Dispelling foci, A matter of missing rules Options

[Pendaric]

We have breaking foci and destroying enchantment by astral combat. But should an focus remain inactive, in view but unobtainable or should you be a grog er aspected magicain; how would you proceed?

So simply how would you proceed?

Enchanting is a process of slowly grounding magical energies. Surely then there should be a difficult but quick way of dispelling these energies by none full magicains?

[Ancient History]

Not sure what you're talking about. If it's not an active focus, you can't attack it from the Astral or blow it up from the astral. Otherwise, you can use a spell to blow it up from the physical (or shoot it, take a hammer to it, flush it down the toilet, etc.)

Shutting a focus off is something that used to be called Focus Blocking, which hasn't appeared in SR3 or SR4.

[pbangarth]

There is the spell Disrupt [Focus] (Digital Grimoire p. 16) which can be cast by anyone with the Spellcasting Skill.

[Pendaric]

I mean rather than destroying the object, you dispell the enchantment leaving it mundane old item.

A process that perhapes is secondary to breaking the focus but may have merit if you wish to re enchant or extricate a imp.

[BishopMcQ]

A mana-based Wreck [Focus] would destroy the astral presence without hurting the physical item...

[Karoline]

A mana-based Wreck [Focus] would destroy the astral presence without hurting the physical item...

I thought Foci were dual natured and thus what happened to their astral would happen to their physical.... On a side note, if that is true, can a mage carry around the astral form of a foci and the physical foci would float around?

[BishopMcQ]

When projecting, the astral form of a Weapon focus comes with the mage, but I don't think you can drag the physical version around to create a floating sword. (Your GM may allow it since there is nothing expressly prohibiting it or allowing it) Foci are dual natured when activated, when deactivated they aren't.

I generally don't cause damage from the astral to manifest physically, so if a mage is injured in astral copmbat, the damage modifiers carry in, but there are no open wounds and bruises that show up. If the astral form of a focus was attacked, I'd rule it the same way. That way if the astral form was destroyed, the physical object would not be damaged.

[darthmord]

I've always assumed the rules intended for the focus to take on the same state as its user. Thus if you were dual natured due to using Astral Perception, your foci would also be dual natured if active. But if you were going to use astral projection, you had to activate your foci first, then project. Once that happened, your foci would go from being dual natured to being projected since you took them with you astrally.

[Pendaric]

The spell option leaves adepts and cunjourers out in the cold.

My point is there is a hole in the world. It may be closed with rules that allow you yo do dispelling foci or you may say they cannot be dispelled only broken, perhapes only through a huge quest to Mount Doom for example.

Just trying to discern if it should, and if so, how it should be done?

As enchanting is open to all those with a magic stat, I would naturally look for it to be able to be dispelled/cancelled by all magicains and adepts.

Perhapes a modifed process for astral combat against items but running off the magic stat instead of charisma and only within line of sight? Blocked by wards and mana barriers?

[Karoline]

I've always assumed the rules intended for the focus to take on the same state as its user. Thus if you were dual natured due to using Astral Perception, your foci would also be dual natured if active. But if you were going to use astral projection, you had to activate your foci first, then project. Once that happened, your foci would go from being dual natured to being projected since you took them with you astrally.

Right, but what if a mage goes dual natured, thus his foci are dual natured, and then an astrally projecting mage runs up and grabs his power foci and flies off with it at 500 kph?

@Pendaric - I'm a bit confused. Your original post seemed to indicate you didn't like enchanting as an option for removing an enchantment, and that you were instead looking for a spell that did it instantly, but now you seem to be saying the opposite, that you don't want a spell to do it but instead want enchanting.

[nezumi]

Going off memory...

As long as the focus is active, the spell is 'part' of the focus. Attacking the spell and attacking the focus are the same thing. When one fails, so does the other.

However, a focus will lose its spell as soon as it's no longer in contact with the spell target (usually the caster). Kill the target, the focus becomes mundane again. Separate the two by any means and the spell fails. You can't separate them from the astral (because both the subject and the focus are dual-natured), but using a small elemental, you may be able to separate the focus from the astral of the target, then rejoin them discretely.

[Pendaric]

Right, but what if a mage goes dual natured, thus his foci are dual natured, and then an astrally projecting mage runs up and grabs his power foci and flies off with it at 500 kph?

@Pendaric - I'm a bit confused. Your original post seemed to indicate you didn't like enchanting as an option for removing an enchantment, and that you were instead looking for a spell that did it instantly, but now you seem to be saying the opposite, that you don't want a spell to do it but instead want enchanting.

My apologises for not making myself clear. My objective is to establish if there is a good reason to have rules for disenchanting a focus, open to all magically active as enchanting is open to all magically active, or not. And if so what they should be.

I do not want a spell solely as I feel this far to powerful, easy and restricted to spell casters when the object is to disenchant not destory the mundane vessel. This is in a fashion like astral combat vs objects open to all magical users with the astral perception/projection but not requiring the foci to be active.

As enchanting takes months to achieve, a disenchant spell even at high drain seems trite. For example a shatter shield spell only knocks down a perment ward temporarly. The disrupt spell on deactivates a focus not destroys it.

While a wreck (catagory) foci spell is possible, personally I would stipulate the spell would fall in this objective as it breaks the foci to break the enchantment.

The simple option is to say well you can not disenchant a foci with out breaking it. Simple and neatly closes the hole. But this works against type in that any thing that can be made can be unmade but perhapes at great cost.

Not to cloud the issue but I like th fact that some great magics throw up consequences thousands of years later, like the blood wode leading to chronic ostistiocuspis. To destroy the object by the power of plot you must journey to mount doom! But on small things, a wizzer should be able will effort to disenchant of focus, with out first bonding it.

[Moirdryd]

I daresay there could be just such a way...but physically ruining the Foci is far more time and cost effecient so i doubt anyone has ever tried. That said there may be something in Threats 2 under the scetion about Imps.

Indeed...I;ve just checked at it mentions that an Imp can only leave a Focus if the Focus or the Enchantment of a Focus is destroyed....

[Karoline]

I don't see why it wouldn't be something that falls under the arcana skill. It is all about dealing with foci and spells things and all other physical forms of magic. I don't see why it would be limited to simply creating them.

That said I don't see alot of cases were you would want to destroy the magical component of a foci but leave the physical one untouched. I mean maybe if someone enchanted a gold bar or a map or something similar, but even then there isn't a huge reason not to just re-bind it to someone else, or simple break the connection to the owning mage and then leave it unbound.

Anyway, why aside, I'd say an arcana test of some kind. Likely using similar roll requirements for creating the foci in the first place, perhaps slightly easier as breaking things is generally simpler than making them (Rome wasn't destroyed in a day, but it went down alot quicker than up.)

[Pendaric]

Ok the theory is sound and would proably use enchanting skill. Put some limits on it and you can save that virgin telesma from the imp or stiff that annoying mundane foci collector.

Thanks for the input.

Probably go with the astral combat rules vs objects replacing charisma with enchanting and make it line of sight. Available on the physical only.

[tisoz]

<snip> just re-bind it to someone else, or simple break the connection to the owning mage and then leave it unbound.

I think this is the answer for anyone with enchanting ability, which means they have a Magic Attribute and could re-bind it. Even mundanes could break the connection to the owning mage.

Both options require no new rules.

[pbangarth]

Re-binding or breaking the link still leaves it a magical device. I believe the OP wanted to go further.

[Pendaric]

That is an affirmative chummer.