Firearms group, ranged weapon skills seem to be off. Options

[Omenowl]

I have a strong dislike for the current breakup of skills for firearms and a couple of other skills. The idea is to group similar types of skills with those weapons that require different thought processes, and body movements. My goal is to make sure skills require distinct training, but are broad enough to make the skill worthwhile. Longarms vs. automatics seems like a poor distinction as an assault rifle and a semiautomatic rifle can be almost identical except for rate of fire. It is also assumed that players are able to repair, modify (anything requiring a workshop or toolkit) and use said weapons. If they wish to change the weapons characteristics (such as integral components that exceed space, larger internal ammunition capacity, greater damage, etc) or requires a facility then this would fall under engineering.

I am deciding to modify the various skills

Firearms are about direct fire weapons that rely on the weapons energy rather than the characters. It has several subskills.
Pistols (weapons that have 1 grip) including gyrojet pistols
Rifles (weapons that can be carried and have 2 grips). This includes medium and light machine guns
Crossbows
Lasers
Muskets
Flamethrowers
Net Guns.


Gunnery: These include directly controlled indirect fire and manually operated turret mounted weapons. Grenade launchers, artillery, pedal/wheel operated weapons (such as antiaircraft guns) and mortars. Heavy machine guns on tripods fall into this category
Heavy Weapons: These are weapons that require remote operation or electronic guidance. They include missiles, rockets, programmed artillery, remote controlled turrets, bombs.

[Falar]

Juuuuust because something "makes more sense" one way, does not mean that it will not be TERRIFICALLY UNBALANCED that way. What you have given is a Firearms group that applies to just about every ranged weapon almost anybody would care to have ... which I can buy as a group for a pretty low price as compared to the core rules. If you combine all these weapons into one skill group, you need to seriously up the price for the skill group as a whole. And a few of the skills should probably cost more as they now cost more.

Game designers have to do things for more than just sense. They also have to balance costs relative to each other. While the system is flawed in some ways as to this ... it's not as flawed as that change would make it.

Also, what if I'm a troll and carry the Heavy Machine Gun in my hands? Is it now a rifle?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want realism or better yet "simulationism", go play GURPS, I'm quite sure that with few modifications you can have the Sixth World ready for GURPS.

[Omenowl]

There is a reason firearms gained preeminence over bows and it was for their ease of use.

First off how is it overpowered? Rifles rolled up automatics and longarms into one skill. Pistols got a couple of exotics. The other exotic skills if anything are rarely used and only then for special missions or desperation. Players with firearms are probably going to use the same weapons they were before. If anything they may ignore the firearm group and focus on pistols and rifles. And if a troll can carry and fire a 40-50+kg weapon with 20-30g of bullets, armor, etc more power to them.

Gunnery is not under firearms nor are heavy weapons. That may not have been clear.

[Falar]

Pistols - added all Exotic Weapon Skills
Rifles - added all Automatics, added Light and Medium machine guns and apparently Heavy machine guns if you've got the STR/BOD, so rolling up most of Heavy Weapons and some Exotic Weapons
Crossbows - Taken away from Ranged Weaponry
Lasers - Taken from Exotic Weapon Skills, IIRC. Shadowrun is not my "home" system, so I'm not totally sure.
Muskets - ... I'm not sure why this got split out into a separate skill as it would have been under either Pistols or Rifles before.
Flamethrowers - Either Heavy Weapons or Exotic Weapons
Net Guns - I'm pretty sure this is Exotic Weapons

So, with that, you've got a list of six skills in one skill group, so you'd save ... ah ... instead of 2-6 BP as with most skill groups (3-4 skills), you'd save ... a whopping 14BP per point. And let's not forget that you rolled a darn good portion of Armorer into it as well. If we break down how much got rolled into certain skills, what would cost you 8 now might only cost you 4. For example, with the description of Pistols given, you could fire ... the MGL-6 with it. Which cuts out Heavy Weapons. Oh, and the gyrojet pistols, which I believe was an Exotic Weapon ... so that's 12BP rolled down to 4.

Basically, it makes Firearms the best skill group for your money. As it is right now, it's one of the less money back skill groups incorporating 3 skills to some group's 4. Basically, with this change, it's far and away the most bang-for-your-buck skill group, to the point of making other skill groups kind'f a ripoff.

If you do both BP and ka

[Synner667]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want realism or better yet "simulationism", go play GURPS, I'm quite sure that with few modifications you can have the Sixth World ready for GURPS.

Or HERO or RoleMaster (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

I agree that the grouping doesn't make much sense. Automatics and longarms aren't really all that different in the real world (and heck, lets be honest, once you know how to fire a pistol/rifle, learning to use the other isn't really all that difficult), but you've greatly reduced the number of skills that a runner really needs to bother taking. I mean I'd be plenty happy with just the pistol and rifle skill, or just one of them, on 99% of my character concepts.

So that rolling of two skills into one really disrupts the balance (The idea is that everything has 3 skills. Melee has 3 skills, magic has 3 skills, technomancing has 3 skills, and guns has 3 skills), and so isn't a particularly good idea, even if it does kinda make sense from a reality standpoint. Then you make all these other weird skills and I have no idea what that is all about. Why the sudden laser skill? And why the heck are net guns rolled into this grouping? And flamethrowers? Really? That seems like a fairly big stretch for being in the same skill group (Never mind that you've broken the 4 skill max that all other groups adhere to)

If you were just talking about rolling automatics and longarms into one group, I might be a little behind you (perhaps suggesting that there should be an SA/SS Rifle skill and a BF/FA Rifle skill based on how you fire the weapon to get back up to 3 skills), but all this other stuff seems like way too much. Also, just because you know how to fire a weapon doesn't mean you know the first thing about cleaning it or even anything about its workings beyond the safety and trigger.

[Omenowl]

Actually atheltics has 5 skills. See runner's companion.

I have a strong dislike for the exotic skills that seem to just be thrown in especially when the grip, etc are identical (gyrojet pistols). The question that should be asked is does it fire like a pistol or a rifle. It is part of the reason many items such as tasers have a pistol grip to reduce training time. I would tend to agree if it gave such a wide diversity of weapons that nothing else could compare, but they don't. An example is athletics has 5 skills with flight being the 5th. Pilot groundcraft covers a huge number of different vehicles from motorcycles, to cars, to hovercraft. to tracked vehicles.

Archery is a whole other issue where completely dissimilar items are put together. Crossbows are more similar to rifles or pistols than being in common with bows for firing and if anything I would put slings into the thrown category.

And you are right I would put the toolkit as being with the weapon skills for modifications. The workshop and facility under the armorer skill.

[Ascalaphus]

Being able to clean a gun without the Armorer skills is sensible; but actually making real changes to a gun is precisely what the Armorer skill is about, so no need to change that.


Even though different weapons have similar handgrips, that doesn't mean they work the same; they have different rates of fire, speed of bullets, recoil etcetera, - all manner of things that make them different.

Crossbows may have a trigger, but they feature (relatively) slow-moving arrows like a bow, making one Archery skill for both sensible.

Net guns have a very exotic ammo type that moves through the air differently from anything else, and deserves to be set apart.

Lasers are different in their speed; they're actually faster than any other weapon, which means aiming them works quite differently. They also likely don't have recoil.

Flamethrowers are a crossing of melee and ranged weapon, and feature fairly slow-moving flames (compared to bullets), making them very different from other weapons.



As for the firearms division:

Pistols covers small, close range weaponry. Tasers and Holdouts included. They generally have little recoil, but don't do as much damage and are limited in range.

Automatics focus on quantity of bullets, rather than range or damage.

Longarms focus on high quality per bullet, including high damage and long range.

[Snow_Fox]

There is a reason firearms gained preeminence over bows and it was for their ease of use.

This is not entirely correct. Guns are more expensive and until the invention of repeating firearms circa 1860 bows had a much greater rate of fire.

Fire arms gained preeminance because the learning curve to train men was much much lower. It could take years to train an archer and the loss of them in battle could not be easily made up. By comparrison musketeers could be trained much faster and replaced much faster.

Until the repeating rifle appeared though, a trained archer could outshoot a trained musketeer. But generals like BIG armies.

I know, it's a fine point but as long as we are kicking around 'realistic' elements...

[Generico]

Crossbows gained preeminance because the learning curve to train men was much much lower. It could take years to train an archer and the loss of them in battle could not be easily made up. By comparrison crossbowmen could be trained much faster and replaced much faster.

Fixed!

Anyways, the biggest gripe people have with the firearm spilt-up is that a burst/full-auto light pistol is fired with pistols but a burst/full-auto machine pistol is fired with automatics. This makes no sense!

Additionally 99% percent of smart characters (even gunbunnys) either take autos or heavies.
There is basicly no situation with the current rules where 2 skills is worth the points.

The end result is that people start trying to reorganize the weapon groups logically.

I personally am using the Eclipse Phase breakdown (ie. energy, launcher, kinetic, sprayer)
Makes sense, less hassle.

[tete]

I miss the days of 2e when the skill was just Firearms.

[Generico]

I miss the days of 2e when the skill was just Firearms.

Wasn't it Firearms and Launch Weapons?

and lasers/weird shit didn't exist yet?

[Thanee]

Actually atheltics has 5 skills. See runner's companion.

What 5th skill do you mean here?

Bye
Thanee

[Karoline]

What 5th skill do you mean here?

Bye
Thanee

Flight is apparently in the skill grouping (You know, for all those runners that can fly) but I thought it replaced the running skill, not added a 5th skill.

And I have to agree that while an xbow follows the same 'pull the trigger' principle as a rifle, the way you need to adjust your shot is way different because you're ammo is going to drop alot more and you're going to have to lead the target by a much larger distance. This does make it much more similar to a bow in where you are aiming for, even though the exact firing methods are rather different. Same is even more true of a net gun.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I miss the days of 2e when the skill was just Firearms.

I liked 2es skills as well. 3e kind of was weird to me, it was a lot like 2e but for some reason combat skills were broken up. Stealth still covered a huge range of things as did most skills, but pistols and rifles etc. were broken out of firearms. 4e I'm okay with though I'd make groups and skills in general cheaper, also I'd move most if not all "special skills" into a similar skill. I can rationalize how the squirt is different from a pistol but I'm mostly full of crap when i do.

[Draco18s]

Flight is apparently in the skill grouping (You know, for all those runners that can fly) but I thought it replaced the running skill, not added a 5th skill.

To which I'd like to point out that drakes can both run and fly most of the time, whereas a pixie has almost no use for their legs what so ever because of their slow land movement rate.


As for the OP I think I would suggest the following:

Revolvers - All one handed single-shot weapons
SemiAutos - All burst fire weapons
Rifles - All two handed semi- and full auto weapons
Exotics - All "odd amunition" weapons from lasers to flame throwers to netguns to crossbows.

The general principle between these types and normal ammo guns is similar enough that its easy to learn, but have their own quirks (flame throwers having low range and ballistic trajectories different from standard ammo, lasers having effectively infinite range and no ballistic arc). Likewise single shot/BA/full auto weapons are different in how you hold them (pistols at arm's reach, uzi types are two handed out in front, rifles are more shoulder braced). I'm sure I haven't unambiguously described each group (a full auto-pistol is...?) but have at least broken it down into managable groupings.

The only complaint being that shotguns and sniper rifles both fall under "rifle" (still), despite being single shot (usually) and even having vastly different skills needed to be used effectively.

Heavy weapons I'd shove under gunnery, even when its a troll using an LMG. You're just firing that much lead that the principle is pretty much the same: spray and pray.

[Karoline]

I figure it should be 4 skills:
SS/SA pistols
BF/FA pistols
SS/SA rifles
BF/FA rifles
and then go on to all the exotic weapons for xbows and net guns and everything else that usually requires exotic weapons.

The basic principle is that it isn't much different firing any two weapons that you hold in two hands(Rifles), but it is much different if you are firing one shot at a time or unloading a clip (SS/SA vs BF/FA). Aiming with a pistol is done differently enough (especially how you hold the weapon) that it requires a different skill. Some kind of defaulting might be cool, as if you can aim well for burst fire, you can likely at least manage some degree of single shot ability and vice versa.

[Draco18s]

Are we going to throw SMGs in under BF Pistols, or BF Rifles?

[Saint Sithney]

How about:
Sidearms - Anything you can fire with one hand (Redline Laser? sure.)
Longarms - Anything with an effective range over 500m (includes ARs and Carbines as well as MG and Assault Cannon)
Tactical - Anything with an effective range under 500m (shotguns, SMG, your basic sweep an clear gear/PDW)
Launcher - Missiles, rockets, grenades, flamethrowers, all the more esoteric stuff.

Because, really the skill a shooter needs to develop isn't based on caliber or even fire rate, but on how you hold your weapon and at what distance you plan to engage enemies.

[Dumori]

I'd have the "firearms" group
Sidearms - Anything you can fire with one hand bar surport guns (minus one handed GLs and the gyro-jet the "exotic" pistols).
Longarms - Any firearm with an effective range over 500m (includes ARs and Carbines as well as LMGs)
Tactical - Any friearm with an effective range under 500m (shotguns, SMG, your basic sweep an clear gear/PDW)

With these skill out side the group
Support - Basically Heavy weapons minus the LMG plus gyro jet and pistol GL
Lasers- all the laser weaponry with there fast projectile speed and radicaly different means to maintain.
Gunnery- would remain as it is.
as would all the other skills with overlap in throw weapons and hand grenades as support would cover them as well

The firearms group remains per BP relatively the same but the indervisule skills gain a few changes. The more exotic weapons no longer end up skill whores though I am iffy where to put the gyro-jet still. I want to keep the balance close to as it is now. Support might be folded in to firearms as well but that might overpower the group. Of course some testing and or deep insight might be needed but thats my gut feeling.

[tete]

Wasn't it Firearms and Launch Weapons?

and lasers/weird shit didn't exist yet?

I believe your correct and they had Armed Combat, Firearms, Launch Weapons, and Unarmed Combat for combat skills. Dont have my book near me though so I could be wrong.

[Saint Sithney]

I am iffy where to put the gyro-jet still.

Well, it is basically a mini-rocket pistol, so Support isn't a bad spot for it.
My thought for including lasers in with traditional kinetic weapons is that, with a smartgun system, the only real skill is how to hold a thing and what to expect from it. A laser with a blinking "zap goes here" sign should almost bypass rolls it's so easy to use.

[Dumori]

How ever the skills also nessitate the use of weapons unsmartlinked as well and reload drills and mantining the weapon some thing that with lasers would fall out of genral firearms. There is also the posabilty of splitting support in to support and special. Special holding the superheavy and more esoteric guns. Suport would then be part of firearms with your MGs, GLs and such with the LMG removed from long arms. This would not change the blance much and infact could be the better idea. In this case moving sniper platfroms in to support would help round out firearms though could weaken longarms a bit too much. Blanencing this all out becomes the biggest problem not simulating.

[Omenowl]

The only problem with going with range is it is the bullet size, rifling and propellant for its maximum effective range. I know several people who used M-14 with a range of 750 meters despite being fully automatic. The M-14 also can be used as a LMG with a few variants. So this is why I rolled hand carried machine guns into rifles. Weapons such as HK XM30 would also have 1 weapon skill for its variants with the exception for the grenade launcher (because it is an indirect fire weapon).