Karmagen and SR4A, more karma because of x5 attribute cost? Options

[Thanee]

Hiyas!

Eventually I'm going to run an SR4A campaign, and I am considering Karmagen for character creation.

However, I wondered, whether I should increase the Karma total in order to pay due for the increased attribute cost?

I guess it will be covered in the 2010 installment of the anniversary Runner's Companion, but that's still some time in the future, so...

What do you think about it? Any experiences to share already?

Bye
Thanee

[Ard3]

IIRC the 750 karma was meant to go with 5xattribute. That is why karmagen with old 3xattribute was so unbalanced against standard 400BP.

They were planning the 5x update while doing Runners Companion, but the errata was published after it.

[darthmord]

I opted to have my players start with 800 Karma with Karmagen. But then again, I also make them pay karma for their race (amount = BP Cost).

Most of the characters I have that were made under BP come out as having more points to spend under Karmagen even under my aforementioned house-rule.

Personally I like Karmagen much more than BP. The costs are far more balanced and the level of twinkery one can achieve with BP is harder to achieve with Karmagen.

[Doc Byte]

The german edition of RC includes the errated karmagen rules: 750 Karmapoints are unchanged, attributes cost x5 Karma and racecost = BP in Karma

[Karoline]

The german edition of RC includes the errated karmagen rules: 750 Karmapoints are unchanged, attributes cost x5 Karma and racecost = BP in Karma

That's what I'd heard. Not entirely sure about paying for the race though. High BP races also have to spend alot more karma to get to racial averages, so I don't see much point in hitting them with the BP cost in karma.

I haven't played around with it really though, so don't know if that makes it even or not.

[Ol' Scratch]

Honestly I'd rather go back to the older method of having attribute bonuses rather than this minimum/maximum limitation stuff. Balance needs to be found on the cost of the race, not this nebulous crap caused by potentially raising attributes to excessive levels during character creation.

I understand why they changed it, but they didn't think or plan it out very well at all. The only advantage it has over bonuses is you don't have to pay to raise penalized attributes (ie, a troll doesn't have to buy Charisma 3 just to end up with Charisma 1 during creation).

[Jericho Alar]

Personally I like Karmagen much more than BP. The costs are far more balanced and the level of twinkery one can achieve with BP is harder to achieve with Karmagen.

It's actually less balanced if you know how to spend your karma (the rules I posted concerning BP are even more true with karma, just in slightly deceptive ways - a few more points get spent in skills since you want every skill you didn't take as a skillsoft at 1, for instance.) it's just not as obvious to the typical player how to break it.

the only system that isn't universally cracked at the seams is priority, and even that punishes mundane humans. (Sum to 10 is pretty good though it has it's own issues: notably advantaging mundane humans.)

[Glyph]

The german edition of RC includes the errated karmagen rules: 750 Karmapoints are unchanged, attributes cost x5 Karma and racecost = BP in Karma

Another thing I am wondering - in Step 3, the amount of Karma you can spend is limited to half Attributes (plus metatype cost). This includes special Attributes. I always wondered if that was simply clumsy wording, and it was being assumed that the limit was only on the eight physical/mental Attributes. Because normally, keeping it at 750 and using the new Attribute costs wouldn't be that bad. But if you have to fit eight Attributes, and the special ones all at 375 or less, then any human awakened character or technomancer will be seriously boned.

So my question is, does the errata make their intentions any clearer? Because really, this is the only thing keeping it from being a viable system under the revised Attribute costs. Higher Attribute costs? A charge to be a metahuman? Makes it a less generous system, and more similar to traditional 400 BP, but neither of those changes make it so it doesn't work.

[Karoline]

I think virtually everyone who uses the karmagen with the new rules ignores the fact that the wording makes the limit apply to magic, because the half limit never has before with any of the buying systems. Edge or not is maybe up for grabs, but I'd say leave it out as well, because it once again has always been something you get to pick out apart from the usual half limit.