Shapechanger and Dual Natured Options

[Maxwell]

In SR3 shapechangers were dual natured... why isn't that so in SR4 anymore? Has it been forgotten? Is the Matrix Crash 2.0 to be blamed? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[TygerTyger]

Shapeshifters in SR4 are dual-natured.

Page 87 of Runners Companion.

Shapeshifters are Awakened but they are not magicians. Shapeshifters are dual-natured beings in both forms, and, as such, they may learn Assensing and Astral Combat, but otherwise they cannot learn or use Magic Skills, astrally project, initiate, or bond foci unless they take an appropriate quality such as Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, or Mystic Adept.

[Maxwell]

Thx. I think I was blind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Daylen]

learn astral combat? they can't just take a swat at something anymore?!

[TygerTyger]

learn astral combat? they can't just take a swat at something anymore?!

Well sure, but they can't project (unless the take Magician Quality) so they don't do it naturally... they can still use normal combat skills to hit something in astral space, but if they project, they'll need the skill.

[Glyph]

But it is talking about shapeshifters who don't have magical qualities, so they never will astrally project.

That's one of the big changes in SR4. Astrally perceiving characters still need to use astral combat; they can't attack astral enemies with their meat body's physical combat skills any more. The sole exception to this is drakes, and I am halfway convinced that this was just one of the people working on it going by the old SR3 rules, and the editors not catching it.

[Ancient History]

The sole exception to this is drakes, and I am halfway convinced that this was just one of the people working on it going by the old SR3 rules, and the editors not catching it.

Not sure what you're talking about here.

Some clarification is offered in Running Wild about critters with the Dual-Natured and Natural Weapon powers.

[Glyph]

I don't have Running Wild. I am looking at page 75 of Runner's Companion:

As dual natured beings in dracoform, characters can use their Physical attributes and Unarmed Combat skills in conjunction with their Natural Weapon attacks on both the astral and physical planes.

Going only be the previous rules, that is an exception to how astrally perceiving characters can attack astral enemies. Does Running Wild make that the norm for dual-natured critters with Natural Weapon attacks? If it does, I wouldn't mind. To be honest, this is one of those cases where the SR3 rules made more sense to me.

[Ancient History]

In an effort to help, from page 296 of SR4A:

If the critter is dual natured, Natural Weapon may be used with the normal Unarmed Combat skill and physical Damage Value to perform attacks against astral opponents (within reach).

I know Astral Combat rules are kind of weird, and I cannot say with perfect certainty why all the changes were made, but I can make some reasonable guesses. For one, a continuing effort on restricting magical skills to magicians - which began back in 2nd/3rd edition or so. Unfortunately, blanket bans mean that some strange situations come up when, for example, authors forget to give dual-natured critters the Astral Combat skill. Efforts to correct that problem go in...different ways. For example, you'll note in Runner's Companion that all the sapient critters and drakes can buy Assensing and Astral Combat, since they're all Awakened...even if they aren't magicians. Running Wild is even weirder and honestly I don't know what the thinking was when somebody wrote those rules, although if you ever hear Aaron and I argue about dual-natured vs. Dual-Natured you probably will grasp something of the minutae we're dealing with.

Long story short: SR4 was a big rules system change, there was bound to be some fallout.

[Daylen]

So as a dual natured being they can see the astral as before and be attacked by critters that are residing on the astral, but they can't fight back as before? or they can do as before but if they astrally project they have to go by the normal rules (as I thought they had to do before).

[Ancient History]

A person that is astrally perceiving but doesn't have the Dual-Natured critter power cannot use the Astral Combat Skill, and since there's no default on that skill that basically means they can't attack and can't effectively defend as long as they're astrally perceiving.

Critters that have the Dual-Natured and Natural Weapon critter powers (most that have the former also have the latter) can attack and defend themselves while dual-natured using their Unarmed Combat Skill and Natural Weapon(s). If they astrally project, they need to use the Astral Combat Skill.