Astral Combat, Perceivers vs. Projectors in SR3 Options

[Taishan]

Here's the situation that has driven my group up the wall tonight:

We're playing SR3. We have a situation of an astrally projecting mage and an astrally perceiving mage. The projecting mage is floating about the perceiving mage beyond physical reach (say 30 meters).

1) When the projecting mage attacks using astral combat, does this occur at a distance? Does the perceiving mage get to make an opposing combat test (sorc, melee, unarmed) or not because of the distance?

2) Can the perceiving mage initiate astral combat on the ranged projecting mage? In other words, can astral combat affect a target beyond a perceiving/dual natured being's physical reach?

My problem is the apparent rangeless-ness that these situations imply for astral combat. Does the act of initiating astral combat imply that the astrally projecting mage has to move within melee range to attack the perceiving mage? Does the perceiving mage get to initiate astral combat even if the target is beyond physical reach? Does an astrally projecting mage flying about 500 meters above the streets of Seattle at night have to worry about devil rats swarming around outside the sewers whooping his hoop from ground? Is there any advantage of a physical adept using distance strike to hit an astral form using astral combat over not using distance strike?

Please cite specific pages/lines- I have some pretty intractable rules laywers in the group (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Thanks everyone!

[hahnsoo]

SR3 p174:
"Astral combat uses the same rules as Melee Combat (p.120). The nature of astral space precludes ranged weapons, except for spells. An astral character can attack other astral forms with no penalties for astral movement."
There are no astral ranged attacks for astral combat aside from spells or spell-like abilities. You can't even throw a weapon focus at something (since when it leaves the touch of your aura, it ceases to work).

To hit the astral mage beyond reach, the perceiving mage needs to chuck a mana spell at it and vice versa.

[Taishan]

@Hahnsoo, thanks, that answers my 2nd question. Any advice on the first?

[Karoline]

It answers the first question as well, because you're question asks if the projecting mage gets an advantage for using astral combat from a distance. The answer is "No, because the projecting mage can't use astral combat from a distance."

The only real advantages the projecting mage will have is 1) the perceiving mage has a -2 for astrally perceiving and 2) he can book it out of there if things aren't going in his favor (Though I guess the perceiving mage can just stop perceiving and instantly become immune to the projecting mage)

[nezumi]

The projecting mage does also have other benefits. For instance, he can deny the percieving mage the ability to attack directly, only defend. He can also attack from unusual directions. He can punch 'through' walls and the floor (it's a blind attack, but it can be done). The defending mage will be punching plaster. The attacking mage has higher initiative. His astral combat pool is likely higher. He suffers fewer modifiers (for instance, for lighting, etc.)

[Falconer]

No Karoline, you got the magic question wrong yet again.

One, he's talking 3e, not 4e... and even if it was 4e you're still wrong.

The -2 dice pool penalty (or +2TN penaty in 3e), only applies for doing physical tasks while astrally perceiving.
An example of this would be trying to aim a pistol using it's astral shadow (you wouldn't get smartgun or laser sight bonuses either). Casting spells, or astral combat takes no penalty for astrally perceiving.

The big real advantage the projecting mage has is that it's mobility is practically unlimited... he's a ghots can go through walls, can move at ludicrous speed, etc. And his mental attributes replace his physical ones.

The advantage of the dual natured one, is that he can stop perceiving and drop out of astral space at the drop of a hat. He can't be trapped in a mana-barrier or the like.

[hobgoblin]

one interesting issue is that as astral combat is melee, the perceiving mage can pull a "old master", if he have the higher dice pool. This thanks to SR3 melee combat allowing the one with most successes to do damage, even if he was the defender.

[Karoline]

Hmm, always thought it applied to both. Must have been thinking of sustaining spells.

[Kagetenshi]

The projecting mage does also have other benefits. For instance, he can deny the percieving mage the ability to attack directly, only defend.

Apart from your "unusual directions" ploy, how would the projecting mage do this? The projecting mage can initiate or break off the combat essentially at his or her will, but while in combat nothing's stopping the perceiving mage from attacking.

~J

[nezumi]

Going twenty feet up or eighty feet in any direction.

I'm not saying this denies the percieving mage the chance to do damage when defending, just that he can never be the attacker unless the projecting mage allows him to be. Useful for things like taking advantage in dips in combat pool (the projecting mage tails along out of sight and reach, hears the sounds of combat, jumps back in and sees the percieving mage is under attack, attacks as the percieving mage is dodging fire or somesuch).

[Falconer]

And then the other mage drops his astral perception w/ a simple action and the projecting character can't do squat directly to him... except send in proxies (EG: summon spirit... order it to materialize in the room etc...)


I'm not as sure about 3e... but in 4e... if they are at melee range (astral combat), then the perceiver can still use an intercept maneuver to block the projecting mage from leaving melee.

Even astral ambushes... simple switch perception astral... free glance around (oh shit), simple turn off astral perception is a single initiative pass.

[Kagetenshi]

Going twenty feet up or eighty feet in any direction.

I'm not saying this denies the percieving mage the chance to do damage when defending, just that he can never be the attacker unless the projecting mage allows him to be. Useful for things like taking advantage in dips in combat pool (the projecting mage tails along out of sight and reach, hears the sounds of combat, jumps back in and sees the percieving mage is under attack, attacks as the percieving mage is dodging fire or somesuch).

Huh. On review, if you have sufficient movement you can indeed pass by someone without risking interception provided you make an attack in the process; I guess the only reason you'd let the Interception chance happen is if you wanted to use Full Defense to just avoid it.

Good to know.

~J

[nezumi]

Yes, yes, of course. That's what I was talking about the whole time! (Page number?)


Falconer - indeed, generally a perceiving mage should only be embroiled in combat as long as he keeps himself perceiving, which he can end with a thought. However, that wasn't the question, and there are cases when that option isn't available (such as being dual-natured).


Hmm... If I'm projecting and I attack through the floor at someone, would that give me the bonus for 'enemy is prone' (since relative to me, he is?)