Religious Characters, Anyone ever run one? Options

[Neraph]

All of which bounces around my question. You are saying that any Christian who shoots someone doesn't count as Christian. there are a whole bunch of people in the US military right now who'd probably not agree with you. Also to go back to my post, then the extreme case of Muslim's -the wack jobs not normal folks_ would actually be blessed to kill infidels.

... You do know that the Koran says explicitly more than 100 times to kill various people wherever they are found right? If they don't convert, a good Muslim is actually explicitly ordered to kill a non-believer, and a good muslim is actually ordered to kill someone who leaves the faith (I forget the proper term at the moment).

Christians, Jews, and Muslims (who all follow the 10 commandments)

Um... What part of bowing to a temple where a pagan moon deity statue still stands is "Thou shall not bow to any graven image"? This also applies to the Crucifix, in fact...

Now, this is not to mean all Muslims are evil, or all Jews are evil because they don't believe the Messiah has come yet. Not at all. I'm just pointing out what their own religious texts say, and where many are in error for believing something to the contrary.

[pbangarth]

As Neraph clearly demonstrates in among his delightful attempts to convince us that all religious beliefs but his own are heretical, people tend to believe what they are told to believe by their respective authority figures. So, if one's own particular dogma says "Thou shalt not kill", that is what he will hold to be true. His actions will be guided accordingly. If another dogma says "Thou shalt not murder", then the pursuant behaviour will be different according to the definition of murder.

In the world of Shadowrun, these two different words, "kill" and "murder" would have profoundly different effects on the behaviour of a character to whom religious dogma is important. He would even have to work his way through the niceties of involvement in killing. "Does my action in the Matrix aid and abet the death of guards in the facility? If so, is killing them when they are shooting at my teammates murder?"

[Daylen]

kill them all and let Glod sort them out?

Glod the mortician works hard you know.

[Neraph]

As Neraph clearly demonstrates in among his delightful attempts to convince us that all religious beliefs but his own are heretical, people tend to believe what they are told to believe by their respective authority figures.

It's interesting you come to that conclusion, as all I've tried to do is lay out facts, such as: This is what their holy book says, and this is what they do. If those facts make them seem heretical, I assert the simple conclusion that maybe that is because they are in fact being heretical, and that that conclusion is one that you made based only on facts that I have disclosed.


... In Shadowrun.
EDIT: Edited to remain on-topic.

[Whipstitch]

Honestly, a lot of the people out there who profess to be of a certain denomination but do not practice often are being heretical or sinning according to the laws of the faith they claim to adhere to. There's a lot of people out there for whom faith is practically vestigial. They acknowledge they come from a certain background but they do not practice and when push comes to shove they're not even particularly tolerant of many religious practices.

For example, I know plenty of people who claim to be tolerant of other religions (or even of a faith they used to adhere to) yet insist that faith should be held private. In a lot of cases, this is like saying you're fine with black people as long as their skin isn't too dark. For an Evangelical, letting someone live a pagan lifestyle without trying to intervene is tantamount to ignoring the struggles of a drowning man. And yet many people choose to try and ignore the basic idea that some beliefs, personal or not, do in fact conflict with our own beliefs, and this makes people very, very uncomfortable indeed.

[Tyro]

Honestly, a lot of the people out there who profess to be of a certain denomination but do not practice often are being heretical or sinning according to the laws of the faith they claim to adhere to. There's a lot of people out there for whom faith is practically vestigial. They acknowledge they come from a certain background but they do not practice and when push comes to shove they're not even particularly tolerant of many religious practices.

For example, I know plenty of people who claim to be tolerant of other religions (or even of a faith they used to adhere to) yet insist that faith should be held private. In a lot of cases, this is like saying you're fine with black people as long as their skin isn't too dark. For an Evangelical, letting someone live a pagan lifestyle without trying to intervene is tantamount to ignoring the struggles of a drowning man. And yet many people choose to try and ignore the basic idea that some beliefs, personal or not, do in fact conflict with our own beliefs, and this makes people very, very uncomfortable indeed.

QFFT. Quoted for fucking truth.

[Neraph]

Honestly, a lot of the people out there who profess to be of a certain denomination but do not practice often are being heretical or sinning according to the laws of the faith they claim to adhere to. There's a lot of people out there for whom faith is practically vestigial. They acknowledge they come from a certain background but they do not practice and when push comes to shove they're not even particularly tolerant of many religious practices.

For example, I know plenty of people who claim to be tolerant of other religions (or even of a faith they used to adhere to) yet insist that faith should be held private. In a lot of cases, this is like saying you're fine with black people as long as their skin isn't too dark. For an Evangelical, letting someone live a pagan lifestyle without trying to intervene is tantamount to ignoring the struggles of a drowning man. And yet many people choose to try and ignore the basic idea that some beliefs, personal or not, do in fact conflict with our own beliefs, and this makes people very, very uncomfortable indeed.

Thank you for helping voice what point I was trying to make.

In the same vein, many, many people who are Muslim are in fact commiting heresy. The core beliefs they follow are actually the bloodthirsty teachings of people we now know as "Islamic Extremists." These, however, are actually "Islamic Funamentalists," attempting to follow their religious convictions to the best of their ability. It is in fact the massive multitudes who profess Islam is a "religion of peace" who are the "extremists," as these teachings are so radically away from their holy texts it is laughable.

For example, I have an Islamic family living above me in my appartment. My family and I are (if you couldn't figure it out) Christian. The Muslims upstairs are actually commanded to kill my family and myself if we refuse to convert, which we do refuse. They've been living above us for about a year. They are Islam's version of "Sunday Baptists," and in fact, much of the Muslim population are, in the same way that much of the many Christian denomonations (or cults that masquerade as Christianity - I could go on about this but won't here [unless provoked]) are hypocritical.

Again, all I'm saying here is that the most common form of Islam is actually a hypocritical, heretical, false belief, based on their own beliefs. The common form of Islam is, however, completely acceptable to "modern" society, however, and they are now trying to re-write or edit the Koran to saying more politically correct things, in the same way that Mormonism has left its racist teachings in more recent times (they used to teach, very emphatically, that black people were cursed by the mark of Cain and Ham and could not attain the priesthood).

[Ayeohx]

One of my players' characters went Catholic when a dear friend (an NPC) was raped and murdered in the alley next to her house. My games are so cheery!

[Whipstitch]

I'd like to point out as well that being a heretic doesn't mean you can't have deep convictions or avoid hypocrisy. For example, Martin Luther was branded a heretic, but he obviously took his faith very seriously indeed. Whether it is wrong to be a heretic or not is a matter of perspective. So you can be a heretic without necessarily being a hypocrite, but beyond a certain point you're not really in the same group as those who consider you a heretic anymore, and so you get into the land of schisms and tussles over who gets to carry the mantle of the true faith.

For example, I was raised Catholic and it'd be frankly silly of me to insist that this fact doesn't color the way I perceive the world and the way I interpret moral issues and ethics. But I'm essentially an agnostic/atheist/whatever these days and so it would hit me as rather disingenuous to call myself a Catholic. As you can imagine, I think it'd be rather daft to continue to follow an old religion to the letter if you have some real moral misgivings about some of the teachings, so I don't really think it's wrong, per se, to reject ideas. But with that said, that doesn't make me any less of a heretic. I just happen to be fine with this, that's all.

[pbangarth]

It's interesting you come to that conclusion, as all I've tried to do is lay out facts, such as: This is what their holy book says, and this is what they do. If those facts make them seem heretical, I assert the simple conclusion that maybe that is because they are in fact being heretical, and that that conclusion is one that you made based only on facts that I have disclosed.

Never mind, Neraph. And sorry. I have made so many rules and interpretation errors today, I think I should shut up and go away. I would be interested in knowing where in the Quran (old, new or otherwise) a Muslim is commanded to kill someone who does not convert to Islam. If you have that info, please share.

[Summerstorm]

For example, I have an Islamic family living above me in my appartment. My family and I are (if you couldn't figure it out) Christian. The Muslims upstairs are actually commanded to kill my family and myself if we refuse to convert, which we do refuse. They've been living above us for about a year. They are Islam's version of "Sunday Baptists," and in fact, much of the Muslim population are, in the same way that much of the many Christian denomonations (or cults that masquerade as Christianity - I could go on about this but won't here [unless provoked]) are hypocritical.

I don't think so (i am not a specialist) but i read a bit of the Koran... and the islamic faith seemed like a thinly veiled political defensive tool. It is highly reactionist and merciless, but only if provoked. Since they are in YOUR land, and you are not attacking or converting them you get a second and third chance as "owners of the the scriptum" (like jews too) They will keep you alive and you even get a chance to accept Allah even after you died.... also you have to pay more taxes *g*

Back on topic: With the event of magic there a lot of old and strange new religions coming up... Playing an religious Jedi or a believer of the northern strong gods... is awesome and doesn't really barr them from beeing a murderous runner *g*

[Neraph]

Never mind, Neraph. And sorry. I have made so many rules and interpretation errors today, I think I should shut up and go away. I would be interested in knowing where in the Quran (old, new or otherwise) a Muslim is commanded to kill someone who does not convert to Islam. If you have that info, please share.

I'll track it down.

Back on topic: With the event of magic there a lot of old and strange new religions coming up... Playing an religious Jedi or a believer of the northern strong gods... is awesome and doesn't really barr them from beeing a murderous runner *g*

Actually, I had a Fomori "street sam" mystic adept set up with the character concept of a Grey Knight Terminator that would be totally awsome and fun to play.

[Redjack]

4. Discussion of politics, religion, and sex are prohibited, except as they directly pertain to Shadowrun or another game. Discussions on these subjects will be watched closely, and any innapropriate posts may result in warnings or suspensions.

This thread has ventured far beyond a hypothetical discussion about religious Shadowrun characters and into that area specifically prohibited by TOS. We will review posts for the above mentioned potential warnings and suspensions. Continue to digress on this path at your own risk.

[Tyro]

This thread has ventured far beyond a hypothetical discussion about religious Shadowrun characters and into that area specifically prohibited by TOS. We will review posts for the above mentioned potential warnings and suspensions. Continue to digress on this path at your own risk.

My apologies. I will endeavor to abide by this in the future.

[Whipstitch]

Same here. Jot me down as having a warning if you want, but I'll consider this post a warning regardless.

[pbangarth]

Got the message.

[Neraph]

In order to properly roleplay a real-world faith in a game, I believe you must actually understand that real-world faith (or as many do take the easy route and roleplay a "stereotypical" member of that faith - but a stereotype is not a good representation of the whole). It was my intention from the start to correct common misconceptions of real-world faiths (which Shadowrun does in fact use) in order to better enrich a player's experience whilst playing a character of said faith. In that way, my conversations made about religions on this thread were solely intended to explain the mechanics of said religions so that a person would have a better grasp of how they work to roleplay them easier. It is the same concept behind explaining how wireless commlink connections would theoretically work (and interestingly, there are huge advancements being made right now to allow cellphones to mesh together in mobile wireless webs) to give a player a better understanding of that aspect of the game.

I repeat: It has been, and remains, my sole intent on this thread to explain the real-world religious faiths that are mentioned in the game of Shadowrun so that any person who decides to play a character of one of the faiths I have discussed will be better equipped to roleplay that character within the bounds of that religion. If you so choose to review some of my posts, I even gave examples of how to act within one of the religions I have discussed that would allow a player to perform "dubious" actions while still being able to justify their actions within their faith.

If this violates the Terms of Service, then I apologize. I do believe, however, that I am still within the Terms of Service, as the point of my posts was designed to help people understand religions so that they may better represent them in the game of Shadowrun. It was never my intent to convict others of their faiths or try and convert people to my faith (in fact, I have remained very vague of my faith to this purpose - there are many, many denomonations of "Christian" out there, and I seriously doubt anyone will be able to guess mine. How could I therefore convert someone to my faith if I do not even say what exactly my faith is?).

[Tyro]

In order to properly roleplay a real-world faith in a game, I believe you must actually understand that real-world faith (or as many do take the easy route and roleplay a "stereotypical" member of that faith - but a stereotype is not a good representation of the whole). It was my intention from the start to correct common misconceptions of real-world faiths (which Shadowrun does in fact use) in order to better enrich a player's experience whilst playing a character of said faith. In that way, my conversations made about religions on this thread were solely intended to explain the mechanics of said religions so that a person would have a better grasp of how they work to roleplay them easier. It is the same concept behind explaining how wireless commlink connections would theoretically work (and interestingly, there are huge advancements being made right now to allow cellphones to mesh together in mobile wireless webs) to give a player a better understanding of that aspect of the game.

I repeat: It has been, and remains, my sole intent on this thread to explain the real-world religious faiths that are mentioned in the game of Shadowrun so that any person who decides to play a character of one of the faiths I have discussed will be better equipped to roleplay that character within the bounds of that religion. If you so choose to review some of my posts, I even gave examples of how to act within one of the religions I have discussed that would allow a player to perform "dubious" actions while still being able to justify their actions within their faith.

If this violates the Terms of Service, then I apologize. I do believe, however, that I am still within the Terms of Service, as the point of my posts was designed to help people understand religions so that they may better represent them in the game of Shadowrun. It was never my intent to convict others of their faiths or try and convert people to my faith (in fact, I have remained very vague of my faith to this purpose - there are many, many denomonations of "Christian" out there, and I seriously doubt anyone will be able to guess mine. How could I therefore convert someone to my faith if I do not even say what exactly my faith is?).

He has a point. I'll still be more careful in the future, however.

[Redjack]

Religion and politics are my two favorite subjects - and two of the three that will bring people to violence the quickest in a discussion. I also understand the problem with the premise of this thread and avoiding discussion religion. I would love to weigh in on the topics above, biting my keyboard not to.

Sometimes discretion really is the better part of valor.

[Tyro]

Religion and politics are my two favorite subjects - and two of the three that will bring people to violence the quickest in a discussion. I also understand the problem with the premise of this thread and avoiding discussion religion. I would love to weigh in on the topics above, biting my keyboard not to.

Sometimes discretion really is the better part of valor.

I feel similarly, but I would like to point out to our credit that nobody was trolling or flaming. Some potentially offensive things were said, but I didn't see a single post with an antagonistic feel to it. I get the feeling you noticed this too, as the thread has not been locked.

[LivingOxymoron]

I feel similarly, but I would like to point out to our credit that nobody was trolling or flaming. Some potentially offensive things were said, but I didn't see a single post with an antagonistic feel to it. I get the feeling you noticed this too, as the thread has not been locked.

It was getting pretty close, though. Generally, whenever an adherent of a particular religion (or none) begins to weigh in with absolute statements regarding the characteristics of a religion not his/her own (or even their own), things tend to go downhill, fast. Religion, after all, is really not about absolutes but about faith, belief, interpretation, and the practice thereof. One word misspoken or misinterpreted is what starts the flame war. As a Religious Studies student, I have seen this happen in nearly every forum, from the classroom to online.

As the person who started this thread (for whatever that's worth), I agree with the admin's ruling on this. I honestly hope that we can continue with this thread, sharing stories of what we have done as players with our characters, and maybe offering advice to other players based on our own religous backgrounds explicitly within the context of the game.

Thanks.

[Tyro]

It was getting pretty close, though. Generally, whenever an adherent of a particular religion (or none) begins to weigh in with absolute statements regarding the characteristics of a religion not his/her own (or even their own), things tend to go downhill, fast. Religion, after all, is really not about absolutes but about faith, belief, interpretation, and the practice thereof. One word misspoken or misinterpreted is what starts the flame war. As a Religious Studies student, I have seen this happen in nearly every forum, from the classroom to online.

As the person who started this thread (for whatever that's worth), I agree with the admin's ruling on this. I honestly hope that we can continue with this thread, sharing stories of what we have done as players with our characters, and maybe offering advice to other players based on our own religous backgrounds explicitly within the context of the game.

Thanks.

Seconded. I just wanted to point out that this thread lasted much longer without flames breaking out than those of this type typically do.

[LivingOxymoron]

Seconded. I just wanted to point out that this thread lasted much longer without flames breaking out than those of this type typically do.

Indeed. I'm actually kind of impressed by that fact.

[Yogo Ted]

On the original topic there's plenty of ways to play religious shadowrunners, just probably hard to play ones that are entirely faithful to their religions tenants. But then, as has been stated, there's plenty of people who are religious without following every rule their religion has laid out.

[Tyro]

Indeed. I'm actually kind of impressed by that fact.

Neraph and I have a history of amicable sparring over religion on these boards, if it helps you to understand why.