph on them). It makes it easy for me to keep them all straight, and allows me as a GM to play them they way I think they should be played. Plus it makes the often hard work of picking a few contacts much faster.
Also, other runners make AMAZING contacts. By that I mean all those old, retired, , possibly dead, never-saw-time, and/or just thrown touther for fun PCs you all have get to have some new life as NPCs.
Just remember that while that social adept you rolled up has 20+ contacts, hes still a social adept and is going to be damm near impossible to get to lower his prices.

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah, lots of shadowrunners come from military backgrounds though, and as I'm always keen to enable characters that people want to play finding some way for the ex-military commando guy to get 'parachuting' on his sheet without crippling himself pointlessly is always a good idea in my opinion.

Btw: If you accept the BP equivelency thing, skill groups are overpriced, because the 10 points for the skill group is only worth it for

a) the first point where you get two effective dice for 10BP

B) once you've maxed out the stat

or

C) Long term games because you can arbitrage the karma advancement vs BP creation system.

Incidently, I think the other reason the skill doesn;t come up much is that only 1 guy has it, so you cannot make your escape route 'base jump out of the 55th flaw of the Aztechnology Pyramid after breeching a hole in the window' because while the Sammie might be able to, the hacker certainly cannot.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Alar - Yeah, that's cool - I'm always tempted to give people random skills like parachuting for free, or roll them up into something like 'is a commando' which covers all the skills like parachuting, scuba-ing etc.

More in general:

Not sure why you've giving me a lecture about DP sizes. It's fairly commonly agreed that starting characters need to be able to roll 12-15 DP in their schtick. If your face cannot roll 12-15 dice in the things he needs to do (fast talk people, shoot people, not get shot, etc) because he blew 40 BP on contacts or skills like 'parachuting' or knowledge skills like 'pottery', then you have a major issue that needs to be fixed.

If your player can make a meaningful contribution and gets a solid share of spotlight time and isn't overshadowed by someone else in his 'problem domain' you're fine.

It's when you consider that somehow having a concept is mutually exclusive from getting 400 BP of value out of 400 BP and unless you spend points on 'basket weaving' you're not a 'real roleplayer' that I think you've lost the plot.

Not what I am saying here... I am saying that you do not have to frontload skills to have exceptional dice pools... if you agree that 12-15 dice in your schtick is enough, then we are in agreement... My point was that if you are there already, and do not need that level of skill, then there is no reason that 40 points of contacts is a bad choice, especially for the Face...

Also, Never forget that 400 BP value is in the eye of the creator of the concept... It may very well be valuable to me to have 40 points worth of contacts at character creation, and as long as I am not a drain to the team, then who is anyone to say that I was wrong?

In the end, it appears that we are in somewhat of an agreement over this, though I will admit that I tend to favor the Concept over the gotta have dice pools high idea... your character can always grow... but at our tabnle, you can never buy contacts after the game starts, you must earn them through roleplaying... so the contacts are a good investment where that extra dice or two in the pool can be added at a later date through Karma expenditures or through money (if it is something that can be augmented)... seems like an easy decision to me...

Keep the Faith

[Cthulhudreams]

Yeah, look - you just need to get 40 points of value out of that 40 points, otherwise you're going to be overshadowed by other characters. I mean 40 points is enough to make the elven shaman into a semi comptent face in addition to whatever else it is he does, so you better get something bad ass out of those contacts.

Part of the problem with contacts - particularly contacts of people other than the face - is that people want the face to buy guns off 'Bobby the Arms dealer' but if he's the contact off Sam the Sammie, its a really weird look.

[Jericho Alar]

Yeah, lots of shadowrunners come from military backgrounds though, and as I'm always keen to enable characters that people want to play finding some way for the ex-military commando guy to get 'parachuting' on his sheet without crippling himself pointlessly is always a good idea in my opinion.

Btw: If you accept the BP equivelency thing, skill groups are overpriced, because the 10 points for the skill group is only worth it for

a) the first point where you get two effective dice for 10BP

B) once you've maxed out the stat

or

C) Long term games because you can arbitrage the karma advancement vs BP creation system.

Incidently, I think the other reason the skill doesn;t come up much is that only 1 guy has it, so you cannot make your escape route 'base jump out of the 55th flaw of the Aztechnology Pyramid after breeching a hole in the window' because while the Sammie might be able to, the hacker certainly cannot.

agree with all points, excepting situations where you have two or more skill groups you want linked to the same stat, at which point it is more cost effective to 'max'* the skill out first and then start buying skill groups. I think this mostly only comes up with Agility however and only for 'well-rounded' combat types who wants all melee and all ranged skills.**

We have had more than one game where the guys who could base-jump went out the side "door" while the face walked out the front although it helps that I've seen deckers who could 'chute (ork+1 parachuting is surprisingly effective with karma/edge for rerolling failures.) )

*max being to racial-1 since the 25 point premium for full racial outweighs even two skill groups..

**it could come up for logic too except that the two groups most wanted in logic are also the two groups that have the least number of tests that actually care about your logic score...


[edit]that said, skills in general are overpriced; as soon as you want two of them from the same linked stat you're better off stuffing points into attributes: this is probably the source of the 1/2 BP maximum in the current system.

Skills are much better priced at 3 per active/ 8 per group but it messes with the value of knowledge skills at that point (Which become overpriced) and make contacts look even less useful...

[Cthulhudreams]

Discounting knowledge skills would logically be mandatory if you going to cut other skills - making them cost 1 is honestly, imho, entirely reasonable.

[Jericho Alar]

Discounting knowledge skills would logically be mandatory if you going to cut other skills - making them cost 1 is honestly, imho, entirely reasonable.

would you reduce the overall BP pool as well? I'm not sure if it'd be necessary but making deductions without adjustment to the overall pool will result in slightly more powerful runners on average.

I'd guess going to a BP total of about 380 would bring it close to the same line, while fixing the imbalance between attributes and skills; although the 1 Attribute point penalty kind of stings.

[Cthulhudreams]

You're increasing skill caps so you're not making runners more powerful, just giving them more things they can do - so it would be a problem with a large party, but with a small one not so much.

I'd try and be proactive in player design to encourage people to keep out of each others schtick.

I'm not a fan of reducing the 200 BP limit on attributes, runners are already only 4 points above joe normal. I'd suggest keeping the limit at 200 no matter what you do.

[Jericho Alar]

You're increasing skill caps so you're not making runners more powerful, just giving them more things they can do - so it would be a problem with a large party, but with a small one not so much.

I'd try and be proactive in player design to encourage people to keep out of each others schtick.

I'm not a fan of reducing the 200 BP limit on attributes, runners are already only 4 points above joe normal. I'd suggest keeping the limit at 200 no matter what you do.

I've actually never had a group smaller than 5 players (+GM) so that's pretty much omnipresent risk in my games (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) if I ever had a group of only 3 or 2 players, I'd actually be tempted to give them extra BP, actually...

I was also under the impression that the average joe chummer in SR was 2s in most attributes; but that might just be me misremembering (I only play SR4; when I GM it's sr3.)

[Cthulhudreams]

The table in SR4A indicates that an attribute of three is "typical" two is "underdeveloped" and 4 is "improved" so yes you are mistaken and the average joe is 3 in most attributes.

I do agree the system works much, much better when the average is 2.

[Nifar]

I'm not sure why this became an argument about dicepools, since I just skimmed again (seriously, what it it with you people and walls of test?), but I'd like to say that 12-15 dice as a starting character sounds a little high. I think my first character was rolling 6-8 dice when he was shooting people, and he was a street sam. Maybe 10.

I don't think I've ever started out with a skill higher than 4, because it didn't make sense. A new character (or my new characters at least) isn't an old pro at this. S/he's someone who maybe has one or two runs under his/her belt before the game starts. If you're importing a character from an old game, or playing in a game where the characters have been in the business for a while, then it's a different story.

[Jericho Alar]

I'm not sure why this became an argument about dicepools, since I just skimmed again (seriously, what it it with you people and walls of test?), but I'd like to say that 12-15 dice as a starting character sounds a little high. I think my first character was rolling 6-8 dice when he was shooting people, and he was a street sam. Maybe 10.

I don't think I've ever started out with a skill higher than 4, because it didn't make sense. A new character (or my new characters at least) isn't an old pro at this. S/he's someone who maybe has one or two runs under his/her belt before the game starts. If you're importing a character from an old game, or playing in a game where the characters have been in the business for a while, then it's a different story.

it fell into a 'value' of BP argument; since generally speaking most tables find the costs of contacts to be too high for the utility that they give in return. we had a tangent discussion of ways to think about what 2 5/5 contacts should be *worth* (about the same as Pistols 5, actually...) and that in turn led to discussion that skills and skill groups are overcosted as well.

in other words, attributes and cash are king and everything else is what you buy when you've maxed out those two. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Nifar]

Right then. I'll stick to my characters that are made for the story value, and leave the stat monsters to other people.

[toturi]

Right then. I'll stick to my characters that are made for the story value, and leave the stat monsters to other people.

Ah... the story value is that the characters are simply that damn good, despite not being an old pro.

Perhaps he is a second generation runner having attended a shadow school.

[Cthulhudreams]

Right then. I'll stick to my characters that are made for the story value, and leave the stat monsters to other people.

This is dumb. Why do stats and stories have to be mutually exclusive? If they ARE mutually exclusive, why do you even play with rules at all? You should just magical tea party it.

If they are not mutually exculsive, what the hell are you talking about?

[Nifar]

This is dumb. Why do stats and stories have to be mutually exclusive? If they ARE mutually exclusive, why do you even play with rules at all? You should just magical tea party it.

If they are not mutually exculsive, what the hell are you talking about?

I'm talking about giving my characters stats and skills at levels that make sense for the character, instead of simply Min/Maxing, then tacking on the personality later.

[Cthulhudreams]

Sure, but you're saying it's a trade off between being effective mechanically and concept. If that is the case, why even have rules? If there isn't a trade off between mechanics and concepts,

I'll stick to my characters that are made for the story value, and leave the stat monsters to other people.

is a non-sequiter

[Nifar]

No, it's not a trade off. I think I'm just having problems expressing myself.

The characters I tend to make work both mechanically and conceptually. They're not as powerful as a Min/Maxed character, but I have more fun playing them. On the other hand, earlier a few people mentioned having characters that are rolling 12-15 dice for certain actions by spending points saved by not buying many contacts. 12-15 a bit high for starting characters, unless said character is someone who has a ton of experience in a certain area, which means that they're not new to the scene anyway.

By not getting contacts, which represent the people your character knows and has connections to, and spending the points instead on stats/skills/cyberware it seems to me like you're focusing too much on the dice, and not enough on your character's backstory. I'm not saying that you should focus solely on story, I'm saying that there has to be a balance.

I hope that explained things better.

[Cthulhudreams]

How is spending money on the cyberware you had installed when you were in the military different from spending money on the contacts you had when you were in the military?

[Nifar]

It's not. And when you make such a distinction, there's no problem. My problem is with the people who spend the money on the cyberware just for the bonuses they get, then tack on a generic "I wanted to be a merc" backstory that doesn't bother to explain they they have all these skills and gear.