Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, RC - Good, bad, ugly?, Is there anything in here that I should be wary of? Options

[Sengir]

I generally recommend the Matrix Overview and Idiot's Guide chapters from Unwired to everyone, the info really adds a lot to the game world and gives a good idea of what everybody does with the Matrix.

The most important part for tech-savy PCs in my option is the chapter on net topology, because it explains the whole technical side of it...although I'm sure people with a more handwavium approach to the Matrix would disagree there.

[Omenowl]

My general overview

SR 4.0 is the same as the anniversary edition if you get the most recent errata. No need to buy a new book.

Augmentation is nice. I like the book, but it is for the characters it only applies to those who are looking for augmentations outside of the norm.

Arsenal. I honestly don't feel it adds much to the game. More items are cool, but I would stick to the core book allowing the options in arsenal to be after character creation. I still believe there needs to be a better option/system for vehicle modifications.

Runners companion I do like a lot. Karma generation does present more powerful characters especially non humans so beware of that aspect. There are some major point balance issues with metavariants for point cost (Trolls vs. fomori for example). As for the other races/sapients I would leave those as an optional rule. Overall I would view that as a reference book to create opponents while allowing the qualities and contacts for the characters. The runners companion is in need of editing for point costs on qualities so keep this in mind as the text will show 15BP and the quality header shows 20BP for example.

Unwired I have mixed feelings. I would just skip over unwired unless you get a technomancer and a heavily focused matrix group.

So use the corebook for character creation with maybe allowing augmentation for your cybered characters. As always it is the equipment buying that takes the longest for character creation.

[Tyro]

I think karmagen should be the default standard. RC is worth it for karmagen alone, even though most of the rest is of doubtful utility.

[Karoline]

I think karmagen should be the default standard. RC is worth it for karmagen alone, even though most of the rest is of doubtful utility.

I agree. I think it might need some tweaks, but for the most part I like it soo much better than the BP system because you don't have to worry about the old "Hey, specilizations cost 2 BP or 2 Karma, but BP is supposed to be worth more than karma." and "Hey, it costs me 4 BP or 4 Karma to get a skill at 1, but it costs me 24BP or 44 karma to get a skill to 6, so getting skills as high as possible is to my advantage in the long run and low grade skills are a waste of BP" and so on.

Personally I hate having to decide between taking specs or not at chargen because it costs alot of relative BP, but (the actual bonus aside) it totally makes sense that my character would have. Same goes for rating 1 skills. If using karmagen, my characters tend to have alot more 1 and 2 point skills to help round them out, because in BP, 1 and 2 point skills are very expensive when looking at a karma:BP ratio.

Okay... [/rant]

[hobgoblin]

i would say that the basic problem of the emotitoy is that it allows the full range of ratings, rather then being limited to say 1-2 (reflecting that its a toy aimed at kids, not a adult tool).

also, while it may come back and say the target looks worried, scared, angry or whatever, it cant really tell you the reason why. Hell, the person may just not be used to dealing with runners, and is worried about what they may decide to do with him if his offer is unacceptable.

[Mäx]

i would say that the basic problem of the emotitoy is that it allows the full range of ratings, rather then being limited to say 1-2 (reflecting that its a toy aimed at kids, not a adult tool).

I have never understood the problem people have with emotitoys, mostly becouse i have never understood the reasoning behind the assumption that becouse your carrying with you a toy thatis runnning empathy-software, you get the full benefits to social rolls as if you had an empathy software running your self.

[Tyro]

I have never understood the problem people have with emotitoys, mostly becouse i have never understood the reasoning behind the assumption that becouse your carrying with you a toy thatis runnning empathy-software, you get the full benefits to social rolls as if you had an empathy software running your self.

QFT. Don't remove them, just make them useless for social situations (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[hobgoblin]

I have never understood the problem people have with emotitoys, mostly becouse i have never understood the reasoning behind the assumption that becouse your carrying with you a toy thatis runnning empathy-software, you get the full benefits to social rolls as if you had an empathy software running your self.

i guess its the assumption that they are basically nodes running software, and as such one can connect to it using ones comlink, and make use of said software directly.

its kinda like how in earlier editions, one had a survival knife that contained a trauma patch that cost more then the whole knife package.

[Karoline]

I have never understood the problem people have with emotitoys, mostly becouse i have never understood the reasoning behind the assumption that becouse your carrying with you a toy thatis runnning empathy-software, you get the full benefits to social rolls as if you had an empathy software running your self.

Isn't that kinda like saying you don't know why people think they get a +2 to their attacks with a smartgun system because it is their gun and contact lenses that are running the software, and not running yourself? I don't see how getting the info from the emoti-toy is any different than getting the info from your commlink.

[Malachi]

I just don't like the idea of any kind of software that gives you that much of an advantage in social situations. I prefer the house rule (that has been stated by several different people) that Empathy Software and Emo-toys only give you a bonus to a Judge Intentions test, not to all Social skill rolls. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that Kinesics is now capped at Rating 3, but Empathy Software goes up to Rating 6. Mystical otherwordly talents that only %1 of the world has are only half as effective as computer software that anyone can get...

[Muspellsheimr]

Except that if you've paid for the vision-enhancing device with essence (Cybereyes for example) then you can target spells with it. Like I said though, I'm perfectly okay with the ruling that a mage can't use it. They already have enough advantages over the poor non-awakened.

Radar is not a vision enhancement. It is a visual overlay.

Mages also do not have significant advantages over mundanes - they are appropriately balanced (except for the "unlimited advancement" aspect, which almost never comes up, but can easily cause significant problems; suggestion - Initiate Grade cannot exceed 5, natural Magic cannot exceed 7. You would be amazed at how well it works).



As to the original question.

Emototoys: Remove them - they are significantly cheaper than the software they get for free, and are fucking retarded.
Empathy Software: Remove the last line.

Runners Companion: Great book, many good concepts, but horribly balanced. Particularly in the advanced races section, there are few options that are "correctly priced". Most are either hideously underpowered, or blatantly overpowering. Several options simply do not mesh well with the system. I would advise disallowing Sentient Critters, Synthetic Intelligences, & Free Spirits. The other racial options are fine from the conceptual point, but can cause balance issues - I suggest reviewing my personal House Errata & making any adjustments you deem appropriate. Please note that the errata is not actually fully completed.

and I'm going to allow the qualities (subject to GM fiat, of course),

One of the worst things any GM can do in my experience. Either allow it, or not. If with certain combination's it becomes overpowered, that is a problem with the balance of the game, not the quality itself, and cannot be fixed by arbitrarily deciding who has access to something & who doesn't.

[Karoline]

Radar is not a vision enhancement. It is a visual overlay.

Same could be said for LL vision or thermographic vision or ultrasound (Especially with ultrasound). All of them are technically just overlays, but as long as they are paid for with essence you can target a spell with them. Like I said though, not a big disappointment to me because it is sevearly unbalancing to let mages use it to target people.

Mages also do not have significant advantages over mundanes - they are appropriately balanced (except for the "unlimited advancement" aspect, which almost never comes up, but can easily cause significant problems; suggestion - Initiate Grade cannot exceed 5, natural Magic cannot exceed 7. You would be amazed at how well it works).

If you'd like to believe that, that is your opinion. I'll not get into it in this thread, as it is entirely unrelated.

[Muspellsheimr]

Same could be said for LL vision or thermographic vision or ultrasound (Especially with ultrasound). All of them are technically just overlays, but as long as they are paid for with essence you can target a spell with them. Like I said though, not a big disappointment to me because it is sevearly unbalancing to let mages use it to target people.

That is because, with Ultrasound, that is correct. Mages cannot use Ultrasound (implanted or otherwise) to target spells, because it takes its readings & places a visual display over your vision.

With Thermographic & Low Light, that is not the case. Low Light amplifies the light your eyes receive & register, enhancing your vision, not replacing or overlaying it. Thermographic expands the light frequencies that your eyes can pick up, enhancing your vision, not replacing or overlaying it.

[Muspellsheimr]

Same could be said for LL vision or thermographic vision or ultrasound (Especially with ultrasound). All of them are technically just overlays, but as long as they are paid for with essence you can target a spell with them. Like I said though, not a big disappointment to me because it is sevearly unbalancing to let mages use it to target people.

That is because, with Ultrasound, that is correct. Mages cannot use Ultrasound (implanted or otherwise) to target spells, because it takes its readings & places a visual display over your vision.

With Thermographic & Low Light, that is not the case. Low Light amplifies the light your eyes receive & register, enhancing your vision, not replacing or overlaying it. Thermographic expands the light frequencies that your eyes can pick up, enhancing your vision, not replacing or overlaying it.

[Ascalaphus]

That is because, with Ultrasound, that is correct. Mages cannot use Ultrasound (implanted or otherwise) to target spells, because it takes its readings & places a visual display over your vision.

In the case of cybereyes, your whole vision is artificial; optical as well as ultrasound is sent to the visual section of the brain.

With Thermographic & Low Light, that is not the case. Low Light amplifies the light your eyes receive & register, enhancing your vision, not replacing or overlaying it. Thermographic expands the light frequencies that your eyes can pick up, enhancing your vision, not replacing or overlaying it.

In the case of cybereyes, your vision is replaced, by an artificial sensor that sends information to your brain. This isn't a problem, as long as the artificial sensor is incorporated in your "form" by paying Essence for it. So far clear.

So does it matter what kind of artificial sensor? You can't create LOS by hearing, but is that because only light can transfer LOS, or because hearing isn't precise enough to target something uniquely to a single spot, or because it needs to go through the brain's visual centers?

In the descriptions of astral perception, it's made clear that astral "sight" has nothing to do with the eyes; it's more a matter of seeing with your mind/spirit. Blind mages can astrally perceive and target spells.

Since we've eliminated dependency on light and on the visual parts of the brain (since even blind mages can use astral perception to target LOS spells physically), it must be a matter of being able to sense a spot to target and the path to it. I do think that ultrasound, radar etc, if Essence-bought, should be able to do that, since they can also preisely perceive area.

[Draco18s]

Since we've eliminated dependency on light and on the visual parts of the brain (since even blind mages can use astral perception to target LOS spells physically), it must be a matter of being able to sense a spot to target and the path to it. I do think that ultrasound, radar etc, if Essence-bought, should be able to do that, since they can also preisely perceive area.

So you'll let a mage with an implanted radar cast spells through walls even though a blind, astrally perceiving mage can not?

[Ascalaphus]

So you'll let a mage with an implanted radar cast spells through walls even though a blind, astrally perceiving mage can not?

IIRC, walls are still opaque astrally, so yeah.

I didn't say it was balanced; but it makes sense. I prefer to achieve both balance and sense; rules to gain balance that hinder sense are naughty.

[Draco18s]

IIRC, walls are still opaque astrally, so yeah.

Correct.

I didn't say it was balanced; but it makes sense. I prefer to achieve both balance and sense; rules to gain balance that hinder sense are naughty.

In which case, that's fine for your games, but its not RAW.

[Karoline]

In which case, that's fine for your games, but its not RAW.

Well, normal radar can't see through walls, only ultrawideband radar can (There is a difference, so make sure you're using the right term).

And no, what he said is exactly RAW. It may not be balanced, but it is RAW. Ultrasound, Low Light, and Thermographic can all be used to target people as long as the mage is paying essence to see with it. By extension of that, ultrawideband radar should also be able to be used to target spells because it is functionally equivalent to ultrasound.

So yes, RAW says you can target with Ultrawideband radar, but a developer says that you can't due to balance issues.

Oh, and as an aside, a blind mage can't target anything on the physical (Except with touch spells) because you must be able to perceive your target on the plane you wish to cast on.

Edit: Oh, and if people are going to argue either of these points (I know both are fairly controversial) please just make a new thread.

[Omenowl]

One of the worst things any GM can do in my experience. Either allow it, or not. If with certain combination's it becomes overpowered, that is a problem with the balance of the game, not the quality itself, and cannot be fixed by arbitrarily deciding who has access to something & who doesn't.

This is easily solved by requiring a well rounded character description. I gives players extra BPs depeding on how well they write up their character description. The more work they put into a character's background story the more points they get.

As for emototoys I only allow them to determine state of mind. Not motivations. I leave that for the players skills. The real trick is to learn the motivation, type of personality and how to deal with people like that. You can even be told all those things, but putting them into practice doesn't always work that is why player's need the skills.

[Muspellsheimr]

A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bio-
enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any
technological visual aids that substitude themselves for the charac-
ter's own visual senses - cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds,
etc. - cannot be used.

As noted above, sighting through an electronic vision-en-
hancing device or other technological rendering of the target does not
establish the necessary link.

The utrasound accessory consists of an emitter that
sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses and a receiver that picks up the
echoes of these pulses to create a topographic ultrasound "map" that
is laid over (or replaces) the user's normal visual sensory input.

THis device emits ultrawideband and tera-
hertz radar in short stepped-frequency pulses. An expert system
analyzes the Doppler shift in the bounced signals and converts
the information into a three-dimensional "map" that overlays
(or replaces) the user's visual senses, similar in some ways to ul-
trasound.

Oddly enough, I cannot seem to find the rules for spell targeting with Astral Perception. Going from memory, you can use Astral Perception to target spells in place of Line of Sight, but must be active on the plane you are targeting (meaning Perceiving for Physical targets, Perceiving or Projecting for Astral targets). Going from what I can find, you cannot use Astral Perception to target spells, and thus can only use Touch-range spells while astrally Perceiving or Projecting, period.

[Karoline]

So, all that quoting proves that the correct interpretation is that Ultrawideband Radar should work for targeting spells. Thanks.

[hahnsoo]

So, all that quoting proves that the correct interpretation is that Ultrawideband Radar should work for targeting spells. Thanks.

Actually, it seems exactly the opposite, from my reading. An overlay or map is definitely technological and is not "normal" vision, even if paid for by Essence. There is no natural way to produce said overlay on natural eyes, unlike thermographic or low light vision. You might as well say that spells can be targeted using Enhanced Hearing or Enhanced Smell, too, if you are allowing this, since you can put an Enhanced Hearing or Smell overlay on your Image Link, quite easily.

You're seeing what you're looking for, rather than reading the actual words (conveniently underlined in the post). Not that it matters much, due to the sloppy writing from the book, thus leading to two opposite and loose interpretation of the rules being treated as RAW. Everyone has a right to be stubborn about their own opinions, though. What they SHOULD do is list explicit cases of what can and cannot be used for spell targeting.

[Karoline]

Actually I'm seeing the actual words (Conveniently left out of the underlined sections in the post).

A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything
she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bio-
enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any
technological visual aids that substitude themselves for the charac-
ter's own visual senses - cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds,
etc. - cannot be used.

There, now the correct part of the quote is underlined. It says enhancements paid for with essence can be used to spot targets. It doesn't say that Low Light vision and Thermographic vision can be used to spot targets if you pay essence for it, it says enhancement. Ultrasound is a vision enhancement. Ultrawideband Radar is a vision enhancement. Low light vision is a vision enhancement.

The utrasound accessory consists of an emitter that
sends out continuous ultrasonic pulses and a receiver that picks up the
echoes of these pulses to create a topographic ultrasound "map" that
is laid over (or replaces) the user's normal visual sensory input.

THis device emits ultrawideband and tera-
hertz radar in short stepped-frequency pulses. An expert system
analyzes the Doppler shift in the bounced signals and converts
the information into a three-dimensional "map" that overlays
(or replaces) the user's visual senses, similar in some ways to ul-
trasound.

This is exactly no different than a cybereye replacing the vision that was lost due to a mage gouging out their eyes. It replaces the user's visual senses.

[etherial]

There, now the correct part of the quote is underlined. It says enhancements paid for with essence can be used to spot targets. It doesn't say that Low Light vision and Thermographic vision can be used to spot targets if you pay essence for it, it says enhancement. Ultrasound is a vision enhancement. Ultrawideband Radar is a vision enhancement. Low light vision is a vision enhancement.

That's the thing, Ultrasound isn't a vision enhancement any more than GridGuide or a TacNet is. They take extrasensory data (audio, even, for Ultrasound) and overlay that information on top of your field of view.