Hacker, Rigger, or Technomancer. (lots of questions), If you are the only tech in the group, which would do a better job? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Justin]

Is it just me, or does no one really get super excited about hackers, riggers, and technomancers? I see posts about magic or street samurais all the time. Adepts too. But where is the love for the techies?

I have a new game starting soon, with five players (including myself) and of course a GM. I don't know what two of the other players will be playing, or what role they want to cover for the group. I've drafted up one character idea, full with a character sheet and backstory (A Dryad, who is a dedicated summoner. Have a full history, and tons of quirks-- should be fun to play)... But as things stand, no one has chosen to play a hacker, technomancer, or rigger of any sort. I think it would be fun to play a tech-geek or gear-head character, and if the other two undecided players in my group don't want to cover a tech role, I think I might put my current mage on hold, and play a tech guy instead. I'm actually pretty excited about it, and want to prepare a character sheet.

So, assuming a group only has one go-to tech guy-- What would perform their role better? What is the best way to go about it? Should I go with a mundane hacker who dabbles in rigging? A hacker who is chromed up, using cyber-limbs to boost his low Strength, Agility, and Body? A technomancer?

Though I've seen quite a few postings on creative ways for hackers to do things, I haven't seen much of a clear guide on what is needed to create an effective hacking character (Obviously an amazing commlink decked out with high rating programs). What qualities are best to choose?

What about building an effective Technomancer? Any other qualities that are great at creation for them? Would they be as good, or better than a mundane hacker with access to lots of money?

Oh, and... How are AI as player characters? Can they do really well too? Or is it too limiting?

[Thanee]

There are no posts about hackers/technomancers and the likes?

Are you using another forum than this, usually? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Though, yeah, awakened characters are quite popular.

As for your actual question... I don't think a dedicated rigger is really needed. A hacker is good, and an appropriately high skill for the B&E stuff (Logic/Hardware mostly) is definitely useful as well. No experience with technomancers myself, but I think a hacker would be easier to fill in a more general role.

So, I would go with a hacker, who has a car and can drive it, and maybe a couple drones for surveillance (not for combat, that requires too many resources, that you need otherwise). It's certainly possible to be decent in combat yourself as well (not a fully chromes out sam, but better than a typical security guard for sure).

Bye
Thanee

[Justin]

There are no posts about hackers/technomancers and the likes?

Are you using another forum than this, usually? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Bye
Thanee

Most of the posts I have seen have been on character improvement, or various other questions. Not so much on Chargen. I suppose I can search back a lot further-- but I didn't see any posts specific to this yet.

[Ol' Scratch]

Between a Hacker and a Technomancer, your best bet if you're worried about your stats at character creation is the Hacker. You'll have better scores across the board, access to better implants that have zero negative impact on your abilities, and lots of resources leftover to buy a swanky commlink and programming suites. Technomancers are better specialists and have unlimited growth capabilities, but it requires quite an investment of Karma to get them there down the road. Especially if you consider that the Hacker is earning the same amount of Karma and using that to improve his abilities, too. Plus the Hacker can use all that cash to tweak his programs and commlink, whereas the Technomancer doesn't have quite as much use for cash.

Since a Rigger is just a specialist, the same holds true for the most part. The Hacker will have more resources available at the start of play to have pimped out drones and vehicles while the Technomancer will have to make sacrifices to match that. In the long run, however, the Technomancer will have more cash available to focus on his drones and vehicles while the Hacker has to worry about his commlink and programs as well.

Summary: Hacker if you just want to focus on the early game, Technomancer if you're a big picture kinda guy. Riggers are viable as both and the same holds true. Keep in mind that both Hackers and Technomancers can do the job just fine without specializing in it, so you don't have to be a dedicated Rigger to fill the role of one.

That said, if you're going to be the only "tech guy" I'd recommend going Hacker for all the reasons mentioned above. You'll have the BPs to not only become a badass hacker in the Matrix, but you'll be able to pick up the various tech skills that will facilitate both you and your team. Skills like Hardware to crack maglocks, Armorer to tweak weapons and armor, the various Mechanics so you can work on drones and vehicles, and Pilot skills so you can rig them first hand. You can also afford most of the nice implants that make you really stand out next to an early Technomancer.

If you're in it for the long haul and think the game will last, a Technomancer definitely has all the potential, though. It just takes a really long time to catch up and then surpass the Hacker. But when you do, the sky's the limit.

[Justin]

Thanks Doc. This was actually exactly the sort of thing I was trying to figure out.

There seems to be more "cool stuff" a technomancer can do-- and I think this game is going to last for a while. From what I can tell of the GM, cash isn't going to be nearly as limiting a factor as karma... But the eventual limit on growth of a hacker kind of bothers me. If I invest all of my karma specifically into being a better technomancer, I guess I can spend all my cash on new toys (read: drones and cars) for me to interact with the meat world directly with.

Plus, I think if I have an optimized hacker who is near max, right at creation in terms of matrix ability-- I think my GM might simply throw really hard stuff at me right away. It might be better to gradually show improvement as a technomancer in this respect, because if I become really good eventually, it won't be as shocking as having it happen all at once (if that makes sense).

Anyone have a good understanding of what makes a good technomancer then? Qualities at creation? Which attributes I need the most? My knowlege of technomancers is the fuzziest of any character type-- but they seem fun.

[Justin]

But the idea of a gear-head hacker/rigger, who tinkers even with the 'ware on his own body.. It seems fun too. Wouldn't have to worry much about essence, and I could get all sorts of skillwires.

[Ascalaphus]

My gut says technomancer; sprites and threading make you very flexible. If you have to cover all the bases yourself, that's what I'd pick.

It's a question of taste, too. I wanted to play a very science-oriented hacking character, so in the end I took a regular hacker. I like tools and implants. And the somewhat fuzzy intuitive feel of the technomancer didn't work so well with that.

The big split is this:
* Technomancers have Sprites, which are powerful, and Threading, which is also versatile.
* Hackers can throw money at problems, and get to use implants, which can also be powerful (but expensive).

Riggers are rather different than those two; they're rather on the hardware side. You solve your differences with drone-mounted guns instead of cybercombat. It's doable to dabble in rigging, but dabbling in hacking is a bad idea; you need to be really specialized to have a good success rate.

[hahnsoo]

It may also depend on the details and the flavor of the campaign overall. Technomancers are the "new mages/elves/orks" in terms of discrimination, and they are widely feared and misunderstood in developed nations. They are often conflated with other Matrix issues (Those terrorist AIs, they must be a technomancer thing! The Crash 2.0 was caused by Technomancers. They are barely metahuman, those robot animals.) in public opinion, although it helps that Evo and Horizon are "on their side" for now. Some GMs may play up this aspect, while others will ignore it. My current technomancer barely understands his technomancer abilities, and mostly sees them as a tool for larceny rather than a magic-like gift.

If you want to play a more cerebral character, a true "techie", a regular hacker might be up your alley. If you are the ONLY techie in the group, then it's probably better to be a hacker due to the fact that technomancers are huge Karma black holes, like initiate-grade mages. You can use that Karma to develop yourself and broaden your skills, rather than continually burning Karma on further specialization.

[Justin]

It may also depend on the details and the flavor of the campaign overall. Technomancers are the "new mages/elves/orks" in terms of discrimination, and they are widely feared and misunderstood in developed nations. They are often conflated with other Matrix issues (Those terrorist AIs, they must be a technomancer thing! The Crash 2.0 was caused by Technomancers. They are barely metahuman, those robot animals.) in public opinion, although it helps that Evo and Horizon are "on their side" for now. Some GMs may play up this aspect, while others will ignore it. My current technomancer barely understands his technomancer abilities, and mostly sees them as a tool for larceny rather than a magic-like gift.

If you want to play a more cerebral character, a true "techie", a regular hacker might be up your alley. If you are the ONLY techie in the group, then it's probably better to be a hacker due to the fact that technomancers are huge Karma black holes, like initiate-grade mages. You can use that Karma to develop yourself and broaden your skills, rather than continually burning Karma on further specialization.

I'm not terribly worried about the character being a true "techie". My main concerns are to make sure that that my group is protected from hackers, to be able to take out drones and security systems we come across, and to get the data we need. Not really too concerned with the theory behind how he does it-- both hackers and technomancers have pretty cool flavor points. I just want to be a good team player, who is really good at his job.

[The Jake]

If you only have one spot a hacker will go further. Cyber + skills will mean he/she is very well rounded.

- J.

[Ol' Scratch]

Yeah, you want a Hacker for sure. They are, without a doubt, the techie generalist. They do everything really well.

[Cthulhudreams]

It's entirely arbitary and depends on how your GM thinks the rules work. If you go by the rules in the book, the best riggers are

Technomancers > Riggers > Others

and the best hackers are

Others > Technomancers > Hackers > Riggers.

The reason the characters get no love is that the rules are terrible, and what your GM thinks the rules are will have only a limited association with what the rules in the book say. For example, technomancers can summon abusive spirits to get truly dumb gunnery pools out of drones. Is this okay? It might not be. It's not even clear that it works in the first place. What about agents? The fact that any hacker can hack into Zurich orbital and probably won't set of an alert if he spends a week doing it. How does the wifi matrix work in your game?

Given the number of variables that boil down to GM interpretation, it's totally pointless trying to discuss hackers in the abstract because Game A, Game B and Game C all have different matrix houserules because the GMs universally don't apply the rules that are written down in the actual book.

[Justin]

It's entirely arbitary and depends on how your GM thinks the rules work. If you go by the rules in the book, the best riggers are

Technomancers > Riggers > Others

and the best hackers are

Others > Technomancers > Hackers > Riggers.

The reason the characters get no love is that the rules are terrible, and what your GM thinks the rules are will have only a limited association with what the rules in the book say. For example, technomancers can summon abusive spirits to get truly dumb gunnery pools out of drones. Is this okay? It might not be. It's not even clear that it works in the first place. What about agents? The fact that any hacker can hack into Zurich orbital and probably won't set of an alert if he spends a week doing it. How does the wifi matrix work in your game?

Given the number of variables that boil down to GM interpretation, it's totally pointless trying to discuss hackers in the abstract because Game A, Game B and Game C all have different matrix houserules because the GMs universally don't apply the rules that are written down in the actual book.

Well, my GM has played Shadowrun a few times in previous versions. But not a lot in depth. Our entire group is new to the game. Some members have played a couple sessions of previous editions in the past-- but I'm totally new. So both the GM and myself are studying the matrix rules in depth on our own, trying to make sense of it, learning as we go.

I haven't had much of a chance to see how he thinks things work yet. So far, everything is pretty RAW. Not a lot of house rules-- yet at least.

[Cthulhudreams]

I will bet you 10 bucks that while you may think you're running the matrix by the RAW you won't actually be doing that. Mostly because the rules make little sense in many well documented places. So as a result, people guess what they think the rules say and run that, resulting in hundreds of games that 'are pretty close to RAW' that are all completely different in terms of the matrix.

Anyway, my biggest piece of advice is if you are making the terrible mistake of making a hacker, you need to sit down with your GM and ask him how he thinks it works. Then from that, you can make a character.

[Red-ROM]

1- being a dedicated hacker takes like 200BP's, which leaves plenty of room to start something else of use.

2-what makes a rigger different? A VCR, piloting skills, and mechanic skills. he can also biuld/buy drones for all different scenarios. he also seems the mosta techie to me.

3-technomancers are the "magical" equivelant of above. Slower to develope, better in the end.

I'd go with a hacker that has a VCR and grow from there

[Kumo]

Well, my GM has played Shadowrun a few times in previous versions. But not a lot in depth. Our entire group is new to the game. Some members have played a couple sessions of previous editions in the past-- but I'm totally new. So both the GM and myself are studying the matrix rules in depth on our own, trying to make sense of it, learning as we go.

You have to know how your GM uses Matrix rules. Maybe ask him for a quick solo session for your PC, just to see how the rules work and to test PC's abilities - I mean some easy Matrix run, like supporting a shadowteam of NPCs. That should be also a good idea for other players - combat characters can test their muscles on some cheap gangers or Humanis goons, for example. I mean 1-hour mini-sessions.

[Justin]

You have to know how your GM uses Matrix rules. Maybe ask him for a quick solo session for your PC, just to see how the rules work and to test PC's abilities - I mean some easy Matrix run, like supporting a shadowteam of NPCs. That should be also a good idea for other players - combat characters can test their muscles on some cheap gangers or Humanis goons, for example. I mean 1-hour mini-sessions.

I'll ask him to do that. But first I need to design a character.

[etherial]

I don't have much to add on the relative usefulness of the 3, since a) I've never played SR4 and b) we always used NPC deckers and c) I'm not sure I've ever met an Otaku, BUT

When I mentioned what some of the basic character types were, my fiancée went totally and completely squee over the Rigger. She *loves* the idea and can hardly wait until she plays one.

[Ol' Scratch]

I don't blame her, it's one of my favorite concepts in the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I just can't ever seem to make one that I like though. It's very odd.

[gtjormungand]

Riggers can be built to do all the hacker actions rather easily and still have enough money (using the born rich quality from the Runners' Companion) to get a great set of drones and a vehicle.

[Johnny B. Good]

Technomancers can be total matrix monsters, thanks to echoes, limitless program levels, and sprites. But to be such a beast at the matrix through a technomancer, it takes a whoooooole lot of karma, which means that you'll have less to spend on other aspects of your character. The cons to technomancers are that implants reduce your resonance, and that you can't just throw money at your hacking problems. But while most of your karma will be put to either stat or complex form upgrades, you will have a whole lot nuyen to spend on rigging. It's mix-and-match really.

[Marwynn]

If you're into Sprites as a Technomancer don't overlook the Codeslinger quality. Compile (or Register) Sprite is a Matrix action, so you have a +1 on them all. Worth the 10 BP I think.

Analytical Mind is good and of course Paragon.

I'm still trying to figure out how to play TMs well. But thankfully Unwired has greatly expanded their capabilities (to somewhat very powerful levels). It also lets you choose your own Fading attribute, so your TM doesn't need to have a high Logic. You can very well be some sorta Face/TM but that eats up a whole lot of Karma too.

TMs are fun, I voted for them. But a Hacker-Rigger is pretty powerful, I'd say they're more effective even if I prefer the TM for style purposes.

[Fezig]

In my opinion the first thing you ought to do is not distinguish rigger as its own full fledged roll since you are the be all end all of tech for your group. Essentially you are choosing to be a Hacker or a Technomancer, and from there you may decide to delve into rigging to a lesser or greater extent.

[Jaid]

i will add one thing:

it isn't entirely true that technomancers start off slower than hackers. you can start off with a technomancer who is an extremely effective hacker, competitive in hacking duties in every way.

what you can't do is start off with a technomancer who is as good or better than a hacker while also being much more than dead weight in any other scenario.

but really, with proper use of threading and sprites right out of the gate, you can do some ridiculous stuff as a technomancer. just don't expect to be able to win a fistfight vs an armless 8-year old child or anything like that.

[Cthulhudreams]

I'll ask him to do that. But first I need to design a character.

You need to do it the other way around. There are literally a dozen different pieces of skills, abilities and equipment that will range between 'Critical' and 'A waste of BP that you are not even allowed to use' depending on how the GM thinks the matrix might work.

Don't do a full adventure - just pull the sample character out of the book and ask the GM how hacking a node works, and take note of restrictions on 'AR' 'Agents' 'Matrix Perception' 'Diagnose Device(?)' for starters.