Sioux Gangs, A New York Times Article Options

[Zen Shooter01]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/us/14gan...wanted=1&hp

[Draco18s]

It's a lot like poor kids in the inner city. No real surprise (most Native Americans are poor).

[AngelisStorm]

It's a lot like poor kids in the inner city. No real surprise (most Native Americans [i]are poor[/i]).

On reservations.

Anyway, that nitpick aside... damnit. That really sucks.

It tends to remind me of the insider vs. outsider anthropology arguement. Insiders don't like outsiders, but unless insiders train their own anthropologists...? Similary, the economies on the Rezs suck. But unless local individuals get out, get educated, and then come back to help... what is there to do? -_-

What I hadn't heard, and which I'm not fully convinced about, is the article's comment about the Northwest. I'm sure it's an issue of generalization (since the article wasn't focused on that point), but as far as I know many of the tribes are doing pretty ok in the Northwest, because of the casinos. It's giving the youth somewhere decent to work, and they are providing money for the families, to raise the standard of living and so the kids can go to college.

Anyway, I'm probably not making a whole lot of sense at this time of night, so yeah. (This subject just does not make me a happy camper.)

[pbangarth]

On reservations.

I go with Draco18's comment. Poverty among aboriginals extends into the urban environment, too. I don't know if there is a parallel in the US, but here in Canada there was a concerted effort in the 50's and 60's to force assimilation through residential schools. Kids were basically dragged away from their parents into schools hundreds or thousands of kilometers away, run by churches (mostly Catholic and Anglican). Lots of abuse... verbal, physical, sexual. Lots of denigration of the old culture. The kids were released eventually, not belonging to either culture. Those who lack a sense of belonging are prime fodder for gangs.

It tends to remind me of the insider vs. outsider anthropology arguement. Insiders don't like outsiders, but unless insiders train their own anthropologists...? Similary, the economies on the Rezs suck. But unless local individuals get out, get educated, and then come back to help... what is there to do? -_-

Exactly. Reservations are set up so the residents can't follow traditional lifeways, and are physically excluded from the mainstream.

Casino income has helped some communities, the ones that invest and provide channels for individuals to use their money constructively. I have occasion to spend time every year on one reservation in Ontario where life has improved dramatically since casino income has filtered in. One dramatic example is water manangement. This is a real problem on many reserves in Canada, with people sickening and dying from bad water. This reserve has it's own water treatment plant, run by people trained (elsewhere, as AngelisStorm points out) to do so.

There still are problems, though, with the youth finding destructive outlets for their energies. I have no doubt that those problems would be worse if the community were poorer.

[Wesley Street]

Check out Scalped by Vertigo/DC comics. Interesting fictional portrayal of organized crime on the rez. Where there are casinos...

In answer to your question, AngelisStorm, the reservations can continuously press lawsuits against the United States government. The US government is guilty of multiple treaty violations. A recent verdict after a 14-year trial resulted in (I think) $2 billion being awarded to one Native American nation. IIRC, each member of the tribe received $1,000 and the government purchased parcels of unused reservation land for conversion into national parks.

Another tribe recently purchased a New York bank, making it the first wholly Native American-owned banking institution.

But at the end of the day, the reservation residents have to decide for themselves that they want to break the culture and cycle of poverty. Then do something about it.

[Critias]

But at the end of the day, the reservation residents have to decide for themselves that they want to break the culture and cycle of poverty. Then do something about it.

Just like anybody else. Handing them a check for $1,000 isn't going to help if they have no idea how to manage money, if they run out and blow it on something stupid, or what-have-you. You can throw money at people all you want, if they're content living in poverty, or if enough people around them are (so that there's no momentum to bring about change), it won't do anyone any good.

[CanadianWolverin...]

I gotta say, when your local services and infrastructure is shit, it is really, really hard to pick yourself up by your boot straps. I know from personal experience that it is really hard to educate and improve the wealth of oneself when you are sick all the time.

Reservations are commonly huge sink holes for such basics as clean drinking water, sustainable healthy food production, commercial and industrial gradual long term growth jobs, recreational facilities, and not even allowed to make decisions (and taxes) at a town council level but must defer to the federal government bureaucracy, funding channels and programs determined by the Indian Act (from what I know in Canada). This has a lot to do with how Reservations were based originally on the winter camps of tribes, but in actuality those nations moved about following the resources and trade routes among nations that sustained their economies, like the caribou, various trapping lines, local plants, and marine habitats. And then throw in a generation that experienced the Residential Schools? Did you know there were many children who never even came back from those? The sins of our (fore) fathers indeed.

First Nations Tribes in BC, Canada who have been able to ratify current day treaties are in the implementation stages of setting up their local municipalities and the tax revenues that come with that, are seeing resurgences in their culture among their youth. Really, not surprising, most communities the world over when decisions are made locally for local long term growth that results in upswings in the economy result in cultural renaissance commonly.

Its one of the reasons I hate centralized governments in general and for an example of their bungling I only have to bring up Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) - first the east coast, then the west coast. A sufficiently large enough centralized government is an empire and I hope we all know from history how much fun it is to live on the edge of those.

This whole rant aside, which is close to my heart since my daughter's mother is from Ucluelet First Nation, the problems of Reservations aka ghettos with gangs is not unheard of around here in the more remote (aka rarely visited by the RCMP) communities where all there is to do is drink.

[Method]

It's a little different on tribal lands in the US. Most have a local council of elders that calls the shots. In fact it can sometimes be a detriment. I used to work in a behavioral health setting with native kids from the Rez (including gang memebers) and there were numerous occasions where the elders would pull kids out of our program before they got the help they needed. Of course we were outsiders and the memory of those cultural assimilation programs pbangarth mentioned is hard to kill.

[Iduno]

Aside from the rampant drug addiction and alcoholism (and both kept in plentiful supply), the rocky hills or desert they were given as land, an general refusal of society outside of the reservations to accept them, we have issues with in-fighting councils embezzling money away from where it is needed. It's a pretty dismal situation, and doesn't seem to be improving any. I can understand why people are turning to gangs to have some sort of power.

[Tiny Deev]

One died in a drunken car wreck, and another, a founder of the gang named Gaylord, was stabbed to death at 27.

No one finds this hilarious?

[Shrike30]

No one finds this hilarious?

Uh... not really.

Working as an EMT whose coverage area includes a reservation, I've seen both ends of the story. The casino on the reservation is, in fact, providing a lot of people with jobs and funding infrastructure projects that wouldn't have happened otherwise. That does not mean that a lot of the serious socioeconomic issues that existed prior to the casino have simply disappeared. Some of them will take generations to work out.

[Critias]

No one finds this hilarious?

Hah hah hah, people are dead! You're right, that is funny!

[Wesley Street]

You can throw money at people all you want, if they're content living in poverty, or if enough people around them are (so that there's no momentum to bring about change), it won't do anyone any good.

No argument. The poor have to want to be helped and be willing to help themselves. But in every situation of collective poverty, be it urban ghetto, favela or reservation, there are those who benefit from it. Gangs, crooked politicians, outside business interests (ie: check cashing vendors), etc. And like Method mentioned, there's a history of "but it's for your own good" cultural superiority/quasi-racism that needs to be overcome.

[Dreadlord]

I lived on a Navajo rez when I was a kid in the early 70s, and alcohol abuse and all the associated tragedies were very disturbing, nightmarish at that age in truth, but was not hilarious at all. Maybe you find the name Gaylord funny? Yes, Beavis, it is hilarious. hah-hah. hah. hah.

[Critias]

No argument. The poor have to want to be helped and be willing to help themselves. But in every situation of collective poverty, be it urban ghetto, favela or reservation, there are those who benefit from it. Gangs, crooked politicians, outside business interests (ie: check cashing vendors), etc. And like Method mentioned, there's a history of "but it's for your own good" cultural superiority/quasi-racism that needs to be overcome.

Right. Just so we're clear, I'm not blaming the poor folks on reservations (or elsewhere), themselves. Or, at least, not only them. It's just that not every person that's poor is poor because they lack money -- if that makes sense -- it's because they lack the skills or opportunities to get more money, get it steadily, spend it wisely, etc, etc. A poor person with a thousand bucks in his pocket is just gonna be poor again after he figures out what stupid shit to drop a thousand bucks on, y'know?

Folks living in abject poverty on a reservation don't need a check any more than folks living in abject poverty in the middle of the projects need their checks on the first of every month. They need steady and reliable income, money management skills, and a sliver of hope that tomorrow ain't gonna suck as bad as yesterday.

[Kyrn]

I lived on a Navajo rez when I was a kid in the early 70s, and alcohol abuse and all the associated tragedies were very disturbing, nightmarish at that age in truth, but was not hilarious at all. Maybe you find the name Gaylord funny? Yes, Beavis, it is hilarious. hah-hah. hah. hah.

No.
I believe he said he found, "a founder of the gang named Gaylord, was stabbed to death at 27" to be funny.
A man named Gaylord was a founder of a gang.
That, that right there, is fucking hilarious.

[Daylen]

its not education or being poor that gets gangs its a lack of work ethic. I'm from a rural area were most people were quite poor, heck are quite poor. There was no huge amount of violence, no gangs, none of it. why? most have a work ethic of some sort, at least enough to know they are only entitled to what they can make or earn for themselfs instead of steal or be given.

[CanadianWolverin...]

its not education or being poor that gets gangs its a lack of work ethic. I'm from a rural area were most people were quite poor, heck are quite poor. There was no huge amount of violence, no gangs, none of it. why? most have a work ethic of some sort, at least enough to know they are only entitled to what they can make or earn for themselfs instead of steal or be given.

...

These sioux (and other FN) gangs are in places that would be called rural areas as well for the most part and I hope you will notice in the article it says:

<snip>... giving rural Indian communities an inner-city look.
<snip>
Groups like Wild Boyz, TBZ, Nomads and Indian Mafia draw children from broken, alcohol-ravaged homes, like Mr. Wilson’s, offering brotherhood, an identity drawn from urban gangsta rap and self-protection.
<snip>
Mr. Wilson, an unemployed school dropout who lives with assorted siblings and partners in his mother’s ramshackle house, without running water, displayed a scar on his nose and one over his eye. “It’s just like living in a ghetto,” he said. “Someone’s getting beat up every other night.”

The Justice Department distinguishes the home-grown gangs on reservations from the organized drug gangs of urban areas, calling them part of an overall juvenile crime problem in Indian country that is abetted by eroding law enforcement, a paucity of juvenile programs and a suicide rate for Indian youth that is more than three times the national average.

Check out the italicized part, this guy who I am guessing has never been anywhere near a inner city ghetto assumes this is what ghetto life must be like, he identifies more with gangsta rap culture than his own. Still sure it is about 'work ethic' when these gangs are not economically driven? Check out the second page of the article and you get this:

Even as they seek to bolster policing, Pine Ridge leaders see their best long-term hope for fighting gangs in cultural revival.

“We’re trying to give an identity back to our youth,” said Melvyn Young Bear, the tribe’s appointed cultural liaison. “They’re into the subculture of African-Americans and Latinos. But they are Lakota, and they have a lot to be proud of.”

Mr. Young Bear, 42, is charged with promoting Lakota rituals, including drumming, chanting and sun dances. He noted that some Head Start programs were now conducted entirely in Lakota.

Michael Little Boy Jr., 30, of the village of Evergreen, said he had initially been tempted by gang life, but with rituals and purifying sweat lodges, “I was able to turn myself around.” He is emerging as a tribal spiritual leader, working with youth groups to promote native traditions.

Mr. Grant said a survey of young men in South Dakota reservations found that the approach might be helping.

This just isn't the same thing as lack of respect for a dollar earned and it is not like making ones dollars from criminal activities is for a lazy person, even when it comes to our fictional Shadowrun. If you are a lazy, inept criminal, probably the best you can hope for is an relatively comfy prison in fictional shows like My Name Is Earl or Trailer Park Boys. And lets not forget the tendency of certain groups of people getting thrown in prisons by judges in the first place contributing to such cultures, shall we? Racism takes all kinds of forms and consequences - perhaps if more people who weren't "white" just got community service rather than time inside in the past, things might be just a tad different in our present, eh?

[Tiny Deev]

No.
I believe he said he found, "a founder of the gang named Gaylord, was stabbed to death at 27" to be funny.
A man named Gaylord was a founder of a gang.
That, that right there, is fucking hilarious.

Exactly.
Thank you!

[LurkerOutThere]

I would presume Gaylord in spite of, or perhaps because of his name was a mean son of a bitch, unfortunately he found someone who was meaner and better with a knife.

[Kagetenshi]

Folks living in abject poverty on a reservation don't need a check any more than folks living in abject poverty in the middle of the projects need their checks on the first of every month. They need steady and reliable income, money management skills, and a sliver of hope that tomorrow ain't gonna suck as bad as yesterday.

A "check on the first of every month" is in what way different from a steady, reliable income? The rest of what you say is reasonable, but the first item is a very strange thing to include.

(You may have been thinking of the checks to members of the tribe, which are one-time and thus don't count as steady, reliable income, but that's not what you ended up actually saying)

~J

[pbangarth]

I would presume Gaylord in spite of, or perhaps because of his name was a mean son of a bitch, unfortunately he found someone who was meaner and better with a knife.

It might have been A Boy Named Sue.

[Draco18s]

A "check on the first of every month" is in what way different from a steady, reliable income?

Entitlement. They don't want to get a "real job" because their check comes every month and pays the bills. If they get a real job they have to work for their money and in some cases end up with less.

[etherial]

Entitlement. They don't want to get a "real job" because their check comes every month and pays the bills. If they get a real job they have to work for their money and in some cases end up with less.

We are no longer talking about anything resembling Shadowrun.

[Kagetenshi]

Entitlement. They don't want to get a "real job" because their check comes every month and pays the bills. If they get a real job they have to work for their money and in some cases end up with less.

That (if true) might make it bad societally, but in no way makes it not "a steady, reliable income".

~J