SURGE class ... over 3 ? Options

[Glyph]

The rules don't really have any ambiguity. It flat out states: "If the player chooses Metagenetic qualities with a total BP value greater than the thresholds, the excess cost or bonus BP count towards the character's normal limits for qualities."

It's fine if people want to house rule it, but the RAW is fairly clear.

[Karoline]

Really? I've always figured it was like that but I don't remember actually reading that in the book.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Really? I've always figured it was like that but I don't remember actually reading that in the book.

Yep... Page 73, Last Sentence, 2nd Paragraph, under the Heading of Changeling Qualities...

Keep the Faith

[Karoline]

Cool, that makes it much simpler. I've seen a few threads asking about what happens if you go over 30 (Ie can you do a 60/45 split or a 60/30 split without actually paying any more BP or running into your quality BPs any more) and kept looking through that section but never noticed that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Cool, that makes it much simpler. I've seen a few threads asking about what happens if you go over 30 (Ie can you do a 60/45 split or a 60/30 split without actually paying any more BP or running into your quality BPs any more) and kept looking through that section but never noticed that.

Null Perspiration Chummer...

Keep the Faith

[KarmaInferno]

Up to 50 points each of positive and negative qualities, not counting the Surge III quality, isn't enough for you?

Wow.



-np

[Delarn]

After character creation when the character pick latent SURGE and get 6 edge succes ... What should I do ?

[Karoline]

After character creation when the character pick latent SURGE and get 6 edge succes ... What should I do ?

Well, the simplest answer is to simply read what RAW says:

If he scores
one or more hits, the number of hits (up to three) determines the
SURGE type (e.g. 2 hits would be Class II SURGE) the character
acquires when turning into a changeling.

[Saint Sithney]

After character creation when the character pick latent SURGE and get 6 edge succes ... What should I do ?

Turn him into a pumpkin.

[Karoline]

Turn him into a pumpkin.

Squashes are much cooler though. And with 6 hits on a DP that maxes at 8, I think the player deserves the cooler gourd.

[Draco18s]

Turn him into a pumpkin.

What pumpkin?

[Jhaiisiin]

The rules don't really have any ambiguity. It flat out states: "If the player chooses Metagenetic qualities with a total BP value greater than the thresholds, the excess cost or bonus BP count towards the character's normal limits for qualities."

It's fine if people want to house rule it, but the RAW is fairly clear.

Except that "Total" cost is what you end up actually having to pay bp for. I take 30 points positive and 15 points negative and the "total" is 15 points, as that's what I'd actually have to dish out in bp costs. (+30 + -15 = 15). So 60 positive and 45 negative also equals 15. Not to mention those stupidly included words "at least" in the surge 3 text. There is room for interpretation, whether people want to see it or not, and to my knowledge no dev has ever come forward to specifically debunk this alternate way of reading it (which based on the actual *words* is perfectly valid).

[Delarn]

Thanks ... answered ...

[Omenowl]

As for the surge III quality I do feel the intention is that the player can get more than 30 points if he sticks with a theme without paying with extra karma or BP. A character who wants to play a batman would have bio sonar, wings and probably fangs. The lets say a surged character is a stoneman then granite skin, toughness, high pain tolerance and resistance to pathogens/toxins would seem appropriate. Ganesa styled characters would have shiva arms, proboscis, rhino hide, larger tusks and broad auditory spectrum. The GM and player would work out the negative traits that match the theme. It prevents players from cherry picking good traits.

So what you have not mentioned is what is the players theme for his surge? At a level 3 surge he need to pick a theme working with the GM to determine what he has transformed into. Allow the player to pick traits that seem theme appropriate and if they seem excessive give the player the choice to pay karma at a future date gaining the new qualities when the karma is paid or to go into Karma debt. Ensure no new surge qualities can be purchased unless they are theme appropriate.

[Glyph]

Except that "Total" cost is what you end up actually having to pay bp for. I take 30 points positive and 15 points negative and the "total" is 15 points, as that's what I'd actually have to dish out in bp costs. (+30 + -15 = 15). So 60 positive and 45 negative also equals 15. Not to mention those stupidly included words "at least" in the surge 3 text. There is room for interpretation, whether people want to see it or not, and to my knowledge no dev has ever come forward to specifically debunk this alternate way of reading it (which based on the actual *words* is perfectly valid).

No, there is no ambiguity. Let me quote the sentence right before what I previously quoted. "Metagenetic qualities chosen in this fashion do not count toward the 35 BP cap on qualities, as long as they remain within the totals defined by the Changeling quality." Got it? Anything over the quality, positive or negative, applies to the cap.


@Delarn: If you think getting 6 successes on the Edge test should give your player an exceptional result, how about this for an idea. Rather than the player picking the positive traits and the GM picking the negative traits, as it is normally, allow him to pick the negative traits, too.

[Omenowl]

You are misapplying the rule as there is not a cap for SURGE III as long as it applies to the theme. The cap is not 30 positive metagenic qualities for Surge III. The 30 points is a minimum. It is though is a collaborative effort between GM and player to determine what the character's powers are to be. However, should the player desire to have metagenic qualities outside of their concept this would fall outside of the SURGE III it would then apply to the 35 point cap.

If my ganesha example also wanted setae this would clearly fall outside of the character concept and apply 10 points to the 35 point cap for a total of 15 points for the surge and 10 points for setae.

Again SURGE III is an approved GM concept worked out with the player in advance to make sure the concept is met with a minimum of 30 points of positive traits and 15 points of negative traits.

If there is confusion then does the minimum apply to both the positive and negative or only the positive.

[Karoline]

It'd be really nice if these books were written in an unambiguous language. It would likely suck reading them, but it gets tiring seeing such simple things being so drastically differently interpreted.

Personally I don't think it is particularly unambiguous. SURGE III allows you to get 30 points of positive and 15 points of negative qualities. It also allows you to get more metagenic qualities, but as the previous line states, they count towards your 35 point max on positive/negative qualities. Perhaps the biggest reason I believe this over the idea that the 15 point quality could cover more than the 30/15 points is that there is no guideline written out in the quality for what kind of ratio you have to maintain when going beyond 30/15 points. Can you just keep grabbing qualities forever for free? Do you have to keep a 15 point spread? Do you have to keep a 2:1 ratio? It never once mentions anything like this, fairly clearly indicating that no such thing would ever be needed because the premise under which it would be used doesn't exist.

The other big reason I don't think it is intended to be read as being able to bypass the 30/15 points without hitting the 35 point max is that you could easily get ridiculously powerful characters with that. Sure, having a laundry list of negative qualities would kind of suck, but darn, the advantages would be amazing. There is a reason they put in the 35/35 quality limit, and that is because qualities offer powerful advantages. I mean lets say I'm making an arctic cat concept under the "just go on forever" idea. Cats are obviously agile, so I need the +1 agi quality. They have balance tails and insulating fur. They are also adapted to survive in cold weather and have balance receptors. Cats are known to react quickly, so I should likely get the +1 rea quality as well. Oh, and don't forget the retractable claws and fangs, no cat is complete without those, and low-light vision, how could I forget that? And the bad parts? Well... they have fairly extravagant eyes... other than that... nope, none of the other negative qualities really fit, so I should get those 80ish points of good qualities for just 5 points of bad, right?

[Omenowl]

And comparing said arctic cat to the available shapeshifters.

Your cat could have impaired charisma, logic, intelligence and willpower. The arctic cat would have extravagant eyes, nocturnal and environmental intolerance to heat. Cats have poor stamina when compared to humans (as do most animals) so reduced ability to withstand fatigue is perfectly acceptable as well.

The rules are clear
Surge I 10 points positive/5 points negative
Surge II 20 points positive/10 points negative
Surge III 30 points positive/15 point negative at a minimum related to a theme. What level III vs I and II is that is requires a theme and all positive and negative traits are applied to that theme with GM approval.

Anything that exceeds those caps goes under the 35 point cap limit with each surge level already counting towards 5 points for that. In this case for SURGE III it would be things outside of the theme as there is not an official cap.

To me surge is to create new metavariants or Batman style opponents such as Poison Ivy, Killer Croc, etc.

From a GM standpoint. Unless you want to spend lots of time working with a player to flesh out a concept don't allow SURGE III or amnesia (25 point).

[Delarn]

No, there is no ambiguity. Let me quote the sentence right before what I previously quoted. "Metagenetic qualities chosen in this fashion do not count toward the 35 BP cap on qualities, as long as they remain within the totals defined by the Changeling quality." Got it? Anything over the quality, positive or negative, applies to the cap.


@Delarn: If you think getting 6 successes on the Edge test should give your player an exceptional result, how about this for an idea. Rather than the player picking the positive traits and the GM picking the negative traits, as it is normally, allow him to pick the negative traits, too.

That's exactly what we did, and we took the less cumbersome possible: Cat Eyes, Unhusual hair (Black Mane), Animal feature (Cat like face) (http://www.autumnchronicle.com/images/CivilWarGeneralLionMan.jpg ) Something like that.

[Delarn]

You are misapplying the rule as there is not a cap for SURGE III as long as it applies to the theme. The cap is not 30 positive metagenic qualities for Surge III. The 30 points is a minimum. It is though is a collaborative effort between GM and player to determine what the character's powers are to be. However, should the player desire to have metagenic qualities outside of their concept this would fall outside of the SURGE III it would then apply to the 35 point cap.

If my ganesha example also wanted setae this would clearly fall outside of the character concept and apply 10 points to the 35 point cap for a total of 15 points for the surge and 10 points for setae.

Again SURGE III is an approved GM concept worked out with the player in advance to make sure the concept is met with a minimum of 30 points of positive traits and 15 points of negative traits.

If there is confusion then does the minimum apply to both the positive and negative or only the positive.

Nope, There you are wrong, the maximum point to be in SURGE 3 is 30/15 else it would have to be counted into the Qualities maximum BP. But Like I say the rule I'm asking is for Latent Metagenics and it's already answered. Max 3 for the class and then The other 3 succes has been used to choose the Negative part.

[Karoline]

Surge III 30 points positive/15 point negative at a minimum related to a theme. What level III vs I and II is that is requires a theme and all positive and negative traits are applied to that theme with GM approval.

Except that nowhere in the rules does it make any mention of a theme being picked and it doesn't mention anything about GM approval outside the norm.

[Heath Robinson]

Except that nowhere in the rules does it make any mention of a theme being picked

Class III SURGE (15 BP):
Class III includes the most severe modifications. Characters with this SURGE level have usually undergone serious and often painful transformations. The gamemaster and character should think of a certain theme (like one of the beastmen, plant-human hybrids, or Ganesha-type changelings described in the fiction) and choose appropriate Metagenetic qualities from the list or make up their own as they deem fit. The character must take at least 30 BP worth of Positive Metagenetic qualities and 15 BP worth of Negative Metagenetic qualities.

[Delarn]

Hum ... Then it's a whole new way to see the rule ! I'll have to check with my player.

[tagz]

p73
...
Metagenetic qualities chosen in this fashon do not count toward the 35 BP cap on qualities, as long as they remain within the totals defined by the Changeling quality. If the player chooses Metagenetic qualities with a total BP value greater then the given thresholds, the excess cost of bonus BP count toward the character's normal limits for qualities.

p 74
...
the character must take at least 30 BP worth of Positive Metagenetic qualities and 15 BP worth of Negative Metagenetic qualities.


As much as I'd like to agree with Karoline and Gliph based on game balance, I think the rules support Omenowl's interpretation.

The key difference is the change of wording from Surge I & II from "must take" to "at least" in Surge III. It is no longer a set amount but a minimum. However the part about exceeding limits is outside of Surge III description, so it must apply to all somehow.

I can only see it as this:
With Surge I & II, any deviance from the amounts given in the book are immediately applied to regular quality limits.

With Surge III, so long as the BP from the negative metagentic qualities subtracted from the BP from the positive metagenetic qualities is equal to 15 positive points total, then the character can go nuts (within GM's approval that is). If the total is different, then the points are counted towards regular limits.

EX: (P = Bp from positive meta qualities, N = Bp from negative meta qualities)
Surge III: P(30) - N(15) = +15 no change
Surge III: P(50) - N(35) = +15 no change
Surge III: P(25) - N(10) = +15 NOT ALLOWED. Surge III has MINIMUMS for P & N values
Surge III: P(35) - N(15) = +20 character must pay 5 points out of positive quality limit
Surge III: P(30) - N(20) = +10 character must pay 5 points out of negative quality limit
Surge I: P(15) - N(10) = +5 character must pay 5 points out of positive quality limit AND 5 out of negative quality limit

This is how I see it at least.

[Karoline]

The biggest problem is that the book never defines what kind of numbers/ratio you're supposed to use. It seems like a rather major oversight not providing any kind of ratio if you are really supposed to be able to take over the 30/15 limit without affecting you're 35 point quality limit.