BP Costs for Homebrew Races, How do you determine it? Options

[Guntherfuzz8]

Can anyone explain how you determine the BP cost for metatypes? I've got a homebrew in mind, but ain't sure how to determine the BP cost.

[Blackb1rd]

If you wouldn't mind describing this homebrew metatype it might give the community a base to work off of to help you determine an appropriate BP Cost.

[Guntherfuzz8]

No problem. Enhanced Human with these base stats...

Body 4
Agility 4
Reaction 1
Strength 4
Charisma 1
Intuition 1
Logic 1
Willpower 3

Low-Light Vision and Regeneration (homebrew version quality, 25 BP cost, regeneration check once per hour).

[Glyph]

Okay, so 110 BP worth of Attribute bonuses and 30 BP worth of qualities. I would say 150 BP, and still a bargain at that price. I'm giving it a higher rating than the sum of its parts because, like the Elf metatype, it appears to give all advantages, and no disadvantages. And like the Elf metatype (but even more so), the bonuses that it gets give it a boost to some of the more important Attributes.

[Blackb1rd]

I agree with Glyph for the most part, also I need some sort of information/backstory on the metatype, you know? like how it fits into the setting and what the character will look like and such. Otherwise the BP value that Glyph suggested is generous and reasonable i suppose, i would have made it a little higher. Also if there are any disadvantages to choosing the metatype then there may be cause to lower the BP cost of the metatype.

So what i'm asking for is basically a description of your race beyond numbers, i want to hear something about the race that fits into the setting. From what i can tell there are several advantages to starting as the described metatype, but to justify such weighty advantages i feel there need to be some specific disadvantages. Maybe traits that incur negative social modifiers, or an inherent intolerance for 'ware. Anything really, for inspiration you may want to look at the alternate character concepts in Runner's Companion but if there is no type of disadvantage to the metatype i would incur a minimum 150BP cost.

[Karoline]

150BP is beyond generous. Keep in mind that to raise a character's maximum and actual stat costs 20BP of quality and 10BP of stat points, so each +1 that a character gets as part of their metatype should be considered more than simply the 10 points it would cost to get it in the first place. I'd envision this somewhere in the 200ish range myself, especially since this race looks like it is custom tailored for combat. You could easily hit 11 agility, and almost match a troll in str and bod. The Wil bonus is just gravy for dealing with opposed magic by adding a few extra dice there, or just stat points you can save by leaving it at 3 for no points and throwing the extra into soft-maxing all the other stats.

I'm guessing this is one of those 'super soldier' type races? Bred and modded for optimal performance.

Remember that the difference between an elf and a dryad in BP cost is more than the cost of getting the dryad's abilities as an elf. Thus the designers built in a slight added cost for being able to bypass 35BP max on qualities.

[vacrix]

i'm not exactly sure how this is a homebrew race considering it's just a human w/ buff stats. do the bonuses in all the physical attributes make up for shitty mental stats (much like the pixie has decent mental stats and shitty body and str)? and just a suggestion, why make a homebrew race if it isn't going to be something awesome?

[Critias]

This whole "Enhanced Human, which just happens to be awesomely tweaked towards being a super soldier right out of the box," seems less like a "homebrew race" and more like a "guy with a bunch of bioware or genetech already implanted, that I didn't want to pay money or essence for."

The rules already tell you how to make a super soldier, and the tech's already there. Why not just use it, maintain the game balance that's already there, and not try to be cheesy and double up on silly combat stat boosts while having absolutely no downside?

[vacrix]

This whole "Enhanced Human, which just happens to be awesomely tweaked towards being a super soldier right out of the box," seems less like a "homebrew race" and more like a "guy with a bunch of bioware or genetech already implanted, that I didn't want to pay money or essence for."

The rules already tell you how to make a super soldier, and the tech's already there. Why not just use it, maintain the game balance that's already there, and not try to be cheesy and double up on silly combat stat boosts while having absolutely no downside?

couldn't of said taht better my self, but i didnt want to be rude or discouraging.

HEY, i've always been a sucker for avarials in dnd settings, maybe try to get one of those?

possible build:

btw avarials are winged elf variants (read some forgotten realms)

body 1
agi 3
str 2
reac 2
cha 1
int 1
log 3
wil 2

abilities: flying (pixie style except maybe faster cuz of the large wings), uneducated (like pixies), some kind of other penalty on social stuff because of the rarity of the species and the inherent fail they have at social interactions.

note: cha can be maxed naturally at 4 and str at 5 and body at 5. agi maxes naturally at 9, reac at pixie max and log willpower normal 6. intution normal 6.

[Karoline]

note: cha can be maxed naturally at 4 and str at 5 and body at 5. agi maxes naturally at 9, reac at pixie max and log willpower normal 6. intution normal 6.

That doesn't make alot of sense to raise the minimum for a stat and lower its maximum. That's like saying all of this race is real strong, but none of them are particularly strong. o.O

As a rule the difference between min and max is always 5 for the race itself. Edit: For stats that have a raised minimum. The difference is less for ones with a lowered maximum because you can't have lower than a 1.

[Sixgun_Sage]

That doesn't make alot of sense to raise the minimum for a stat and lower its maximum. That's like saying all of this race is real strong, but none of them are particularly strong. o.O

As a rule the difference between min and max is always 5 for the race itself. Edit: For stats that have a raised minimum. The difference is less for ones with a lowered maximum because you can't have lower than a 1.

With an avian race it kind of makes sense though, a certain degree of strength is needed for flight, but because of a lighter skeletal structure and streamlined musculature it might not have the same upper limit as a human.

[Karoline]

With an avian race it kind of makes sense though, a certain degree of strength is needed for flight, but because of a lighter skeletal structure and streamlined musculature it might not have the same upper limit as a human.

That's operating under an assumption that you're wing muscles couldn't be of a different strength from the rest of your body. I think it is quite reasonable that all Avians have enough wing muscles to let themselves fly, regardless of if they are otherwise body-builders or total wusses. Kind of like all humans have enough leg muscles to let themselves stand up regardless of the fact that they can barely bench press 10 kilos.

Also, wouldn't their light skeletal structure give them a penalty to bod for damage resistance? Kind of like bone lacing gives a bonus. I mean there isn't any real reason to say they just can't have a decent Bod, because there are plenty of other things that run off Bod besides ability to take damage. Maybe a -1 or -2 to Bod for the purpose of soaking damage and can't have any bone augmentations. Perhaps also limit armor to 2x Str for being able to remain airborne to represent the added weight.

[vacrix]

With an avian race it kind of makes sense though, a certain degree of strength is needed for flight, but because of a lighter skeletal structure and streamlined musculature it might not have the same upper limit as a human.

well i was basing this off a primitive people like in the forgotten realms setting (their removed from most of society). as for the str part, yeah i agree but i wasn't sure where to cut off stats and where to add them. maybe instead, they have a homebrew quality (natural selection as a name?) that gives them a bonus +1 str or something and keep the str at a natural 1?

Also, wouldn't their light skeletal structure give them a penalty to bod for damage resistance? Kind of like bone lacing gives a bonus. I mean there isn't any real reason to say they just can't have a decent Bod, because there are plenty of other things that run off Bod besides ability to take damage. Maybe a -1 or -2 to Bod for the purpose of soaking damage and can't have any bone augmentations. Perhaps also limit armor to 2x Str for being able to remain airborne to represent the added weight.

in response, i'd say that maybe theres a lowerclass avarial and then the higher class avarial formaybe a few more BP that has a few perks, mainly the lack of the Bod minuses, after all in a primitive society, the strong dominate.

in reflection, maybe their could be a seperate list of homebrewed qualities to add to this race, and maybe to critter characters? this would help balance the character if balance is desired, or help for depth

[Delarn]

No problem. Enhanced Human with these base stats...

Body 4
Agility 4
Reaction 1
Strength 4
Charisma 1
Intuition 1
Logic 1
Willpower 3

Low-Light Vision and Regeneration (homebrew version quality, 25 BP cost, regeneration check once per hour).

I would put Berserker, Combat Monster, Adicted Mild to Relaxing Drugs, Allergy Common Mild (Something), Diatery requirement(High Protein and Iron food).

Body 4/10
Agility 4/10
Reaction 1/5
Strength 4/10
Charisma 1/4
Intuition 1/5
Logic 1/5
Willpower 3/9

With all those it would make the BP cost down and really interesting to play...

[Karoline]

well i was basing this off a primitive people like in the forgotten realms setting (their removed from most of society). as for the str part, yeah i agree but i wasn't sure where to cut off stats and where to add them. maybe instead, they have a homebrew quality (natural selection as a name?) that gives them a bonus +1 str or something and keep the str at a natural 1?



in response, i'd say that maybe theres a lowerclass avarial and then the higher class avarial formaybe a few more BP that has a few perks, mainly the lack of the Bod minuses, after all in a primitive society, the strong dominate.

in reflection, maybe their could be a seperate list of homebrewed qualities to add to this race, and maybe to critter characters? this would help balance the character if balance is desired, or help for depth

Changing it to a quality doesn't really do much. Like I said, even a weak human can walk, so I figure even a weak Avian can fly. A weak human can't run very fast or long generally, and similarly a weak Avian wouldn't be able to fly for long or particularly fast, but they could still fly. That's why I don't see much need to have an increased minimum on the strength just to fly, and also why I suggested the Str x 2 max on armor and still being able to fly, to represent that muscles are needed to fly.

The bones thing is more one of pure ability. A human (real) couldn't fly even if we had wings because we're too heavy to lift ourselves with our muscles (We'd need pex that go two feet or so from our chest), thus in order for a human sized being to fly, it needs to be very light, and thus generally light bones. A 'noble' or 'high' race with denser bones would be unable to fly, and thus would be worse off. Instead the opposite would likely be true. The 'noble' group would have the lighter and more fragile bones, but be able to make use of vastly superior flight to outmaneuver the 'primitive' group. Also, intellect tends to be a much bigger factor in that kind of setup than raw strength. After all, from a raw strength perspective, human is about the worse spot you could possibly be, it is only our intellect that stops us going extinct.

[Platinum]

Changing it to a quality doesn't really do much. Like I said, even a weak human can walk, so I figure even a weak Avian can fly. A weak human can't run very fast or long generally, and similarly a weak Avian wouldn't be able to fly for long or particularly fast, but they could still fly. That's why I don't see much need to have an increased minimum on the strength just to fly, and also why I suggested the Str x 2 max on armor and still being able to fly, to represent that muscles are needed to fly.

The bones thing is more one of pure ability. A human (real) couldn't fly even if we had wings because we're too heavy to lift ourselves with our muscles (We'd need pex that go two feet or so from our chest), thus in order for a human sized being to fly, it needs to be very light, and thus generally light bones. A 'noble' or 'high' race with denser bones would be unable to fly, and thus would be worse off. Instead the opposite would likely be true. The 'noble' group would have the lighter and more fragile bones, but be able to make use of vastly superior flight to outmaneuver the 'primitive' group. Also, intellect tends to be a much bigger factor in that kind of setup than raw strength. After all, from a raw strength perspective, human is about the worse spot you could possibly be, it is only our intellect that stops us going extinct.

I counter that logic with 1. it is a fantasy setting, 2. they said the same things about bees 3. dragons would not be able to fly either.

[Matsci]

I counter that logic with 1. it is a fantasy setting, 2. they said the same things about bees 3. dragons would not be able to fly either.

1. No, it's a Cyberpunk setting with magic added.
2. The Person who said that about bees was a drunk grad student who assumed some very stupid things
3. Dragons explicitly fly with magic. The wings are more for maneuvering

[Kagetenshi]

More generally, I'd give the process like this:

Pick a high price. Add up whatever you can assign values to, benefit-wise, then pick a number meaningfully higher than that.

Now, examine the race. Pick a few roles (Streetsam, Adept, Mage, Decker, Rigger, Face, etc. etc. etc.) and determine if you have any excuse to build that role with the new race. I haven't created new races, in general, but if it's anything like the deal with preexisting races in SR3, you'll find that your race falls broadly into one of six categories.

The first two categories are those where the resulting race is too weak. Either it just isn't worth taking the race ever, or you need to really focus on the race's strength, to the point where simply declaring your race gives someone who knows about the race a good chance of guessing what you're going to play. In SR3, Orks are an example of something where they just have no niche, at least not one of macroscopic size; you should either make the character a Troll for better bonuses or a Dwarf for fewer penalties. SR3 Shapeshifters are an example of the latter; their disadvantages are just about crippling for anything other than an Awakened character, probably a mage of some kind. For these, simply lower the cost and run your analysis again.

The third category is more troublesome. It's similar to the second category, but where the niche they occupy is powerful. In SR3, Trolls are like this; if you're not going to play a melee tank, or a few other similarly narrow roles (archer, throwing-weapons cannon), you simply aren't going to make a Troll, but the niches I just described can be devastating. SR3 Elves are also like this, though they're edging down into Category 2 territory; you need to either be a Speedsam to get everything out of that point of Quickness, a Face to get everything out of those two points of Charisma, or a Speedsam/Face to… you get the idea. Unfortunately there's just no easy answer to this category; IMO it's a sign you need to fundamentally reconsider exactly what you're giving in terms of bonuses/penalties, so #3 is the "back to the drawing board" result.

The fourth category is mostly identified by the race keeping out of the other categories; this is the "just right" baby bear category. Go forth and be happy, or maybe find someone better at optimization than you are to check your work.

The fifth category is the "upsets the apple cart" category. The race by itself may or may not be too powerful, but either alone or in combination with other races it eliminates substantial parts of the role that another race once filled. In an SR3 game without Trolls, Orks are your big heavy-hitters (but only marginally, because Dwarves are ridiculous). In a game without Dwarves, Orks are your option for getting a little bit of extra hitting power without all the sacrifices of Trolls. In a game with both Trolls and Dwarves, Orks are your option for demonstrating that you didn't pay attention during chargen. Night Ones sorta do this to Elves, though the icky feeling you get when you make a Night One (and the fact that Elves suck to begin with) covers it up. This is another "back to the drawing board" one; if you insist on pushing through with it, at least have the grace to remove the now-pointless other race from the game.

The sixth category is the "just generally overpowered" category. If you want you can jack up the price and then reevaluate, but if you did the first step properly and still ended up with this you should probably just throw it all out and maybe even consider not starting over.

Those are my thoughts on the subject, brought to you by SR3R's recent attempt to rework the balance of metatypes.

~J

[Glyph]

A quick thought. This "super-soldier" metatype has a slow version of regeneration. Does that mean they have the same problems with implants that other regenerating races (shapeshifters, vampires, etc.) do (i.e. can only accept deltaware)? If that is the case, then this race is a lot less overpowered. At least as PCs.

[Whipstitch]

The fifth category is the "upsets the apple cart" category. The race by itself may or may not be too powerful, but either alone or in combination with other races it eliminates substantial parts of the role that another race once filled.

~J

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of making a metavariant that directly competes with other metas in a substantial way. If I were to create one, I'd concentrate less on physical stats and more on somewhat exotic secondary features. For example, I homebrewed up a "naiad" elf metavariant for an NPC once, and when a player decided that she was interested in rolling a character like that, I figured that it would cost just a bit more than a regular elf. The stats remained the same, but they had gills, underwater vision, the webbed hands/toes qualities plus the negative qualities of moodhair and bioluminescence. The advantages were nice within their niche, but glowing at night is a double edged sword. It's nice when you consider that it goes great with the natural low light vision, but it can sure make it tough to be stealthy, so I figured being a touch generous on the BP costs to facilitate the player's character concept wasn't a big deal in that case, particularly since I didn't really plan on having them run near very much water.

[Platinum]

1. No, it's a Cyberpunk setting with magic added.
2. The Person who said that about bees was a drunk grad student who assumed some very stupid things
3. Dragons explicitly fly with magic. The wings are more for maneuvering

Fantasy:
fan·ta·sy (fān'tə-sē, -zē) n. pl. fan·ta·sies
1. The creative imagination; unrestrained fancy. See Synonyms at imagination.
2. Something, such as an invention, that is a creation of the fancy.

1. Fantasy the word meaning not based on reality. It's creative imagination.
2. Thanks for the false information, but it was published entomologist that said that, based on mathematical equations from an engineer. It was to prove a point that science and logic isn't infallible.
3. Yes, dragons fly with magic, what is stopping new creatures from using something similar, and not flying completely on science?

[Whipstitch]

2. Thanks for the false information, but it was published entomologist that said that, based on mathematical equations from an engineer. It was to prove a point that science and logic isn't infallible.

Your own information is hardly any more accurate, so you shouldn't be so dismissive. You're basically talking about an urban legend that's been attributed to all manner of different sources over the years; the first time I ever heard about it the idea was sourced to a drunk foreigner at a party. It's honestly a pretty silly thing to be bringing up, since bumblebees CAN fly and science and logic does in fact know why. It's called dynamic stall. Anyway, as you said, handwaving flight into the game is a simple matter anyway, so I really don't see the point of either digression.

[Sixgun_Sage]

Changing it to a quality doesn't really do much. Like I said, even a weak human can walk, so I figure even a weak Avian can fly. A weak human can't run very fast or long generally, and similarly a weak Avian wouldn't be able to fly for long or particularly fast, but they could still fly. That's why I don't see much need to have an increased minimum on the strength just to fly, and also why I suggested the Str x 2 max on armor and still being able to fly, to represent that muscles are needed to fly.

The bones thing is more one of pure ability. A human (real) couldn't fly even if we had wings because we're too heavy to lift ourselves with our muscles (We'd need pex that go two feet or so from our chest), thus in order for a human sized being to fly, it needs to be very light, and thus generally light bones. A 'noble' or 'high' race with denser bones would be unable to fly, and thus would be worse off. Instead the opposite would likely be true. The 'noble' group would have the lighter and more fragile bones, but be able to make use of vastly superior flight to outmaneuver the 'primitive' group. Also, intellect tends to be a much bigger factor in that kind of setup than raw strength. After all, from a raw strength perspective, human is about the worse spot you could possibly be, it is only our intellect that stops us going extinct.

All of this is true of course but if you used multiple muscle groups more evenly dispersed over the back and chest muscles something like a compromise between a bat's wing structure and a bird's in terms of mechanisms.... well, it could potentially allow for the body to fit enough muscles in for the wings in the upper body at the expense of limiting the upper limit of other muscles in terms of growth before it impedes on wing function. This would also go a long way towards explaining the density of the bones since such a method of flight wouldn't allow for the softest of landings... in any case this is all arbitrary though, you can find a reason for just about anything.

[Neraph]

Also, wouldn't their light skeletal structure give them a penalty to bod for damage resistance? Kind of like bone lacing gives a bonus.

Yes and no. Hollow bones actually contribute greatly to tensile strength, giving an overall increase to durability compared to otherwise hollow bones, all the while reducing the mass of the creature in question.

Compare how easy it is to damage a bird with how easy it is to damage a rodent. I've seen birds fly full-speed into windows, stand there a couple seconds, then fly off again. If I were to pelt the window at the same speed with a rodent of comparable size, the rodent would not survive the encounter.

[Karoline]

I don't know that it has alot to do with their bones though. Birds are designed to move at speeds much higher than rats, and so are better able to cope with a collision. I'd imagine there is more at work than the bones themselves, though that could certainly be part of it. I'd imagine a less dense bone is more flexable, so that might help with blunt impact provided that your organs aren't in the way.