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> Need help on a slight combo..., Shapeshifter Regen+Quick Healer?
Tech_Rat
post Dec 3 2009, 12:01 AM
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Well, I'd like to know if the Quick Healer +2 dice for all heal attempts apply to Regen. There's nothing explicitly stating either way. The way it's worded, makes me think they would work quite nicely in conjunction.
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Ol' Scratch
post Dec 3 2009, 12:23 AM
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The talent specifically states Healing Tests. Regeneration uses a Regeneration Test, so it's not compatible. Ask your GM anyway as it's horrible pedantic and Regeneration sucks enough as is.
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Tech_Rat
post Dec 3 2009, 02:43 AM
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Thanks, Doc.
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3278
post Dec 3 2009, 03:55 AM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Dec 3 2009, 01:23 AM) *
...Regeneration sucks enough as is.

Could you elaborate? I've been reading about Regeneration today, so it's something I've been thinking about.
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Karoline
post Dec 3 2009, 04:02 AM
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QUOTE (3278 @ Dec 2 2009, 10:55 PM) *
Could you elaborate? I've been reading about Regeneration today, so it's something I've been thinking about.


The problem with it is that you only get the check once every combat turn and thus can be pushed into red quite a bit between healing attempts.

Still, just because it doesn't make you invulnerable doesn't mean it sucks.

Oh, right, and the 'injured by magic' part kinda sucks. A mage can take out a regenerating creature as easily as anything else.
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LurkerOutThere
post Dec 3 2009, 04:29 AM
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Yes because I hate having the potential to die due to massive amounts of damage dealt to me, regen should totally prevent that because i'm like, totally a werewolf.
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Ol' Scratch
post Dec 3 2009, 11:49 AM
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Regeneration only works, basically, on tiny little hits that barely do any damage. Anything major can easily be said to be a spinal or head shot (so no regeneration for joo), and a Called Shot pretty much guarantees that. All forms of magic, from spells to critter powers to weapon foci render it useless. Allergies do the same thing. Couple that with the fact that you don't get to make your test until the end of the turn -- if you get to make one at all with all those ways to render it pointless -- is what makes it pretty useless. Particularly for the cost it takes to get it.

If you're just going up against some gangers with a Pistols skill of 1 or 2, you might make it out okay. But any competition where you'd need to be able to regenerate is right out. You'll never get to even use it. So yay for wasting resources when you could have just gotten, say, a Savior Medkit and an auto-injector for the same net effect in-combat. Except even that works better than regeneration because it doesn't stop working if you get a Called Shot, hit by magic, or suffer an allergy. Not to mention that it works with Quick Healer, Rapid Healing, and similar abilities that boost your Healing Tests.
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Karoline
post Dec 3 2009, 12:20 PM
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It should be pointed out that allergies don't prevent regeneration unless the allergen is still in contact with the wound. They do however get a nice +4 to damage, so that basically cancels out a turn's worth of healing.

Even called shots aren't going to do automatic brain/spinal cord damage. A called shot to the head (Even if it hits) doesn't mean an instant kill after all, and I'm fairly sure that 99.9999% of people would die quite instantly if a bullet went through their brain. Now, if someone with regeneration is down and someone walks up and puts the gun to their head and pulls the trigger: that's when I figure you step out of the combat rules and have them simply die.

So really, regeneration is one of those things that is really effective against mundanes, but much less so against awakened, much like spirits.

Savior medkits with auto-injectors aren't going to be nearly as useful, because you'd only get 6 dice (Presuming the GM allows it. I've thought of doing this several times but it always seemed kinda sketchy to me), and it would prevent getting any real medical attention for your wounds, not to mention that it takes multiple turns for the healing to take place. Oh, and the 500 nuyen a shot can be fairly prohibitive as well.

Edit: To simplify, I don't think it is quite as useless as Dr. F is indicating, but I also don't think it is quite as big a fear as most people seem to think. Now, if it worked on magical wounds, then it would be sweet, and honestly somewhat more balanced (As if mages don't already have enough "Ha, look how much more awesome I am than a mundane" things about them)
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Ol' Scratch
post Dec 3 2009, 12:42 PM
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Shot to head = head injury = no regeneration. No way at all to argue that one. It's the whole point of a Called Shot, particularly the fourth option. It's also the best option a mundane shooter has of taking out a regenerating enemy, which they should be doing. Particularly if they're smart and using the incredibly broken rules for Full Auto fire in SR4 to offset the penalty of the Called Shot. (And getting even a pistol turned into a FA weapon with six points of recoil compensation is stupid easy, though SMGs and Machine Pistols work just fine without any cheesy rules.)

Likewise, headshots do not equal instant death. Nor do ones that hit the spinal region. Those are easily written off as major hits in Shadowrun's abstract system. It relies purely on GM fiat to see how effective non Called Shots are on a regenerating enemy.

Again: The only time regeneration is worth a damn is when you're in a fight against pathetic opponents who aren't a challenge to anyone, regeneration or not. Even then all Regeneration really gets you is faster downtime healing. Against any threat worth a damn where you'd want to be able to regenerate to the point where it's worth the ridiculous costs and insane forum crying about how unbalanced it is, it's completely and utterly useless. A sniper, a mage, a critter, a drone, and a gunbunny can all render your regeneration worthless without even trying.

And allergies didn't come up once. Not that it matters as a single silver bullet is going to stay "in contact" with you until you get it removed or the GM (fiat steps in again) decides it went completely through you.
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Sengir
post Dec 3 2009, 02:44 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Dec 3 2009, 01:42 PM) *
Shot to head = head injury = no regeneration.

Regeneration is only prevented by CNS damage, not everything of your head and up is in that cathegory. In Fact even most people with an open brain injury (ie. one where the skull is punctured and the brain lies open) die from blood loss, lack of blood flow to the brain, or internal bleeding putting too much pressure on the brain.
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Tech_Rat
post Dec 3 2009, 03:56 PM
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Thing is, this was originally intended with the shapeshifter, since they already come with Regen. Honestly, I wouldn't spend the points to get the effect later. I was just curious to see if I could sneak a couple extra dice on this character's heal test. I'm still getting it for other healings and all. Heh, funny thing is, this character I'm building is based off of one of my older ones. I'm running a game and was thinking of bringing my old PC's into the mix for my new group.
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Karoline
post Dec 3 2009, 04:10 PM
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Yeah, I'm not 100% sure what 'cost' people are talking about. As far as I know it isn't something you can buy via nuyen, BP, or karma. Only way I know to buy it is via a free spirit, where yes, it is ridiculously expensive. Otherwise it is simply part of being a race, which I suppose is factored into the cost of the race somehow, but I've never sat down and looked at how many points they are factored out at are.

As Sengir pointed out it is brain damage, not head damage. People don't survive brain damage (In non-vegitable or severely handicapped states) so I'd imagine that a called shot to the head is going to damage the skull or other important things, but won't generally injure the brain.

QUOTE
Except even that works better than regeneration because it doesn't stop working if you get a Called Shot, hit by magic, or suffer an allergy

So yes, you did mention allergies. As for the silver bullet, the silver isn't touching most of the wound, only a very small part of it on your insides (Presuming of course that it didn't go all the way through) so even in the case of a silver bullet I figure that a werewolf would be able to regenerate all but 1 point of damage (It would be a real pain to get it out later though).

Regeneration's main weakness like I said earlier is magic and that it works on a turn basis, not an IP basis.
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Ol' Scratch
post Dec 3 2009, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Dec 3 2009, 08:44 AM) *
Regeneration is only prevented by CNS damage, not everything of your head and up is in that cathegory. In Fact even most people with an open brain injury (ie. one where the skull is punctured and the brain lies open) die from blood loss, lack of blood flow to the brain, or internal bleeding putting too much pressure on the brain.

GM Fiat.

The rules for Regeneration specifically state that using a Called Shot cancels Regeneration. End of discussion. SR4A pp. 296-297. Regeneration is magical. It has its own bizarre rules. The same rules that state that touching a piece of silver to a werewolf will stop them from regeneration despite a complete and total lack of damage to the central nervous system. Hell, you can walk up to someone with it, slap them upside the head with extreme prejudice, and they can't recover from it any faster than anyone else. Whereas you could stab them in the heart with a piece of rusted iron and they'd be okay a few seconds later.

QUOTE (Karoline)
Yeah, I'm not 100% sure what 'cost' people are talking about. As far as I know it isn't something you can buy via nuyen, BP, or karma. Only way I know to buy it is via a free spirit, where yes, it is ridiculously expensive.

Free Spirits show us the game designer's point of view through reduction and reverse engineering. Regeneration is the equivalence of 5 Power Points as an adept, which in turn is equal to 5 points of Magic or an implant that took up 5 points of Essence. Boosting your reflexes by three initiative passes, six Reaction, and three point of Dodge is worth less to the designers than Regeneration is. Ignoring that, they show us how much they value it through any metatype that they give it to. Not only are the majority of them expensive in and of themselves, but most of them are laden down with crippling allergies and vulnerabilities (as well as other weaknesses) and are unable to get any kind of implant without having to pay ten times the normal cost and begging the GM for access to a delta clinic.

It's a classic example of game designers overcompensating. Regeneration used to be really powerful and those methods of controlling it were called for them. But not only do they burden anyone with Regeneration down with those limitations, they crippled the core ability itself to the point of complete and utter uselessness except as a small savings on your downtime expenses (as long as no Called Shots or magical attacks were involved).
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Nemrod
post Dec 3 2009, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE
All forms of magic, from spells to critter powers to weapon foci render it useless. Allergies do the same thing.


True for weapon foci and spells, not true per se for allergies, the allergen has to remain in contact with the person / creature's body

QUOTE
Shot to head = head injury = no regeneration. No way at all to argue that one.


A head shot is harder than it sounds, targetting an opponent's weapon or specific body location is at a -4 dice penalty, remember.

QUOTE
using the incredibly broken rules for Full Auto fire in SR4 to offset the penalty of the Called Shot.


Wrong, read the rules for called shots again, you main only use up to burst-fire (short burst that is, not long burst) which makes it less dangerous than one may think. Second, I for one consider that even if you do succeed in hitting the head, it actually takes quite more than 2 or 3 boxes of damage to actually count as brain / spine damage, otherwise every runner would pretty much be brain damaged or paralytic....

Overall for having tested it in one of my games (one of my players had a character with regeneration), it's pretty powerful, especially since if you're clever and not obviously a spirit or whatever, the opponent is not going to know you have regeneration at first, and so isnt going to "put a bullet in your head" once you're on the floor, leaving you quite some time to get better and help your friends, for example.
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Ol' Scratch
post Dec 3 2009, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE (Nemrod)
True for weapon foci and spells, not true per se for allergies, the allergen has to remain in contact with the person / creature's body

A silver bullet or similar attack will remain in contact with the target unless the GM handwaves and decides that it passes through. A single 25-nuyen bullet completely stops regeneration cold for most shapeshifters and several other regenerating creatures. Hit them with one and each and every attack made against them will not be regenerated.

QUOTE
Wrong, read the rules for called shots again...

First, I did make a mistake with the Full Auto portion but even a Short Burst is enough to make up most of the difference. Take Aim (simple action or free action if you have training in Krav Maga or the like) + Burst Fire (simple action) = +1 die for you and -2 dice for them. If you have dice to spare, as most gunbunnies and snipers will, even an unmodified -4 penalty means little. Several other options exist to make it all the better.

Second, the Called Shot to target the head isn't a -4 penalty. You can use the option to target a vital area, and choose to increase your DV by only +1 for a paltry -1 dice pool modifier. Take Aim completely counters that. Alternatively you can leave it up to the GM to decide via the fourth option which is used for specific effects. Which, incidently, has no associated modifier. A -4 modifier, however, is way overboard as that's the same modifier used in the third option which is to shoot an object out of a target's grasp; a significantly more challenging shot than a head shot.

Third, it doesn't take much to figure out someone can regenerate. Worse, most enemies aren't just going to shoot you til you drop then wander off and let you heal as you please. The moment you start showing signs of life -- which will be completely unconscious on your part -- they're going to come back over and finish the job.

And yet again, the only time you don't have to worry about getting killed so hard that you can't regenerate is in fights where your regeneration doesn't mean anything anyway because they're just pathetic goons thrown into the run for some action. All it gives you is some free healing at the end of the fight, if you got hit at all. Any real threat is going to kill you so dead -- either through overkilling the moment they figure out you can regenerate, which is very easy to pick up on for anyone with half a brain, or the very simple method of just hitting you with a manabolt or two -- that you may as well not even have had it to begin with. I really like how you guys keep skipping over that particular fact. It's even worse because if you do go around flaunting your regeneration, which you will any time it comes up by default, you should totally end up getting a bounty on your head one way or another. Either for the handful of nuyen they'll get for selling your pelt, or the default bounties on things like the infected.
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Sengir
post Dec 3 2009, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Dec 3 2009, 05:34 PM) *
GM Fiat.

The rules for Regeneration specifically state that using a Called Shot cancels Regeneration. End of discussion. SR4A pp. 296-297.

I'd say they take it as example for something that can cause that damage, and called shots always require GM fiat. Smashing somebody's brain at the cost of just 4 dice would be too broken IMHO.


@Karoline: Brain damage will not automatically tie somebody to the wheelchair or worse, but the consequences will still be nasty. For RL examples, just look up the history of Lobotomy.
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Karoline
post Dec 3 2009, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE (Sengir @ Dec 3 2009, 01:02 PM) *
@Karoline: Brain damage will not automatically tie somebody to the wheelchair or worse, but the consequences will still be nasty. For RL examples, just look up the history of Lobotomy.


Yeah, I thought I'd mentioned other mental damage as well. Basically if every time someone took serious damage, it was brain/CNC, then no SR character would last more than a run or two, because they would all be bedridden, mentally retarded, or otherwise unsuited to run in the shadows.

Now, as for regeneration being obvious... says who? In a normal combat situation, visibility is going to be somewhat poor, and people aren't going to have time to closely examine your wound to see if it is still there or not, they'll be too busy trying to get behind cover. Heck, they won't even necessarily be entirely sure they've hit you, much less that the hit actually pierced your armor. Now in melee where you have long gashes and stuff, this might become more obvious, but not necessarily instantly so. And even if someone does know that you can regenerate, not all characters have the benefit of having an SR core rulebook to look up ways to prevent it (Actually none of them do) Vampires and warewolves are rare, and most of what people know about them is going to come from hearsay. It's more likely that they'll look around for something to make into a cross or find some garlic or something than go "Oh, guys, I got this, they totally can't regenerate if you aim for their heads." unless someone has high ranks in some relieve magical lore (Like knowledge: Real Vampires/Werewolves).

And if you get dropped and presumed dead, then chances are good they'll overlook a few small twitches that you might do as you wake back up, as they'll be too busy checking themselves and tending to their own wounds to worry about dead/unconscious enemies.
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Ol' Scratch
post Dec 3 2009, 07:05 PM
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I'm just going to keep quoting this part since you guys really like ignoring it.

QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein)
And yet again, the only time you don't have to worry about getting killed so hard that you can't regenerate is in fights where your regeneration doesn't mean anything anyway because they're just pathetic goons thrown into the run for some action. All it gives you is some free healing at the end of the fight, if you got hit at all. Any real threat is going to kill you so dead -- either through overkilling the moment they figure out you can regenerate, which is very easy to pick up on for anyone with half a brain, or the very simple method of just hitting you with a manabolt or two -- that you may as well not even have had it to begin with. I really like how you guys keep skipping over that particular fact.


And sorry, but Magic Background, Paranormal Critters, Parazoology and similar Knowledge Skills are exceedingly common.
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darthmord
post Dec 3 2009, 07:22 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 3 2009, 01:44 PM) *
Yeah, I thought I'd mentioned other mental damage as well. Basically if every time someone took serious damage, it was brain/CNC, then no SR character would last more than a run or two, because they would all be bedridden, mentally retarded, or otherwise unsuited to run in the shadows.

Now, as for regeneration being obvious... says who? In a normal combat situation, visibility is going to be somewhat poor, and people aren't going to have time to closely examine your wound to see if it is still there or not, they'll be too busy trying to get behind cover. Heck, they won't even necessarily be entirely sure they've hit you, much less that the hit actually pierced your armor. Now in melee where you have long gashes and stuff, this might become more obvious, but not necessarily instantly so. And even if someone does know that you can regenerate, not all characters have the benefit of having an SR core rulebook to look up ways to prevent it (Actually none of them do) Vampires and warewolves are rare, and most of what people know about them is going to come from hearsay. It's more likely that they'll look around for something to make into a cross or find some garlic or something than go "Oh, guys, I got this, they totally can't regenerate if you aim for their heads." unless someone has high ranks in some relieve magical lore (Like knowledge: Real Vampires/Werewolves).

And if you get dropped and presumed dead, then chances are good they'll overlook a few small twitches that you might do as you wake back up, as they'll be too busy checking themselves and tending to their own wounds to worry about dead/unconscious enemies.


Don't forget that people are conflating SR4A Regeneration with Wolverine Regeneration. His regen works on anything all the time. SR4A Regen doesn't work the same way.

Here's a question... does Regeneration as written on Page 296 of SR4A have any effect on Drain? It specifically calls for Magical Damage.

Here's the relevant C&P:
CODE
Regeneration
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always
A critter with Regeneration rapidly heals any damage. At the end
of a Combat Turn, make a Magic + Body Test. Each hit regenerates 1
point of Physical or Stun damage. If a critter has already taken enough
damage to enter into Physical damage overflow, the critter is not considered
dead until it has had a chance to make a Regeneration Test. After
a critter has made a Regeneration Test, if the damage overflow is still
greater than the critter’s Body attribute, then the critter is dead.
Certain types of damage cannot be regenerated from this power.
Damage to the brain or spinal cord (for example, from a called shot to the head)
cannot be healed this way. Likewise, magical damage
from weapon foci, combat spells, critter/adept powers, or other magic
may not be healed through Regeneration. If the critter has an Allergy,
the critter cannot regenerate damage until the allergen’s presence is
removed.


It's plain that magic having some sort of primary effect on you is valid for not being regenerated. I'm curious about the secondary effects of Magic, such as Drain. It's a byproduct of casting spells. It's not the purpose behind the spell.
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Tech_Rat
post Dec 3 2009, 07:28 PM
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That right there is my biggest issue with Regen. Magic damage nulls it. Sure, Bod+Mag, being anywhere from 2 to 12+ dice for regen at chargen RAW. Law of statistics[or was it averages? I can never remember...] dictates that'll be on average four hits. Man, if only Regen could heal magic damage, the rest of the restrictions would be fine... Curse my group trying to run as RAW as possible.
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Karoline
post Dec 3 2009, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Dec 3 2009, 02:05 PM) *
And sorry, but Magic Background, Paranormal Critters, Parazoology and similar Knowledge Skills are exceedingly common.


None of which will confer any knowledge of regeneration. It is a quite rare power. Off the top of my head, only vampires and werewolves possess it (And a very few free spirits). And given the general attitude towards those two, they aren't exactly going to offer up their weaknesses, and likely not much study has been done. Heck, honestly a vampire who has recently turned likely wouldn't even know that they can't regenerate magic/brain damage.

So yeah, there is lots of knowledge about magic out there, but if you're letting such obscure things as regeneration fall under the absurdly broad category of 'Magic Background'... well then Magic Background is the only skill you would ever need for all things even remotely related to magic.

And you're quoted argument mostly relies on them knowing you can regenrate. Yeah, they'll overkill you if they know that, but figuring that out isn't exactly easy as I already said. I think the truth is that the power is only slightly useful against big threats (Because they are likely to down you in a single combat turn) but is still handy if you can draw out the fight (Running, taking lots of cover, etc). It is absurdly useful against cannon fodder types, because you don't have to worry about the little nicks and scratches you might get from them, while others might take a few points that might add up to a -1 DP.

So yeah, I haven't skipped over it, I addressed it mostly with the fact that it isn't 'anyone with half a brain' that can notice regeneration and then knows how to deal with it properly.

I mean think of all the ways you've ever heard of dealing with a vampire and regeneration in general. Crosses, running water, holy water, garlic, can't enter a house without permission, silver, wooden stakes, sunlight, holy chants, fire, acid, brain damage, overkill. You've likely heard of all of these things working. You've also likely heard of all of these things not working too. So, you come up against a vampire, how do you go about killing it? Well damn, you don't really know exactly what will really work against them, maybe nothing will, maybe you haven't even heard of what will really get rid of them.

Just because it is in the book doesn't mean joe average knows anything about it. Even joe average mage with a fair bit of magic knowledge likely doesn't know what really hurts a vampire, unless he for some reason studies them in particular.

Edit: @darthmod Given that the damage is caused by magical backlash, I figure the damage wouldn't be regenerated.
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Dakka Dakka
post Dec 3 2009, 08:29 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 3 2009, 07:44 PM) *
"Oh, guys, I got this, they totally can't regenerate if you aim for their heads." unless someone has high ranks in some relieve magical lore (Like knowledge: Real Vampires/Werewolves).
At least professional hit men could make a habit of double tapping the center of mass and adding a shot to the head. No matter if the opponent is a normal metahuman, ghoul, vampire or shapeshifter, it slows all of them down pretty good. Hmm aren't shadowrunners sometimes called "guys, who shoot people in the face for money"?


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Ol' Scratch
post Dec 3 2009, 10:24 PM
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QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 3 2009, 01:29 PM) *
None of which will confer any knowledge of regeneration.

You get a big old "whatever" for that.

QUOTE
It is a quite rare power.

And another monstrous one.

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3278
post Dec 4 2009, 06:12 PM
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Interesting arguments. Certainly, Regeneration seems useful, in the sense that I would much rather have the ability than not. Even with a Magic and Body of 3, and thus only healing a couple of points of damage each turn, it's better than not being able to do it! And in conjunction with higher attributes - and the various ruinous options for enhancing them - you can achieve proportionately more healing. The limitations are harsh, but stop short of being drawbacks: they're not worse than not having Regeneration!

The only question then if it it's worth the price you pay for it. My understanding of the rules for spirits is that the Regeneration power cost there is ludicrous, calibrated perhaps as Dr Funk says for previous editions, perhaps just another bad rule; even in conjunction with Immunity to Normal Weapons, this cost seems disproportionate. [Although I haven't playtested it, so this is ultimately just speculation on my part!] The only other way you get access to Regeneration is Infection, right? Which means you have to weigh Regeneration with a host of other benefits and drawbacks. Looking at the costs for various Infected with Regeneration, and the other things they get, I wouldn't feel at all cheated, so there's that.

If players were interested in Regeneration in our group, I'd probably propose slight changes to it. For instance, perhaps a Regeneration test would require a complex action: you'd get more than one per turn, but you'd have to actively concentrate on healing yourself, [perhaps limiting the number of Regeneration tests per Combat Turn, if it was getting out of hand with high IPs]. Certainly I'd lower the cost for Free Spirits. I can think of various solutions for the "silver bullet lodged in my ribs means I can't heal" issue, which I agree is troublesome as worded. And I would find a better way of dealing with the "damage to head or spine" issue, which shouldn't ever come up in a locationless hit system like Shadowrun's.

Ultimately, there could be a variety of Regenerations, all with slightly different rules, if you wanted to mirror the variety you find in myth and legend. Shadowrun benefits from a flexible and extensible ruleset which begs to be tampered with, so we don't have to tolerate rules we don't like.
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pbangarth
post Dec 4 2009, 09:00 PM
Post #25


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Dr. Funkenstein, your arguments make sense, but they seem to me to be focused on a limited scenario. In the case of a single regenerating character, the problems you describe are applicable. In the situation of a team of shadowrunners, the likelihood of this one character being shot to death and then observed in detail as he regenerates is much lower.

A competent team tends to win the firefight or drag the injured out as they run away. In both of those circumstances, regeneration is very valuable, as the regenerating character is back to full functionality in a matter of a minute. Yes, there are many ways that regeneration can be interrupted, but I don't think it is the case that regeneration is likely to be noticed and dealt with whenever it is activated, and I don't think that being able to heal damage from any material source in a matter of seconds is worthless.

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In terms of cost, there are ways around the options you say are too expensive. For example, the team could hire or develop a Wujen or other magician with similar access to Guardian Spirits and Plant spirits, and Invoking. Invoke a F1 Guardian Spirit to have Endowment, and a F3 Plant Spirit to have Regeneration. Have the Guardian Spirit Endow the Plant Spirit with Endowment. Then have the Plant Spirit Endow the entire party (up to 6) with Regeneration. Seems pretty cheap to me.

*ducks the hurled cheese*
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