House Rules to Make Free Spirits Viable?, Balance Free Spirits with Party... Options

[Marduk]

I'm a fairly new GM for S4, but I think I have a good grip on the rules. However, I have no real idea how to handle this. One of my players is absolutely set on being a Free Spirit PC. I tried explaining how weak they are for the BP (especially given they're magicians), but he is completely taken with the idea. I don't want to just tell him no, but I also don't want him to be underpowered compared to the rest of the party. Are there any house rules or ideas anyone has tried to balance Free Spirits?

[Starmage21]

I'm a fairly new GM for S4, but I think I have a good grip on the rules. However, I have no real idea how to handle this. One of my players is absolutely set on being a Free Spirit PC. I tried explaining how weak they are for the BP (especially given they're magicians), but he is completely taken with the idea. I don't want to just tell him no, but I also don't want him to be underpowered compared to the rest of the party. Are there any house rules or ideas anyone has tried to balance Free Spirits?

Karma generation

OR

Let your other PCs get free spirit pacts because the Free Spirit PC has the pact powers. Then he brings the rest of the party up a level or two to make up for them having to pretty much carry him (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Sixgun_Sage]

I'm not saying this is RAW, it quite obviously isn't, but you can, as the gm change the bp cost. I'm doign same as part of my campaign to make the infected atleast semi-viable.

[Marduk]

Could you give me an example with Karma generation? So far, I've just used BP and, while I've read through Karma generation, I'm not sure I understand how it would make that big a difference.

[Jaid]

Could you give me an example with Karma generation? So far, I've just used BP and, while I've read through Karma generation, I'm not sure I understand how it would make that big a difference.

in the current incarnation of karmagen rules, race is free.

this is relatively insignificant when your race is ork and it's only saving you a a relatively small amount of karma.

and by relatively, i mean "not 250 BP worth of karma", not that it actually is insignificant, but merely that the 20 BP cost of the ork is much, much, much smaller than the 250 BP cost of free spirits (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[JoelHalpern]

How much Karmagen matters depends in part on whether you use SR4A modifications (as published in Germany). If you use the old rules, with attributes costing 3*level in Karma, and races being free, a free spirit has a LOT of points to spend.

If you use the revised rules, with attributes costing 5*level in Karma, and race costing karma equal to the lsited BP cost, Karmagen still produces somewhat more powerful Free Spirits than BP does, but not as much.

Yours,
Joel

[Shinobi Killfist]

Am I the only one who doesn't think free spirits suck as PCs. Being able to teleport and built in hardened armor is worth the points IMO.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Am I the only one who doesn't think free spirits suck as PCs. Being able to teleport and built in hardened armor is worth the points IMO.

Well, the hardened armor is handy, but you gotta remember that any method that blocks a normal spirit from accessing an area works as well for a free spirit, still an advantage but for what you pay, free spirits do get short-changed.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well, the hardened armor is handy, but you gotta remember that any method that blocks a normal spirit from accessing an area works as well for a free spirit, still an advantage but for what you pay, free spirits do get short-changed.

It would be rare when I would want to teleport into a place that is warded, unless my entire team could. I think there unique abilities are getting underrated.

[Sixgun_Sage]

It would be rare when I would want to teleport into a place that is warded, unless my entire team could. I think there unique abilities are getting underrated.

You won't hear me argue they aren't usefull, I cana think of dozens of tricks to pull with'em.... but for their cost? no thankee, I'll just be a conjuring specced mage and have my spirits do what needs doing.

[Shinobi Killfist]

You won't hear me argue they aren't usefull, I cana think of dozens of tricks to pull with'em.... but for their cost? no thankee, I'll just be a conjuring specced mage and have my spirits do what needs doing.

That is more of an issue of summoning and conjuring being stupidly overpowered in 4e. Sure I'll take the not even remotely close to balanced thing over the other thing that is fairly well balanced.

[Sixgun_Sage]

That is more of an issue of summoning and conjuring being stupidly overpowered in 4e. Sure I'll take the not even remotely close to balanced thing over the other thing that is fairly well balanced.

I think that is... really open for debate, summoning and conjuring are powerfull when done right, I'll even say that a smart player can do things with them that are game breakers if you don't watch it. That goes for very nearly everything though. I was pointing out that the activities allowed by playing a free spirit are atleast open as an option in other builds and not nearly as costly at that. Free Spirit characters are a cool idea but the base cost of playing them in terms of Bp is prohibitive.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I think that is... really open for debate, summoning and conjuring are powerfull when done right, I'll even say that a smart player can do things with them that are game breakers if you don't watch it. That goes for very nearly everything though. I was pointing out that the activities allowed by playing a free spirit are atleast open as an option in other builds and not nearly as costly at that. Free Spirit characters are a cool idea but the base cost of playing them in terms of Bp is prohibitive.

Any big entry fee is prohibitive. I just put teleportation and immunity to normal weapons in the worth it category.

As for summoning on anything but a total weak sauce build it is broken beyond belief. It is very easy with a average build to consistently summon spirits in the force 8+ category. Force 8+ spirits are so dang powerful it breaks the game when you can always have one on tap. If you go summoning focused and throw 15+ dice on your summon rolls you can probably push it to force 10ish though the drain could be nasty.

[hahnsoo]

Just let him know that you're a new GM and until you are ready for Free Spirits in your campaign, you don't let PCs play Free Spirits. While you should try to say "yes" to your players, every once in a while it's perfectly acceptable to say "no". In the case of character creation, it's your job to say "no" and veto things that won't fit in the game.

[Falconer]

Also, the rules for karma gen are getting changed by the errata.

I wonder why it's being held up.

But in the german printing of SR4a (which supposedly includes the errata). They changed karmagen so you pay the racial cost in karma (1x, not 2x), and it includes the 5x karma attribute costs.


Though really, if you're new, and the player is new, start him out w/ training wheels. Have him play a mage. (generally I don't recommend playing mages to new players in most any game, but it's doable... just be prepared to nudge him a bit about his mistakes).

Also, don't let one person use karma and the others use BP. Everyone should stick w/ the same generation method.

[kzt]

You can do cool things with a free spirit, but the most obvious is mutable form + realistic form + influence + Aura Masking. You can then stroll through most wards, appear to be anyone and convince people to do crazy things. This requires a LOT of points, as you need edge of 7, so you need force 7. And being able to astrally ooze through a ward and then materialize is pretty powerful.

[The Jopp]

Not to mention that Mutable Form is a very useful ability to spread chaos...

Materialize in a car beside the driver looking like Gigers ALIEN and HISS! in his/her face.
Materalize in the drivers LAP as a Ghoul and KISS him/her
Materalize as a Sasquatch in the back of the car, point and scream "FOLLOW THAT CAR!"
Switch a guards gun and take its place, when he draws his "gun" you say BANG! BANG!
Be a fake talking grenade
Transform into a golden bodyarmor- Must have a team member called Captain Power.
Invisible Human Body - wearing a Chameleon Suit and carrying weapons.
Transform into someones regular clothes - De-materalize among people...

[darthmord]

Not to mention that Mutable Form is a very useful ability to spread chaos...

Materialize in a car beside the driver looking like Gigers ALIEN and HISS! in his/her face.
Materalize in the drivers LAP as a Ghoul and KISS him/her
Materalize as a Sasquatch in the back of the car, point and scream "FOLLOW THAT CAR!"
Switch a guards gun and take its place, when he draws his "gun" you say BANG! BANG!
Be a fake talking grenade
Transform into a golden bodyarmor- Must have a team member called Captain Power.
Invisible Human Body - wearing a Chameleon Suit and carrying weapons.
Transform into someones regular clothes - De-materalize among people...

LOL, some of those are seriously laugh worthy. I could see a couple of my players pulling some of those stunts if they had a PC Free Spirit.

[Starmage21]

LOL, some of those are seriously laugh worthy. I could see a couple of my players pulling some of those stunts if they had a PC Free Spirit.

realistic form makes whatever form you take appear absolutely realistic right? Mutable form just gives you a huge disguise bonus to look like various people instead of just a unique individual?

So i think you only need realistic form to do all of the above funny things.

[Neraph]

realistic form makes whatever form you take appear absolutely realistic right? Mutable form just gives you a huge disguise bonus to look like various people instead of just a unique individual?

So i think you only need realistic form to do all of the above funny things.

Both actually, otherwise you would obviously be a spirit in those forms.

[Neraph]

I'm not saying this is RAW, it quite obviously isn't, but you can, as the gm change the bp cost. I'm doign same as part of my campaign to make the infected atleast semi-viable.

You haven't seen me make an Infected; I need no help...

But yeah, using Karmagen would make them much more powerful. Also, the ItNW is not very effective at the low force you're going to be if you want to broaden your skills out a little. Stats turn expensive really, really fast with Free Spirits.

[darthmord]

Realistic Form makes your Physical form realistic. If you chose human, you look like a human. You bleed like one. You even have a pulse like one. Internal Organs too. Not that they work per se, but it'd fool anyone looking at you.

Mutable form just allows you to change your form around.