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[map]

When programing your own software what is the highest rating you can create? For the life of me I can not find this. I would guess 6, but I do not see this in print anywhere. I did see the side blurb in Unwired telling that anything above 6 is military and rare. So is 6 the max, unless introduced in game?

I do recall a person at a Shadowrun Missions game with rating 8 stating he programed them himself.

-map

[Eugene]

I don't think there IS a limit, other than that the Thresholds and Intervals are crazy high. It's not something you're going to be whipping up for the next run, anyway.

[map]

Wow, fast reply.

Well programs are limited by the System rating. Is there a limit to the system rating?

No limit seems like it could be abused. Even given the TN/time (IIRC software - TM = rating x2 / 3 month base time). I think you could get some wicked high software with this. What ratings do other people run? If this is the rule.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No Limits... but as previously indicated, there are practical limits based upon time and availability of resources (and never forget the vagaries of a decreasing dice pool for the extended test)

Keep the Faith

[hahnsoo]

The trick is that your self-programmed programs are all subject to Degradation. You'd have to find some time to both upgrade them (1 month is the base interval. Remember that Hacking programs degrade every month) and patch them continuously. This makes it very inefficient in terms of downtime cost to make and maintain a program at a high rating. It's possible to do, of course, and hackers who spend all of their downtime programming are pretty much true to their concept.

Unless you use the Optimization program option, your program is limited to the System rating anyway. And god help those who make their own custom System (1 point of degradation every other month)...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The trick is that your self-programmed programs are all subject to Degradation. You'd have to find some time to both upgrade them (1 month is the base interval. Remember that Hacking programs degrade every month) and patch them continuously. This makes it very inefficient in terms of downtime cost to make and maintain a program at a high rating. It's possible to do, of course, and hackers who spend all of their downtime programming are pretty much true to their concept.

Unless you use the Optimization program option, your program is limited to the System rating anyway.

Though I know that you do not agree with the following, you are incorrect according to the Unwired Erratta... Self-Made Programs Do NOT degrade... ever...
Just want to point that out so he has all the information... the reason standard programs degrade (in the game world) is because of planned obsolescence... nuff said...

Keep the Faith

[hahnsoo]

Though I know that you do not agree with the following, you are incorrect according to the Unwired Erratta... Self-Made Programs Do NOT degrade... ever...
Just want to point that out so he has all the information...

Keep the Faith

Wait, what? How do you know I don't agree with that? Isn't that being a bit presumptuous?

I was simply unaware of Unwired Errata at the time of my posting. Besides, that's NOT what the errata says:
"Software programmed by the hacker and Open Source programs never degrade in this fashion, but may require patching to remain current at the gamemaster’s discretion."

It's not "Do NOT degrade... ever...", it's "may require patching to remain current at the gamemaster's discretion". I know that's Catalyst Game Labs saying "We don't care, don't bother us", but still...

As to my actual thoughts on the subject, I think this is a better ruling than the one in Unwired. I have always thought that degradation initiated a whole shitstorm of unnecessary bookkeeping (hey, look at all of those double consonants). We still don't use either in our game, however, since we switched to a set of house rules about a year ago.

[map]

In the erratta, degradation for self written software is less of a problem...the GM applies as needed.

I see a problem with no caps. My hacker has a programming DP of 22. Using the 1 success for 4 dice, and the -1 die per roll, that means in 18 months he could make a rating 27 program. OK, so It could not run on anything. Is there a system cap?

What would prevent a corp from easily making rating 27 programs?

[Draco18s]

What would prevent a corp from easily making rating 27 programs? I could make it in one month....without a nexus!

You have over 162 dice? (Average needed to get 54 hits in one roll--which takes 3 months).

[map]

I could be wrong on this, let me know...162 dice would be to write the program in one attempt. As per extended test rules, I am doing it in 18 attempts, not one. This is how I figure it.

My character has a Programing DP of 22. I am using the following rules for the extended test. For every 4 dice in the pool, you get one success. Each time you roll, subtract one die from the pool. To make a rating 54 hacking program the exdended test is: TN 54: 1 Month. With a DP of 22, that works out to 18 attempts or 18 months to reach 54 successes.

18 motnhs IS a long time for one program, and a rating 54 program is crazy...but my point is a corp could pull this off, easily, with all it's resources...

I was wondering if there are program or system rating limits in the rules. From what I gather the answer is no.

If there are no limits, I am wonderign what ratings people typically use, and ask why don't you go higher (Beyond GM common sense LOL) ?

[Draco18s]

I could be wrong on this, let me know...162 dice would be to write the program in one attempt. As per extended test rules, I am doing it in 18 attempts, not one.

Then its not coded in one month, unless you have access to some time travel/distortion effect whereby you are allowed to make extended tests at a shorter interval.

I could make it in one month....without a nexus!

[map]

OOps. Sorry, typo in my own post that I missed. I will edit =)

[Draco18s]

Alright then.

OK, so It could not run on anything. Is there a system cap?

What would prevent a corp from easily making rating 27 programs?

You'd need a System 27 OS to run it.

[Godwyn]

Also there is the simple feel/flavor/general setup of the game. Most things cap out for standard at 6. In the core book program examples are 6 is top of the line, while 7 is cutting edge, absolute newest possible. While nothing in Unwired specifically limits program rating, thats more of a general oversight/lapse in Unwired, of which there are sooo many.

Personally, I am a fan of limiting a program's rating to the programmer's skill. So if you have taken the investment to have aptitude for the skill, I would be more than willing to let a "legendary," by the terms of SR, progammer have rating 7 programs.

[Freejack]

The System program is limited by the base Response rating of the device it is on: if the base Response rating of the device is lower than the System rating, then the System rating is set to equal the Response rating.

A device’s ratings may only be upgraded by +2 with regards to their original ratings

The maximum commlink hardware is the Fairlight Caliban at 4/5 which means you can upgrade it to a 6/7. OS is the Novatech Navi giving you a 3/4 however it can upgraded as high as you want within limits of money and time (die rolls). It looks like the System max would be either 4 or 6 depending on how you read "limited by the base Response" part of the quote. To me, "base" is the unmodified Response.

Military can have higher, military grade commlinks created especially for them. They'd have to have the Cray Commlink created (lots of processing power) then they could upgrade the System (OS) as much possible (within the limits of the hardware).

Carl

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Alright then.



You'd need a System 27 OS to run it.

Which is indeed the true limiting factor of any program...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Also there is the simple feel/flavor/general setup of the game. Most things cap out for standard at 6. In the core book program examples are 6 is top of the line, while 7 is cutting edge, absolute newest possible. While nothing in Unwired specifically limits program rating, thats more of a general oversight/lapse in Unwired, of which there are sooo many.

Personally, I am a fan of limiting a program's rating to the programmer's skill. So if you have taken the investment to have aptitude for the skill, I would be more than willing to let a "legendary," by the terms of SR, progammer have rating 7 programs.

The fact that they say that a System and Firewall can climb to at least 10 is a pretty good indicator, and yes, it is in Unwired...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The maximum commlink hardware is the Fairlight Caliban at 4/5 which means you can upgrade it to a 6/7. OS is the Novatech Navi giving you a 3/4 however it can upgraded as high as you want within limits of money and time (die rolls). It looks like the System max would be either 4 or 6 depending on how you read "limited by the base Response" part of the quote. To me, "base" is the unmodified Response.

Military can have higher, military grade commlinks created especially for them. They'd have to have the Cray Commlink created (lots of processing power) then they could upgrade the System (OS) as much possible (within the limits of the hardware).

Carl

And in the end, anyone with a top of the line Hardware skill and access to a fairly well stocked shop or facility can create base stats above 6... the only true limit is what your GM sets... but hardware is listed at least as high as 10+ for comlink/nexus environments, as that is what is needed for an Untraviolet system.....

So, if it is capable of being created, then there you go... the drawbaCK IS THAT ONCE PEOPLE KNOW THAT YOU CAN CREATE SUCH HARDWARE/SOFTWARE, YOU MAY BE ON SOMEONE'S EXTRACTION LIST...


Ooops, Caps, damned caps lock key... Not screaming, just too lazy to correct...

Keep the Faith

[Godwyn]

Or the poor man's/slightly mentally unstable option, have an AI reside in the implanted commlink in your head for the sexy bonuses to it. Works for one of my characters.

Then again, the AI does really enjoy screwing around with all his cyberware that is linked to the commlink. . .

And the GM only allows it because the AI is another player.

[DWC]

Don't forget that the System of a Nexus is not capped by its' Response rating. Couple that with Optimization allowing you to effectively double the System rating for running a program and you can run a R12 program on an off-the-rack Response 3 nexus.

[Godwyn]

Don't forget that the System of a Nexus is not capped by its' Response rating. Couple that with Optimization allowing you to effectively double the System rating for running a program and you can run a R12 program on an off-the-rack Response 3 nexus.

Which brings in more of my problems with Unwired. Massive powerscaling.

Nexi are also cheap enough that, just as corporations don't run server rooms full of cell phones, they have massive processing power at their disposal, every corp, even an A sized one, would use Nexi for most things, especially central data management and any research.

Which would allow them to constantly run really high rating programs, which forces the player to then do the same. Although the van full of the necessary components for a Nexus parked near the site of the job with the rigger inside doing his thing is cool imagery, it is unnecessary.

And, in the end, though many (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) more for the character . . . nothing changes. Except the character had to spend more to do the same thing.

Really, I dislike Unwired on many levels, and one phrase sums it up. . .

5 IP? WTF?

[Draco18s]

Nexi are also cheap enough that....

....my 400 BP character who's not even a hacker bought one at chargen. I spent 4 whole BP for backstory epicness.

[Karoline]

5 IP? WTF?

That's actually one of the few things I really liked about Unwired. It introduced the concept that you can think faster than you can move. One that I personally like. It is after all silly that someone with a high rating MbW or WR can type in commands faster than they can think them (Because they get 4 IPs typing and only 2 IPs by using a datajack, thus they type their commands twice as fast as they can think them.)

[pbangarth]

(Because they get 4 IPs typing and only 2 IPs by using a datajack, thus they type their commands twice as fast as they can think them.)

This assumes that an IP typing gets as much info through as an IP thinking. That's a big assumption.

[Draco18s]

This assumes that an IP typing gets as much info through as an IP thinking. That's a big assumption.

> Run Exploit.exe

Huh. That takes 1 IP in the meat, typing, or 1 IP via datajack. Same results.