The Binding Power, ...as if melee wasn't already a bad enough idea. |
The Binding Power, ...as if melee wasn't already a bad enough idea. |
Dec 4 2009, 09:58 PM
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#1
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 557 Joined: 26-July 09 From: Kent, WA Member No.: 17,426 |
In my last two games, I've tried to change the opposition up by mixing in some critters - ghouls, stalkers, and a homebrew Great Bear. However, one of my players is a summoner, and likes to order his Earth Elementals to use the binding power on enemies. He always phrases it so as to require the spirit to recast the spell should it be escaped.
The mechanics of the Binding spell are absolutely murder on a Melee critter. QUOTE Binding Type: P • Action: Complex • Range: LOS • Duration: Instant The critter can make its victim “stick” to any surface he is touching (or to the being itself ). The victim may attempt to break free with a Complex Action, rolling Strength + Body against the critter’s Magic + Willpower. If the victim prevails, he has escaped. There doesn't seem to be any test to apply this power - once the spirit decides to 'stick' somebody, they're automatically stuck. When the critter's turn comes around, he can spend his turn breaking free and take a move, but he cannot attack (since breaking free is a complex action). When the Elemental's turn comes up, he will recast the spell, starting the whole cycle over again. If the critter starts his turn within range of a target, he can elect to remain bound and take a swipe instead, but the players aren't stupid - they keep their distance and use guns. Am I reading this right? Is there some trick I'm missing here? Or should I just accept that this party is never going to be threatened by anything without a gun? |
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Dec 4 2009, 10:05 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 222 Joined: 28-November 09 From: In ur ba5e, killin' ur d00dz. Member No.: 17,910 |
Well, you can resist any spell being cast on you to see if it 'hits' or not. Even if it's just a willpower test. Or you could always add in with their enemies a mage that summons a spirit that tears the earth elemental to pieces. ^-^
*edit* The test would be a willpower+counterspelling+[magic resist/arcane arrester/etc... as applicable] *edit again* If their enemies are chromed out... That applies a penalty to spells being cast on them, both positive and negative. You'd have to look up exactly how much, though. |
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Dec 4 2009, 10:06 PM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 |
This power, like all powers, is going to require a test. I think it is force or force x 2 vs willpower or something like that, though I could be wrong. Magic isn't my strong point.
What exactly is his wording? There is almost always a way around the wording if the earth elementals feel that they are doing too much work for a single service. Keep in mind that this will only affect a single opponent at a time, so unless you're only pitting them against single opponents, it is only going to slow one enemy down. And if they are only fighting one enemy at a time, well that enemy deserves to be turned into small chunky bits. Also keep in mind the golden rule of shadowrun: If the PCs can do it, the NPCs can do it too. While they don't really need to move if they use guns, being stuck in the open when someone opens up cover fire on their position is going to suck (Especially as I'd think you're totally justified in lowering/eliminating dodge tests since they aren't Neo) |
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Dec 4 2009, 10:07 PM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Yes, you're reading it right for the most part. The only mistake you're making is the assumption that they cannot perform any action other than trying to break free. The power doesn't restrict a stuck character from doing anything other than (presumably) moving. It doesn't even say what part of the subject is stuck other than to what they're touching or the critter, nor does it apply any penalties whatsoever. It's just that if you need or want to move from where you are, you have to either pull off that test or otherwise incapacitate the critter.
Hooray for poorly worded and thought out rules! Edit: No, there is no test for applying Binding. Powers that require an attack test state those rules in their description. You also have to love (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) how the critter power rules in particular tell you that they're just "guidelines" rather than actual rules to excuse nonsense like this one. |
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Dec 4 2009, 10:14 PM
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#5
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Yeah, I'm with Funk on this one: you stick my ninja physad NPC to the wall, and then laugh and proceed to try to batter him to death, he's not gonna take a complex action to unstick himself, he's gonna punch the earth elemental. Stuck does not equal paralyzed.
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Dec 4 2009, 10:15 PM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 |
Yeah, I'm with Funk on this one: you stick my ninja physad NPC to the wall, and then laugh and proceed to try to batter him to death, he's not gonna take a complex action to unstick himself, he's gonna punch the earth elemental. Stuck does not equal paralyzed. I think the problem is that stuck = out of melee range, and the PCs are smart enough to use guns when the enemy doesn't have them. Yes, if the enemy is in melee range being stuck isn't an issue, but the whole problem the OP has is that the enemies aren't in melee range, and the PCs have no intention of allowing them to get into melee range (They can all do walking as free actions, and no one is going to be faster than anyone else, so everyone goes the same speed) |
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Dec 4 2009, 10:48 PM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,817 Joined: 29-July 07 From: Delft, the Netherlands Member No.: 12,403 |
Greater numbers of lesses cool critters (did I just say Devil Rats are not cool?)
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Dec 4 2009, 10:50 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I think the point was if the elemental is binding someone, that someone would be in melee range to the spirit, although this, like most things, isn't 100% clear in the description.
Binding was written similarly in previous editions except it didn't specify an action to break free; there was a test (STR vs ESS), but it didn't bite into a character's actions for the phase. If you think Binding is broken that might fix it, but I'm basing this on my experience that no one every used Binding in previous editions so it couldn't have been that broken. |
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Dec 4 2009, 10:53 PM
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#9
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Numbers will make the character invest in Invoking, allowing the spirit to target everyone he wants stuck in an area.
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Dec 4 2009, 10:57 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 |
I think the point was if the elemental is binding someone, that someone would be in melee range to the spirit, although this, like most things, isn't 100% clear in the description. It has a range of LOS, so no reason for the spirit to be closer than a thousand feet or so. |
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Dec 4 2009, 11:50 PM
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#11
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
Like many critter powers and magic powers/spells they break upon closer review. A force 1 earth elemental could perma-bind a Juggernaut(who was a pile of suck in the critters book)
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Dec 5 2009, 12:04 AM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,899 Joined: 29-October 09 From: Leiden, the Netherlands Member No.: 17,814 |
Well, never bring a bear to a gunfight? If he binds somethign that has no ranged attacks.. well, that's not such a bad idea. But if that bear is a biodrone with built-in machine gun...
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Dec 5 2009, 12:52 AM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,468 Joined: 5-December 06 From: Somewhere in the Flooding, CalFree Member No.: 10,215 |
Use Barghests? Flame breath FTW (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Dec 5 2009, 02:30 AM
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#14
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The back-up plan Group: Retired Admins Posts: 8,423 Joined: 15-January 03 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,910 |
Hellhounds are Flame Breath, Barghests have a Petrifying Howl. Both would be effective in different ways.
Remember that each time the spirit activates the power takes a Complex Action, if the spirit defends against any attacks or if the attacker has more than 2 IPs, the spirit won't be able to keep it locked down. |
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Dec 5 2009, 03:11 AM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
But the duration of the power is Instant, not Sustained. Once the spirit binds someone, they are stuck until they break free.
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Dec 5 2009, 03:15 AM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
It has a range of LOS, so no reason for the spirit to be closer than a thousand feet or so. That's a good point. Although, is Binding one service per use? If so, if you're fighting a group and they have no ranged attacks, you're going to burn through most of your spirit's services locking them down, and be slowing them down at one per action. (Basically, the spirit's action is used to deprive the target of it's action, unless the target fails to break free.) Granted, as RvD pointed out, once they get Invoking this will be broken all over again. |
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Dec 5 2009, 03:33 AM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,679 Joined: 19-September 09 Member No.: 17,652 |
Well, OP said that the character worded it in such a way that he gets multiple uses out of a single service. It isn't that hard to do "Keep binding those ghouls until we kill them." would be a fairly easy way to have the spirit cast basically infinite times for only one service. That of course provides that you are on good standings with your earth spirits, because if the earth spirits are pissed at you, they could keep binding dead ghouls or already bound ghouls, and leave the rest free to charge.
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Dec 5 2009, 04:47 AM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
honestly, was one bear ever really going to be a problem for them anyways?
as has been said: use more than one creature. alternately, have the creatures surprise (if appropriate). use flying creatures. use creatures with ranged attacks. use creatures with some kind of support that would make it really handy to have the spirit doing something else. but yes, it basically does mean that an opponent with no ranged capability, no stealth, and no allies is not likely to make an effective opponent. kinda like how it was already not an effective opponent, in all probability. |
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Dec 5 2009, 08:56 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 9-October 09 From: Ambler, PA Member No.: 17,739 |
I think the deeper question here is Spirit Powers in general. Binding + Movement Speed Increase powers pretty much guarantees the players will never get in melee range. A skilled magician could have multiple spirits in play, one giving movement, perhaps one giving concealment, and the rest repeatedly binding. The fact all of these powers effectively 'always hit' creates a sort of god-mode that feels a little unbalancing. I would think the target would have a means of resisting an ability before being forced to break free of the results of the effect, but the rules are mysteriously quiet on this topic. I'd hate to be the GM facing this situation, just as I'd hate to be the player receiving the same. It effectively creates a sniper scenario, except you're at the sniper's mercy until he runs out of bullets.
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Dec 5 2009, 10:38 AM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
That comes down to an issue with melee combat, not the powers in question. Movement and Binding doesn't do anything to stop someone from shooting a gun or casting a spell at you.
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Dec 5 2009, 11:47 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 821 Joined: 4-December 09 Member No.: 17,940 |
As someone has alrady said, if the PCs can play, so can the opposition. An especially vicious use of the power would be to stick a grenade to the PC's hand just as he readies to throw it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)
Also keep in mind that to use the power on the material plane, the spirit needs to be materialized, hence vulnerable to mundane attacks (A ruger warhawk with Hi-ex ammo is a decent banishing tool) But basically the easiest way to counter this trick would be to swamp the PCs with a swarm of ennemies, or an ennemy with a ranged attack. Or make sure the mage is taken out first. |
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Dec 5 2009, 11:55 AM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I think this illustrates the larger point that unless you challenge SR groups in most of their arenas at once, the PC's tend to swamp the opposition.
Sending in opponents who lack both ranged attacks and decent magical defenses means they'll be ice cream for freaks. But that's the game. Challenging the PC's means making them fight multi-front battles, most of the time. |
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Dec 5 2009, 07:29 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 227 |
True that. Multi-front battles, or opponents they can't react to, or who use "divide and conquer" methods. The bear probably wasn't much of a threat because they all saw it coming. Now, one of those cyber-tooth tigers on its home turf, maybe with its own concealing spirit...
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Dec 5 2009, 07:38 PM
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#24
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
I think this illustrates the larger point that unless you challenge SR groups in most of their arenas at once, the PC's tend to swamp the opposition. Sending in opponents who lack both ranged attacks and decent magical defenses means they'll be ice cream for freaks. But that's the game. Challenging the PC's means making them fight multi-front battles, most of the time. For me it illustrates the "counter" style of the game. Its we can do this and to counter that I do this, and to counter that we have this etc. There are a ridiculous number of effects countered by specific things so characters and sites become almost farcical Boy Scout icons. The basics or discussion here seem to go "X is overpowered". No its not you can counter X with Y. If you like this style, you might call it tactical or something. If you don't you call it something less complimentary. |
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Dec 5 2009, 10:43 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
(This is what happens when you fork a stranger in the alps. Although my favorite example of this was from "die Hard II" when Bruce Willis's voice changes several octaves during this exchange: "If you had gotten the lead out of your pencil we wouldn't be hip deep in snow right now!")
I think it's always a danger when you use One-Trick Ponies. I think the danger is more noticeable in SR than in other system, because there are a lot more tricks. |
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