Hacker, Rigger, or Technomancer. (lots of questions), If you are the only tech in the group, which would do a better job? Options

[The Jake]

but really, with proper use of threading and sprites right out of the gate, you can do some ridiculous stuff as a technomancer. just don't expect to be able to win a fistfight vs an armless 8-year old child or anything like that.

ROFL. I laughed aloud because its true.

I was playing around with a troll TM to see if I could build one that would be decent in unarmed combat once I invest in the right echoes. In short -- no, it doesn't work.

- J.

[etherial]

ROFL. I laughed aloud because its true.

As did I. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jericho Alar]

The matrix rules aren't *that* hard; really!

They are incredibly misunderstood and misapplied though. Although some groups remove/alter intentionally; and others just avoid some of the contradictions / degeneracies present in the RAW rather than houseruling around them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you're into Sprites as a Technomancer don't overlook the Codeslinger quality. Compile (or Register) Sprite is a Matrix action, so you have a +1 on them all. Worth the 10 BP I think.

Analytical Mind is good and of course Paragon.

I'm still trying to figure out how to play TMs well. But thankfully Unwired has greatly expanded their capabilities (to somewhat very powerful levels). It also lets you choose your own Fading attribute, so your TM doesn't need to have a high Logic. You can very well be some sorta Face/TM but that eats up a whole lot of Karma too.

TMs are fun, I voted for them. But a Hacker-Rigger is pretty powerful, I'd say they're more effective even if I prefer the TM for style purposes.

Hackers are very powerful if developed well... Technomancers can be awesome, but you are exactly right, it takes a LOT of Karma to do so...

And the Technomancer for Style Points alone is awesome in my opinion...

Keep the Faith

[Cthulhudreams]

Please be aware that a number of sprites are unable to take the matrix perception action, that makes them in turn unable to engage with the matrix. You need house ruling to make some sprites capable of perceiving icons if you go down this route.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Please be aware that a number of sprites are unable to take the matrix perception action, that makes them in turn unable to engage with the matrix. You need house ruling to make some sprites capable of perceiving icons if you go down this route.

Or just don't use those particular sprites for things that would require such actions... And remember, you do not need to make a perception (Matrix or otherwise) test for things that are considered obvious... Some Icons are obvious and need no roll to perceive, such as those that are attacking you...

Keep the Faith

[Cthulhudreams]

While you may hold that interpretation, it is not stated in the book. The book does certainly state under the matrix perception action that you need to roll it to render any icon, and you need to have rendered the icon before you can engage with it - which is a precondition to taking any action on a node.

So you need to be able to pass a matrix perception check to do anything on a node. Which means that a sprite that cannot pass a matrix perception check is, infact, completely useless.

Now, you may elect to house rule around it and thus create a use for crack sprites (which, incidentally still need the required skills with your house rule, because decrypted pay data may not be obvious so your proposed interpretation still leaves them without a use), but you need to make sure this is the case up front.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

While you may hold that interpretation, it is not stated in the book. The book does certainly state under the matrix perception action that you need to roll it to render any icon, and you need to have rendered the icon before you can engage with it - which is a precondition to taking any action on a node.

So you need to be able to pass a matrix perception check to do anything on a node. Which means that a sprite that cannot pass a matrix perception check is, infact, completely useless.

Now, you may elect to house rule around it and thus create a use for crack sprites (which, incidentally still need the required skills with your house rule, because decrypted pay data may not be obvious so your proposed interpretation still leaves them without a use), but you need to make sure this is the case up front.

I can see that interpretation, if it actually worked that way... Do you have a page reference, as I must have missed that...

From what I am reading, if you want SPECIFIC information, you must make a Matrix perception Test... for each net hit you may ask for one piece of information about the object. It is not necessary to do so to interact with the object in any way other than to ferret out any non-obvious specific information; and if you do not want to make such a test, the Analyze Program, in concert with your Computer Skill, can be set to automatically perform this function for you, at which point the GM rolls your test in secret and informs you of the results so you do not have to worry about such things... The only real time that this becomes an issue is if the Icon is using Stealth Programs, at which point the Matrix perception test becomes opposed... and if you do not detect them, then they fade into the matrix background noise... See page 228, SR4A

Now as for the Crack Sprite... it has both the Analyze CF and a Computer Skill, so it is capable of making a Matrix perception Test with no difficulty, and in fact, the only Sprite not capable of performing such tasks are the Tank Sprites, because they do not need it, as they tend to not Analyze Things, just break them, so I am unsure of where you are getting your interpretation from...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

[Cthulhudreams]

will do when I get home! Btw: I'm pretty sure you need a test to tell how many icons there are in the node, and the specific infomation example given is 'what is it'

[Cthulhudreams]

Right I checked. First up, needing the matrix perception test. The list of things that are on the list of specific infomation you can request includes fundamental infomation such as "type"

If you don't know if it is a file, user, agent, IC or program, you don't know anything useful. You cannot meaningfully interact with a node until you've gone through every ARO icon and found out if this is the droid/file/on button you are looking for. Soo...

From what I am reading, if you want SPECIFIC information, you must make a Matrix perception Test... for each net hit you may ask for one piece of information about the object. It is not necessary to do so to interact with the object in any way other than to ferret out any non-obvious specific information;

This is wrong.

However, I will concede the point about sprites. They've added the computer skill to all sprites, but this is not reflected in the changelog from SR4 to SR4A. Which is a great coverup of their dopey mistake the first time I will admit, but yes it is fixed in SR4A. If you're using SR4, you need to make this change yourself as it's not in the SR4A changelog.

[Sengir]

Right I checked. First up, needing the matrix perception test. The list of things that are on the list of specific infomation you can request includes fundamental infomation such as "type"

Real-world perception tests also include some fundamental things, like noticing that something exists at all. So by your logic a character without perception skill would be in a constant state of sensory deprivation, or at least completely unable to gain any information from the input of his senses (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Petrie_SMG]

Hacker over Technomancer over Rigger. Hackers can use cyberware or bioware more easily, so they can make themselves half-decent in a few other areas as well.

[Cthulhudreams]

Real-world perception tests also include some fundamental things, like noticing that something exists at all. So by your logic a character without perception skill would be in a constant state of sensory deprivation, or at least completely unable to gain any information from the input of his senses (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hey, I didn't write the rules. There is nothing in the matrix perception section that talks about 'obvious'

[DWC]

With the flexibility of Sprites, particularly Machine and Crack sprites, technomancers win. Find a stream you like that gives you the sprites you need, focus completely on compiling and registering, and win the internet. Hackers can dabble at rigging, riggers can dabble at hacking, but TMs can do both pretty easily.

[Sengir]

Hey, I didn't write the rules. There is nothing in the matrix perception section that talks about 'obvious'

...and in real world perception tests, something obvious needs one hit. So if you say "anything that's in the perception test table cannot be discerned without a perception test", that also has to be true for obvious, large, and loud information...



As for the topic, see DWC.

[Cthulhudreams]

Wait so you're saying that the matrix rules are lying to you about what you need to do? It even explictly says it needs a simple action to do so?

[WyldKnight]

With the flexibility of Sprites, particularly Machine and Crack sprites, technomancers win. Find a stream you like that gives you the sprites you need, focus completely on compiling and registering, and win the internet. Hackers can dabble at rigging, riggers can dabble at hacking, but TMs can do both pretty easily.

Ok this confuses me a bit. I wanted to make a Dronomancer but I couldn't find how sprites would make use of the softs needed to fight in a drone since they use complex forms, not programs. It says machine sprites only get, and Im doing this from memory mind you, something like 1 soft and then another every 3 rating points right? Does that basically mean instead of having one agent with all the needed softs (or at least most of them) I need to divide the work among three or so sprites?

[Octopiii]

Yes. Plus, sending the sprite off into the node without your persona in it counts as a remote service, so any command given will either take up all of your tasks or you will need to have the sprite registered. This is not much more optimal than simply giving a drone an autosoft and relying on its pilot program.

There is a better way to do control drones as a TM. Get the Command CF at 6, then have your registered machine sprite Assist Operation, adding its rating to your dp. Throw in codeslinger: control device, your + 2 bonus for operating in hot sim VR, and you can throw some pretty nasty amounts of dice without ever leaving the van. This all with only having a skill of 1 in the associated skill and a specialization in remote operations.

Command cf 6 + 6 (Assist Operation)+ 2 Codeslinger + 2 Hot Sim + 1 Skill + 2 specialization = 19 dice, which you will generally use to shoot things with. Note it doesn't even need to be a drone you're commanding- have your allies give you access rights to their guns, and do the same thing.

Sprites, unlike spirits, really need to be registered to be useful.

EDIT: I suppose you could put your persona in the drone as well (your only limit on how many personas you have active in the matrix is your subscription limit), but then you'd be risking feedback. It'd be a way to have a sprite controlling a drone without it being registered, I suppose. In that case, a rating 6 machine sprite would be throwing 12 dice at whatever task you asked it to via the drone. "Control this drone according to my wishes" is probably to be a vague to be a task; "Kill my opponents" would probably apply to a group of guards, however.

[Tech_Rat]

I ran a TM right out of the gate, so I may be a tad bit biased. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Really, using a 400BP system, I made a strong TM in the hacking area. ~12+ dice to use for hacking on day one. He was also against killing. So he had a paintball gun filled with DMSO'ed paralysis agents. His dice pool for shooting? I think it was 6 to start. I had a small set of skills in rigging and piloting, about three dice each, since in game, his sister[my roomie out of game] was a rigger, drone and vehicle specialist. Recommendations for a TM would be Codeslinger[+2 dice to any matrix action of your choice] Hacking with a specialization in something[mine was exploit]. Grab a combat skill, and a couple ranks in pilot groundcraft. If you also toy with drones, get "more than metahuman", allows you to jump in and out as a free action. Later on, when you submerge, I'd recommend getting the skinlink echo, overclock echo, and the neurofilter echo. Multi processing, swap, immersion, and e-sensing are all things you may want to take a look at.

[Falconer]

You're missing an option... I vote for hacking adept.

Also, decker/riggers are almost the same thing now (not a bad thing, just a matter of picks in cyber... a rigger will go for the control rig, while a decker will go for the encephalon). A rigger will have a lot more autosofts, and drone specific softwares.


Granted it's one of those concepts I've been wanting to play forever but never get a chance to. (party needs a mage badly etc...). But a lot of the adept powers like eidetic memory, multi-tasking (no AR spam zone!), technical adept (hard to get skill mod bonus dice, over the basic program + skill grade). But you have to admit it's a far cry from the more normal, bio'ed/cyber'ed ninja/gunfu phys ad.


Technomancers have some interesting tricks available to them as well, but I'd not recommend that to someone new to it as they tend to be a bit harder to pull off.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Real-world perception tests also include some fundamental things, like noticing that something exists at all. So by your logic a character without perception skill would be in a constant state of sensory deprivation, or at least completely unable to gain any information from the input of his senses (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This cannot be emphasized enough... Obvious things need no roll... that is why they are Obvious...

And again, as a character, you never have to roll Matrix perception, You can relegate it to an automatic occurrence, and just let the GM make those decisions... says so right in the book...

Keep the Faith

[Cthulhudreams]

Sure, but the table explicitly states that you have to spend a simple action and roll dice to find out what the type of an icon is.

If you don't want to do that, that's fine, but it is a houserule.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure, but the table explicitly states that you have to spend a simple action and roll dice to find out what the type of an icon is.

If you don't want to do that, that's fine, but it is a houserule.

My Point is that if the Icon Attacks you, you enter cybercombat, no need to identify it if you don't want to... and I am not using a house rule... The book explicitly states that you can just have your analyze program go to automatic, in which case, the character does not need to actually spend any of his actions to try to perceive, he can go about his hacking business... the analyze program will perform the functions for him and update him on its findings... not a house rule, it is RAW...

If you want to actually garner details about the icons in the system, then yes, you will need to make a Matrix Perception Tesat, but it is not a requirement for the Character to do so... hell, even a high end Agent will probably do better at Matrix perception rolls than the character would do in most circumstances...

Keep the Faith

[The Jake]

With the flexibility of Sprites, particularly Machine and Crack sprites, technomancers win. Find a stream you like that gives you the sprites you need, focus completely on compiling and registering, and win the internet. Hackers can dabble at rigging, riggers can dabble at hacking, but TMs can do both pretty easily.

Sprites aren't so smart they can replace a human.

- J.

[Jaid]

Ok this confuses me a bit. I wanted to make a Dronomancer but I couldn't find how sprites would make use of the softs needed to fight in a drone since they use complex forms, not programs. It says machine sprites only get, and Im doing this from memory mind you, something like 1 soft and then another every 3 rating points right? Does that basically mean instead of having one agent with all the needed softs (or at least most of them) I need to divide the work among three or so sprites?

Yes. Plus, sending the sprite off into the node without your persona in it counts as a remote service, so any command given will either take up all of your tasks or you will need to have the sprite registered. This is not much more optimal than simply giving a drone an autosoft and relying on its pilot program.

actually, with a sufficiently high rating sprite (about rating 9) you'll have a pretty reasonable dicepool even on stuff you have to default on, and you'll have exceptional dicepools for three specific areas with that sprite. if you're looking at about rating 6 or less, you may be better off using regular pilots.

also, machine sprites also have the command CF. as such, they can remote control stuff from your node just like you can... so you need not put a persona in the drone, and you need not send your one non-registered sprite out of the same node as you and lose all it's extra services.

be aware, however, that while command CF drone controlling has it's good points, it does have a few downsides as well... for example, it is always a complex action to use the control device action. technically, this would mean that you only get to make a defense test if you spend a complex action to go on full defense, though your GM may houserule otherwise (although, if you're running around with an effective attribute for controlling the device in the 20s, your GM may not feel inclined to be so generous =P ) oh, and don't forget to specialise your pilot skills in "remote operation" if you do indeed use the command CF method of controlling sprites.