riggers / drones really that fast?, drone IPs when the rigger jumps in Options

[Mongoose]

Say a rigger has the nice fat 5 IPs currently allowed by various augmentations / gear, and jumps into a drone. Can the drone now perform actions in all 5 IPs? It seems like a pretty cheap way to get a "speed monster" on your side in combat.
Are all drones really built for such rapid response? What if the drone is a biodrone?
It seems to me drones should have a limited number of IPs they can act in, no matter how they are controlled, and bonuses for simsense use would simply allow more VR actions, such as controlling OTHER drones.

[Tsuul]

I thought there was a very specific limit on that 5th IP. Or at least one of the 5 you take.

[Mongoose]

Not that I'm aware of. Though a drone with 4 IPs is pretty nice already, considering how hard it is to get that many IPs for physical actions via normal augmentation.

Simsense Accelerator
This state-of-the-art mod increases the speed at which simsense signals are transmitted between the commlink and a persona controlled via hot-sim VR. It increases a VR-using character’s Matrix Initiative Passes by 1. It does not boost Matrix Initiative in cold-sim VR or AR. It is compatible with simsense booster cyberware (so a hacker in hot sim with a simsense accelerator and simsense booster cyberware has 5 Initiative Passes). Initiative Passes; this is an exception to the rule that normally limits IPs to 4).

[JoelHalpern]

As far as I know, the phrase "Matrix Initiative Passes" is intended to apply only to actions in the matrix. My understanding is that actions of a drone in the real world, when controlled by a jumped-in rigger, are not considered "in the matrix". As such, the fifth pass would not apply.

(It does seem an interesting way to get 4 passes though.)

Yours,
Joel

[Jaid]

rigging a drone is a matrix action.

and yes, you can get 5 IPs on a drone with the right augmentations. this isn't really as big of a problem as you might think, if for no other reason than the fact that the more IPs you have, the less of a boost the next IP is, and ultimately it's still just actions that are taken after everyone else... and most likely after the fight is over anyways.

also, don't forget, you need to spend at least 1 action simply piloting the drone each turn or you have to make a crash test... so 5 IPs effectively becomes 4.

[Jericho Alar]

also, don't forget, you need to spend at least 1 action simply piloting the drone each turn or you have to make a crash test... so 5 IPs effectively becomes 4.

And depending on the drone in question weaponry may or not be fireable as often as you might like too.

[JoelHalpern]

And depending on the drone in question weaponry may or not be fireable as often as you might like too.

? Given that firing a drone weapon is always a complex action, until one runs out of ammunition, why would one be unable to fire 4 times per combat turn, in the hypothetical situation with 5 IPs 1 of which is spent driving?

Yours,
Joel

PS: I am not sure that controlling a drone when jumped in should count as a "matrix action", but that clearly is a matter of how oen reads the vaguely worded rules.

[Jericho Alar]

? Given that firing a drone weapon is always a complex action, until one runs out of ammunition, why would one be unable to fire 4 times per combat turn, in the hypothetical situation with 5 IPs 1 of which is spent driving?

Yours,
Joel

PS: I am not sure that controlling a drone when jumped in should count as a "matrix action", but that clearly is a matter of how oen reads the vaguely worded rules.

I may be misremembering but aren't some [edit]larger* drones using basically breech weapons that require explicit reload actions?

or are in situations where they need to spend actions defeating ewar tech to take reasonable shots. (although this is paralleled on the ground by non-riggers.)

[Tsuul]

It's possible to have single action shots on a drone weapon. Depends on the weapon used.
Gunnery on 162.
"The action required for shooting weapons depends on the mode fired, same as with normal firearms, but in almost all cases vehicle weapons require a Complex Action to fire."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

rigging a drone is a matrix action.

and yes, you can get 5 IPs on a drone with the right augmentations. this isn't really as big of a problem as you might think, if for no other reason than the fact that the more IPs you have, the less of a boost the next IP is, and ultimately it's still just actions that are taken after everyone else... and most likely after the fight is over anyways.

also, don't forget, you need to spend at least 1 action simply piloting the drone each turn or you have to make a crash test... so 5 IPs effectively becomes 4.

Of course, if you think that you can pass the Crach Test, you do not need to spend an action driving... better hope that you are an exceptional pilot though...

Keep the Faith

[Neraph]

PS: I am not sure that controlling a drone when jumped in should count as a "matrix action", but that clearly is a matter of how oen reads the vaguely worded rules.

The rules are not vaguely worded; you simply do not like them. It very plainly states that all actions when jumped in are considered matrix actions. If you are somehow able to get 5 IPs for matrix actions, then you make a very effective rigger.

Of course, if you think that you can pass the Crach Test, you do not need to spend an action driving... better hope that you are an exceptional pilot though...

Of course, the -1 Threshold for being in VR is definately going to help...

[JoelHalpern]

The rules are not vaguely worded; you simply do not like them. It very plainly states that all actions when jumped in are considered matrix actions. If you are somehow able to get 5 IPs for matrix actions, then you make a very effective rigger.

Can you be more specific? As far as I can tell, there are only three paragraphs about "Jumping into Drones." They are on page 239 on the base book.
They specify that one jumps into a drone "via full-VR". That is not the same as "very plainly states that all actions when jumped in are considered matrix actions."
The rules specify that the drone acts on the riggers initiative, using the riggers own skill and attributes. It does not say "matrix attributes".

I can see how you can read it as meaning matrix attributes and matrix initiative and passes. But I can not see anywhere that it states this explicitly. It reads to me in fact that it uses the riggers meat attributes, meat skills, and meat initiative (modified by control rig and control rig booster).
I may have missed something, but I don't see anything in Unwired that changes this.

Yours,
Joel

[etherial]

Can you be more specific? As far as I can tell, there are only three paragraphs about "Jumping into Drones." They are on page 239 on the base book.
They specify that one jumps into a drone "via full-VR". That is not the same as "very plainly states that all actions when jumped in are considered matrix actions."
The rules specify that the drone acts on the riggers initiative, using the riggers own skill and attributes. It does not say "matrix attributes".

I can see how you can read it as meaning matrix attributes and matrix initiative and passes. But I can not see anywhere that it states this explicitly.

Hot sim benefits the rigger as much as the hacker. All actions by a rigger who has jumped into a drone (or other device) are considered Matrix actions, and receive the benefit of the +2 bonus due to hot sim VR use. ...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The rules are not vaguely worded; you simply do not like them. It very plainly states that all actions when jumped in are considered matrix actions. If you are somehow able to get 5 IPs for matrix actions, then you make a very effective rigger.


Of course, the -1 Threshold for being in VR is definately going to help...

No Doubt... Any competent Piolt will never have to use that Pilot Test unless they really want to do something spectacular, otherwise the thresholds are failry low in Hot VR (Crazy situations notwithstanding)

5 IP for Drone Goodness Indeed... See SR4A, Page 245, Heading: Jumping In for the description...


Keep tthe Faith

[Jack Kain]

Somehow I find it odd the rigger would be able to exceed the drones regular number of IP passes which is 3, but hey plenty of things in this game are odd.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Somehow I find it odd the rigger would be able to exceed the drones regular number of IP passes which is 3, but hey plenty of things in this game are odd.

That is because a Pilot program only receives three passes in Combat... the rigger overrides that when he jumps in and receives the 3 for Hot Sim unless he has other boosts, at which point he can achieve 4 and even 5 passes in combat... it is not a limitation of the Drone, it is a limitation of the Piloting Program itself...

Not really all that Odd...

Keep the Faith

[Tech_Rat]

How would this character get around the "Most Characters" part? I see Dragons getting around it, yes, but...

SR4A p.145

Initiative Passes
Some characters may have magic or implants that allow them to act
more than once in a Combat Turn. When this occurs, the Combat
Turn is divided into Initiative Passes. Everyone gets to act during the
first Initiative Pass (in order according to their Initiative Score), characters
with two actions get to go again during a second Initiative Pass,
characters with three actions get a third action during a third Initiative
Pass, and so on. Most characters may not act in more than 4 Initiative
Passes in a Combat Turn (even if they spend Edge).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How would this character get around the "Most Characters" part? I see Dragons getting around it, yes, but...

Well... 2 pieces of equipment...

The simsense Accelertor (+ HOT VR Initiative Pass)
and a Simsense Booster (+1 Initiative Pass)

Added together, they will provide 5 IP, which is an exception to the rule that normally limits IP's to 4...

See page 198 of Unwired for specifics... Ironically, this would apply to a Jarhead full conversion cyborg as well, as his body is a drone that is jumped into... makes for a very powerful character indeed... assuming that you could afford to paly one... not that this will limit the Corps ina any way other than money...

Keep the Faith

[Tech_Rat]

Well... 2 pieces of equipment...

The simsense Accelertor (+ HOT VR Initiative Pass)
and a Simsense Booster (+1 Initiative Pass)

...

Keep the Faith

Thanks, Tymeaus. Being one who normally plays Essence reliant PC's[shifter phys ad, phys ad, TM...], I wouldn't have seen this.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thanks, Tymeaus. Being one who normally plays Essence reliant PC's[shifter phys ad, phys ad, TM...], I wouldn't have seen this.

Hey, No Problems... Glad I could help out...

Keep the Faith

[Malachi]

That is because a Pilot program only receives three passes in Combat... the rigger overrides that when he jumps in and receives the 3 for Hot Sim unless he has other boosts, at which point he can achieve 4 and even 5 passes in combat... it is not a limitation of the Drone, it is a limitation of the Piloting Program itself...

QFT.

This is a very important distinction. The "drone" itself doesn't have 3 IP's, it is the Drone's Pilot program that has the 3 IP's. A "drone" cannot have IP's any more than a "gun" or "autopicker" or piece of cyberware. The device doesn't have the IP's, the controller/user of the device has the IP's.

[Tsuul]

I sense a upgrade that boosts a pilot's IPs on the horizon.

[JoelHalpern]

Thanks Etherial. The quote for SR4A is quite clear. (I don't know if that is a clarification they added, or if I missed a similar quote in SR4. But in any case, the quesiton is resolved.)

Yours,
Joel

[Jericho Alar]

I sense a upgrade that boosts a pilot's IPs on the horizon.

I'd be a little surprised if there was one; it would significantly reduce the advantages for jumping in. (basically you'd only ever do it as hot and the game wants cold only to be at least an option..)

[3278]

also, don't forget, you need to spend at least 1 action simply piloting the drone each turn or you have to make a crash test... so 5 IPs effectively becomes 4.

Only a drone I'm jumped into, correct? If I'm in hot sim VR with my 5 IPs worth of gear, but sitting in my own node using the Command program, I can issue 5 commands per combat turn, none of which would need to be piloting tests, because when I'm not actively issuing commands to a drone, it's acting on its own Pilot. Or am I reading this incorrectly? I ask because I can't believe I'm reading this correctly.