IPs- how many? Options

[Mongoose]

Is there a hard maximum to the number of IPs a character can have?
What if they are at this maximum (say from implants / magic) and spend edge for another IP? Or if they take drgugs that grant extra IPs?
Would drugs that grant extra IPs stack with other drugs (such as using both Jazz and Cram) and / or with implants / magic?

And lastly, at what point do you declare spending edge for an extra IP? Any time during the turn? Since movment is tied to the number of IPs in a turn, what effect does this have on movment?

This last question has prompted me to consider a few house rules. First, all turns are treated as having 5 IPs. You can move in all 5, but can only act in as many as you'd normally be able to. And yes, you can get up to 5, but only by using edge. You could get to 4 with implants / magic / drugs, but can only benefit from one drug at a time. Also, you can move twice in an IP by spending a complex action to do nothing but move in that IP (effectively giving up an IP). Yes, this does let charactwers with IP boosting effects move (a bit) faster- at most, you could move twice as fast as normal, if you somehow had actions in all 5 IPs.
Any glaring problems with these house rules?

[Stahlseele]

The Maximum is 4.
5 for Technomancers and Hackers in full VR with certain special things in their belonging.

[Neraph]

IP-enhancing materials are not cumulative - only the highest applies. Therefore, spending Edge to gain an IP is only for un-augmented people who are not on one of the many available drugs out there that add IPs.

The effect on movement is still "you move X meters in one CT." You then need to divide the distance you are moving by the number of IPs you have to determine your movement per IP.

No, you cannot get up to 5 IPs using Edge. You may only get 5 IPs using a Simsense Booster and Simsense Accelerator in Hot Sim VR.

Also, you can move twice in an IP by spending a complex action to do nothing but move in that IP (effectively giving up an IP).

Where is that from?

[Mongoose]

So if you have, say, the Adept Power "Improved Reflexes, level 3", you simply can not spend edge to gain an extra IP, because you already have 4?

[Mongoose]

Also, you can move twice in an IP by spending a complex action to do nothing but move in that IP (effectively giving up an IP).

Where is that from?

Its from the house rules I was considering, as are the entire last two paragraphs of my initial post post.

[Stahlseele]

So if you have, say, the Adept Power "Improved Reflexes, level 3", you simply can not spend edge to gain an extra IP, because you already have 4?

oh yes, you can.
but you will spend the edge for nothing, because you still stay on your 4 passes.
just like doing drugs. you can take them, you will get all the other benefits and problems of the drugs.
but not the additional IP.

[Karoline]

Is there a hard maximum to the number of IPs a character can have?
What if they are at this maximum (say from implants / magic) and spend edge for another IP? Or if they take drgugs that grant extra IPs?
Would drugs that grant extra IPs stack with other drugs (such as using both Jazz and Cram) and / or with implants / magic?

And lastly, at what point do you declare spending edge for an extra IP? Any time during the turn? Since movment is tied to the number of IPs in a turn, what effect does this have on movment?

This last question has prompted me to consider a few house rules. First, all turns are treated as having 5 IPs. You can move in all 5, but can only act in as many as you'd normally be able to. And yes, you can get up to 5, but only by using edge. You could get to 4 with implants / magic / drugs, but can only benefit from one drug at a time. Also, you can move twice in an IP by spending a complex action to do nothing but move in that IP (effectively giving up an IP). Yes, this does let charactwers with IP boosting effects move (a bit) faster- at most, you could move twice as fast as normal, if you somehow had actions in all 5 IPs.
Any glaring problems with these house rules?

Some big problems include the fact that a slightly cybered person can easily outrun a world class runner without really trying. I do like the 'divide movement into IPs even if you don't have multiple IPs' because otherwise you run into the problem of someone with 1 IP moving 25m in 1 IP, while someone with 4 IPs only moves 6.25m in that same IP. This means that closing into melee combat is way more effective with only 1 IP, which never made alot of sense to me.

[Neraph]

Some big problems include the fact that a slightly cybered person can easily outrun a world class runner without really trying. I do like the 'divide movement into IPs even if you don't have multiple IPs' because otherwise you run into the problem of someone with 1 IP moving 25m in 1 IP, while someone with 4 IPs only moves 6.25m in that same IP. This means that closing into melee combat is way more effective with only 1 IP, which never made alot of sense to me.

Just because you are capable of assessing and acting to external stimuli much more efficiently than the average person does not make your legs move faster.

[Warlordtheft]

The problem with the movement and IP's is that in that 1 IP person moves faster than a 4IP person would and could charge him from 25m away and not get hosed down by all 4IPs.

[JoelHalpern]

Neraph, the problem is that, by the rules, if you have multiple IPs you get multiple running tests. Thus, your effective speed does get faster. Enough faster to be quite noticeable for human-sized figures.

Joel

PS: The oddity of being able to cover more ground in 1IP if one has only 1IP did strike me before.
Another related oddity is suppressive fire. If you have one IP, you spend it, and you cover the area for the entire turn, affecting fast characters in the area of effect every time they get an IP. For the same 10 bullets.

[Neraph]

The problem with the movement and IP's is that in that 1 IP person moves faster than a 4IP person would and could charge him from 25m away and not get hosed down by all 4IPs.

No, he "appears" to move faster. They move the same amount, but the person with only 1 IP gets to act fully on the first IP, including reacting to his total movement taken.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

By RAW, Movement is per Combat Turn, and maintained until the next Action Phase - and movement is diveded by the number of passes in that turn.

So Joe Average won't run his full movement in the first pass if there are more passes.

[The Jake]

I can't remember the math but going from memory, we found that a human with STR 9 AGI 9 could move at 100km/hr (short distances obviously).

- J.

[Ol' Scratch]

Note that one really useful house rule is that you can simply limit the movement rate per Combat Turn and don't worry about dividing it evenly between all the passes. Instead, you can split it up however you like; all in one pass, some in one and most in another, or none at all. Whatever you need to get the job done in your eyes.

Like everything else, initiative passes are an abstraction. Since passes are also front loaded, meaning everyone gets to use one after the other at the beginning of a turn regardless of how reactive anyone is, there's no reason at all that the guy with only one pass should be able to move further before acting than you can, especially when getting to the destination is important for whatever reason. This house rule doesn't give you extra speed. It just opens the abstract nature of the rules up to movement which is strangely restrictive.

If someone has an issue with the "realsm" of that, just remind them that by the same rules, the guy with a higher reaction also somehow gets the ability to talk super fast. You get to speak one full sentence or phrase per Free Action, and you can have upwards of three Free Actions per pass. That allows someone with 4 passes to get 12 full sentences off. In just three seconds. And yes, I know the rules say GMs should watch out for goofiness like that, but it demonstrates just how abstract the whole Combat Turn thing is. Movement shouldn't be any different.

[Tsuul]

By RAW, Movement is per Combat Turn, and maintained until the next Action Phase - and movement is diveded by the number of passes in that turn.

So Joe Average won't run his full movement in the first pass if there are more passes.

QFT / +1

Last paragraph pg 148 SR4A 'Movement'

[Ascalaphus]

Or you limit the amount of actions people can spend on running. You could only take a Sprint action during any one of your initiative passes, but not necessarily the first one, for example.

But yeah, it's an abstraction of "reality."

IP stacking: what about Wired Reflexes 1 and Edge? It seems unfair if you can't get a 3rd pass that way.. (But I agree a 5th is right out.)

[Stahlseele]

As long as you are below 4, you can spend edge and gain one additional IP up to 4 IP's.
When you are at 3 IP's, you can get one and go up to 4. If you are at 4 allready, you can spend edge and gain NOTHING.

[Karoline]

Or you just read the rules and a person with 4 IP moves the exact same distance as someone with 1 IP in a single combat turn.

I'm going to start a new thread on this particular issue, since it seems everyone on DS is incapable of reading the rules for this.

[Mongoose]

IP stacking: what about Wired Reflexes 1 and Edge? It seems unfair if you can't get a 3rd pass that way..

That's basically what prompted me to ask about it. I was looking at Move By Wire and realized a starting character can only get MBW1, for one extra initiaitve pass, while Wired 2 and various level 3 magical boosts are also allowed to starting characters. And realistically, how often is a character in play EVER gonna upgrade from MBW1 to MBW2? Sure, MBW1 offers a few other (minor) benefits, but it kinda looks like a dud if you can't EVER get more than 2 IPS because you had it put in.

[Karoline]

That's basically what prompted me to ask about it. I was looking at Move By Wire and realized a starting character can only get MBW1, for one extra initiaitve pass, while Wired 2 and various level 3 magical boosts are also allowed to starting characters. And realistically, how often is a character in play EVER gonna upgrade from MBW1 to MBW2? Sure, MBW1 offers a few other (minor) benefits, but it kinda looks like a dud if you can't EVER get more than 2 IPS because you had it put in.

Well, you can get more than 2IPs, but it can't be from something that only gives you +1 IP. You could get an improved reflexes spell that gives +2 IP and that would get you 3IP total.

I'm not sure about the edge stacking or not. I agree that it seems like it should, because it never mentions 'Only works if you only have a single IP' and edge tends to break the rules for the game, in this case the rule that IPs from different sources don't stack.

[crizh]

IP-enhancing materials are not cumulative - only the highest applies.

I am not sure I can find any support for that statement anywhere in the rules.

Many, many IP enhancers have extensive rules on what they don't stack with but I have found no rules to suggest that one cannot take Jazz and Kamikaze followed up with a nice Force 2 Increase Reflexes for a grand total of 4 IP's.

[Karoline]

I am not sure I can find any support for that statement anywhere in the rules.

Many, many IP enhancers have extensive rules on what they don't stack with but I have found no rules to suggest that one cannot take Jazz and Kamikaze followed up with a nice Force 2 Increase Reflexes for a grand total of 4 IP's.

I'm fairly sure I've seen the rule somewhere before. Couldn't tell you where exactly though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

It's not a general, it's a specific rule. For example "Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers."

It's intention is to keep, say, an adept from getting Improved Reflexes 1 and Wired Reflexes 1. Personally, I consider temporary boosts to be an exception. Blowing Edge, popping a drug, etc. are all fine in my book whether you have enhanced reflexes or not. They all come at a price that's greater than the bonus they provide. Well, unless you're in a game where they refresh Edge every fight or something. Either way, the limit of 4 IPs keeps any abuses in check and allows people who did bother to use their resources to improve their reflexes to keep their advantage if they so desire even when some schmuck decides to go the cheap way.

[Neraph]

That's basically what prompted me to ask about it. I was looking at Move By Wire and realized a starting character can only get MBW1, for one extra initiaitve pass, while Wired 2 and various level 3 magical boosts are also allowed to starting characters. And realistically, how often is a character in play EVER gonna upgrade from MBW1 to MBW2? Sure, MBW1 offers a few other (minor) benefits, but it kinda looks like a dud if you can't EVER get more than 2 IPS because you had it put in.

You're not supposted to start with MBW at all, although you can get Alpha-grade MBW 2 with a Restricted Gear IIRC. You're supposted to start with Wired Reflexes, possibly a Reaction Enhancer, and maybe skillwires, then "upgrade" them in-game for MBW, which would take not only the Essence hole left from removing the aforementioned 'ware, but duplicate their bonuses as well (and give you a little extra kick).