Shapeshifters and Home Rules Options

[SoyKaf Adict]

According to the book, and of course this being up to the GM, it is possible to begin the game as a Shapeshifter (Fox) with the Shift (Elf) form. In the statistical sense, barring the 70 BP it costs to do so (50 Shapeshift + 30 Elf - 10 large combo), does that truly mean that when in Elf form that before spending attribute points, I begin with Bod: 1, Agi: 4, Rea: 2, Str: 1, Cha: 4, Int: 2, Log: 1, Wil: 1 ?

That's a pretty hefty beginning to be sure, or am I missing something entirely? I mean the racial maximums would be well past the normal rates, but it seems very possible. For 70 BP that ain't so bad.

Anybody have comments? I think I'm breaking the rules... A lot... I need clarification before I continue.

[Glyph]

I assume that you do add together the Attribute bonuses for Fox shapeshifter and Elf, but your numbers are still off. Fox shapeshifters have +1 to Agility, Reaction, and Intuition. So that, added to an elf's bonuses, would result in base Attributes of: Bod: 1, Agi: 3, Rea: 2, Str: 1, Cha: 3, Int: 2, Log: 1, Wil: 1.

[Ol' Scratch]

Actually, no. You'd only gain the attribute limits and abilities of a typical Elf. The last sentence of the "Not Always Quite Human" rule states: "A shapeshifter with a different metatype gains their standard metatype abilities (see Metatype Attribute Table, p. 72, SR4) when in that form."

You're replacing the abilities by using that rule. There's nothing about adding them together (especially since there are no +'s to be added; they're simply ranges). You'd also lose all of the abilities listed on the Shapeshifter Type Attribute Table, including any Enhanced Senses or Reach modifiers, but not things like Regeneration or your Allergy to Silver. The bit about the abilities is arguable, though, as it does say gains, but the attribute ranges are definitely out for the aforementioned reason. It would require a house rule to change them to pluses, of which you could then add together.

[Mordinvan]

Actually, no. You'd only gain the attribute limits and abilities of a typical Elf. The last sentence of the "Not Always Quite Human" rule states: "A shapeshifter with a different metatype gains their standard metatype abilities (see Metatype Attribute Table, p. 72, SR4) when in that form."

You're replacing the abilities by using that rule. There's nothing about adding them together (especially since there are no +'s to be added; they're simply ranges). You'd also lose all of the abilities listed on the Shapeshifter Type Attribute Table, including any Enhanced Senses or Reach modifiers, but not things like Regeneration or your Allergy to Silver. The bit about the abilities is arguable, though, as it does say gains, but the attribute ranges are definitely out for the aforementioned reason. It would require a house rule to change them to pluses, of which you could then add together.

It says 'gain', this is a mathematical statement for addition, and not one of replacement. So their abilities should be combined, and not replaced.

[Glyph]

It's another ambiguously worded rule. You could interpret it either way, but I lean towards my interpretation more than Doc's. Because honestly, why would you bother getting a different metatype than human as your alternate form, if you have to pay more to get your normal shapeshifter bonuses replaced with inferior ones?

[hahnsoo]

It says "gains their standard metatype abilities" in that section. In the table listed, it lists the metatype abilities, and they are not attributes. For example, the table says "Ork Metatype Abilities": Low-Light Vision. You no longer gain +'s to attributes under SR4 rules in standard character creation. You are instead given a base value, and you add to that value. For shapeshifters, this value is under their native form, as listed in the table on p86 of the Runner's Companion.

EDIT: Also, on p 86, it says that "These attribute values apply for both the shapeshifter’s human and metahuman forms." Although I'm fairly certain they mean "animal and (meta)human" forms. *sigh* In any case the Shapeshifter's attribute values remain the same regardless of what form it's in. You can be an extremely strong elf form as a bear shapeshifter or an extremely smart troll form as a fox shapeshifter.

As far as the increased build cost... well, they are supposed to be rare. Rarity influences build point costs in the rest of character creation.

[Ol' Scratch]

It says 'gain', this is a mathematical statement for addition, and not one of replacement. So their abilities should be combined, and not replaced.

Feel free to show me any pluses to be "mathetically" added together. Oh wait, that's right, there aren't any. Oops, your bad.

Once again: Metahumans don't get any bonuses to their attributes whatsoever. They have ranges. An Elf has a minimum Charisma of 3 and a maximum Charisma of 8. They do not have a +2 bonus to Charisma in the rules, so there's no bonuses to add together. All they get according to that rule, at best, are the secondary abilities such as an Elf's Low-Light Vision. House rules notwithstanding.

[Mordinvan]

Feel free to show me any pluses to be "mathetically" added together. Oh wait, that's right, there aren't any. Oops, your bad.


No, not at all. If they meant the attribute values of the shifters were 'replaced' I would expect they would have used that word. Gain however should mean the base attributes are of an elf are added to the base attributes of a shifter. If this is not the case then paying through the nose for the privileged of being hosed on attribute costs would actually be somewhere between kinda, and really over costed.


Once again: Metahumans don't get any bonuses to their attributes whatsoever. They have ranges. An Elf has a minimum Charisma of 3 and a maximum Charisma of 8. They do not have a +2 bonus to Charisma in the rules, so there's no bonuses to add together. All they get according to that rule, at best, are the secondary abilities such as an Elf's Low-Light Vision. House rules notwithstanding.


Well in the 4th ed book I have humans are described as having +1 edge. I'm assuming the writers didn't include all the other attribute modifications to the races because it would have been too self explanatory to write them all out when the modifications are already present on the chart. But I will admit that is an assumption on my part.


You'd also lose all of the abilities listed on the Shapeshifter Type Attribute Table, including any Enhanced Senses or Reach modifiers


Not sure about house rules or not, but you seem indecisive on this topic already. Because those are abilities, and they can be gained, and lost. I didn't see any rule saying that any are lost, only that some are gained.

If you feel that for some reason a shifter tiger/elf would have no bonuses to body or strength, I would be interested in hearing your reasoning on that, especially when one which looked like a human would have those benefits. Better yet, if a dev could state the intent of that particular line so its a little more clear that would be great too.

[Ol' Scratch]

Well in the 4th ed book I have humans are described as having +1 edge.

Oh, you mean that +1 Edge listed as an ability rather than the Attribute ranges they give right above it? Which they don't do for any of the other metahuman races? That the one you're referring to? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not sure about house rules or not, but you seem indecisive on this topic already.

No, I said that particular point could be argued. I never gave my opinion on the subject, just what the rules said since that's what the original poster was looking for.

If you feel that for some reason a shifter tiger/elf would have no bonuses to body or strength, I would be interested in hearing your reasoning on that, especially when one which looked like a human would have those benefits. Better yet, if a dev could state the intent of that particular line so its a little more clear that would be great too.

Again, not my opinion. If you want my opinion, then it's that there shouldn't be any changes at all, nor any cost for a different Shift (Metatype) power. Instead, the Shift is little more than illusion. They don't actually become a Human or any other race, they can just assume the shape of one. If for some reason a Wolf Shifter wants to look like a Troll, he'll look like a really scrawny specimen of one, whereas a Bear Shifter could pull it off. On the other hand, a Bear Shifter who tries to assume the form of an Elf is going to look like a beefy one that really stands out in a crowd.

In my games, you can choose any race you want with your Shift power. Just make sure it's at least close to whatever type of Shapeshifter you are. Fox or Eagle Shifters, for instance, make good Elves while Tiger Shifters can pull off an Ork pretty easily. One of the perks of being Human is that there's such a wide diversity in body types, any of the Shapeshifters can pass as one with only a few minor oddities in their appearance.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It says 'gain', this is a mathematical statement for addition, and not one of replacement. So their abilities should be combined, and not replaced.

I have to agree here... You gain the ABILITIES of the Metatype (and stats are not abilities in my book), But it is not really worth arguing about...

Keep the Faith

[SoyKaf Adict]

So basically, according the books association with their optional rule, I am spending 20 build to look like an elf and gain low-light vision. Better to just spend nothing on human and gain the +1 Edge, since it says so... that's sounds fair don't it? Hahaha

Yeah in that case I'd just assume it a cosmetic change, eschewing the added abilities for "hey that looks like an Elf, sure don't act like an Elf, but it must be..." factor. Thanks, I imagine I'd have to ask the specific GM about that issue, since this could be debated on both sides quite easily: rules vs. "c'mon, seriously?"

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So basically, according the books association with their optional rule, I am spending 20 build to look like an elf and gain low-light vision. Better to just spend nothing on human and gain the +1 Edge, since it says so... that's sounds fair don't it? Hahaha

Yeah in that case I'd just assume it a cosmetic change, eschewing the added abilities for "hey that looks like an Elf, sure don't act like an Elf, but it must be..." factor. Thanks, I imagine I'd have to ask the specific GM about that issue, since this could be debated on both sides quite easily: rules vs. "c'mon, seriously?"

Yeah, in the long run, I like the idea of being able to choose your Metatype "Look" and just ignoring the "Abilities" granted by Metatype all together; stat the shapechanger as a shapechanger and your Look is the race that you are with no additional benefits gained... makes a little more sense to me... but I know that there are a lot of people that that will not appeal to, so its all good in the end...

Keep the Faith

[Tech_Rat]

Choosing a different metatype for your shift ability grants you the metatype's abilities, not attributes. Both of these are clearly differentiated in mutiple situations. What does confuse me, now, is that with taking a shapeshifter and having shift(Human), the +1 Edge is technically listed under ability, not attribute... I'd really like a Dev to check on this. If so, shapeshifters that choose to leave their shift power on human would get one free point in Edge at chargen...

[3278]

I'd really like a Dev to check on this.

Why? Do the thing your group thinks makes the most sense. If it doesn't work, do it differently. You're just as good at this as the devs, trust me.

[Glyph]

Choosing a different metatype for your shift ability grants you the metatype's abilities, not attributes.

But when it talks about those abilities, it says "see Metatype Attribute Table, p. 72, SR4".

[Ol' Scratch]

Which is where the racial abilities are listed. The rule doesn't see "see the Metatype Attribute Table, add all of the abilities listed there for the desired race, extrapolate bonuses from the Attribute Minimums and Maximums, and add them to your Shapeshifter Attribute Minimums and Maximums." Because, once again, there aren't any Physical and Mental attribute bonuses in SR4.

[Ancient History]

For what it's worth (and if it ain't in the book it ain't worth much) the intent was for not-quite-metahuman shapeshifters to gain the abilities (low light vision, natural armor, reach, etc.) of the metatype in addition to the ones they get for being a shapeshifter.

Granted, this was another setion hat could have done with better playtesting.

[Glyph]

If that's so, it's way overpriced. A fox shapeshifter who turns into an elf pays an extra 20 BP for the low-light vision that he already has? Even for trolls, who actually have some additional abilities - 30 more points for +1 reach and dermal armor: 1 in one form? I think I prefer the Doc's house rule.