[X] My Assistant

[Tyro]

I agree with The Jake. If he plays his character true, he'll be pissed off the whole module (year game time). More importantly, being Outspoken, he'll most likely piss someone else off. I haven't ran Dawn of the Artifacts, but that sounds like it might be the better choice for your team.

I might be able to convince him to change it to Biased. The character in question is a Desert Wars vet turned straight merc, so he'll be used to doing things he doesn't like.

[Semerkhet]

I'm running my group through Dawn of the Artifacts right now. We're about halfway through and having a good time. I'm really looking forward to the *very mild spoiler*big chase scene at the end.

I've had to do far less tinkering with this adventure than most other published ones. It's nice that the NPCs seem intelligently statted out with non-corebook items.

[The Jake]

I might be able to convince him to change it to Biased. The character in question is a Desert Wars vet turned straight merc, so he'll be used to doing things he doesn't like.

I wouldn't change the character. It sounds like it was well thought out and part of the design. I'd run Dawn of the Ancients if I were you - or alternatively, read Ghost Cartels for ways in which you could alter it to allow such characters.

E.g. maybe the PCs are working for Lone Star to infiltrate the Seattle underworld? Some high society mooks to get a line on tempo?

- J.

[Cain]

Emergence isn't really an adventure, and does not come highly recommended, according to our own Knasser.

Ghost Cartels, I have to personally recommend against. It's too railroad-y, too scrambled in the beginning, and generally too much of a mess. It's got quality writing in it, but bad editing.

I haven't finished Dawn of the Artifacts yet, but I'm already having trouble with the fact they put a god-mode GMPC into the team. I'll put up a full review when I get done with it.

[The Jake]

Emergence isn't really an adventure, and does not come highly recommended, according to our own Knasser.

Ghost Cartels, I have to personally recommend against. It's too railroad-y, too scrambled in the beginning, and generally too much of a mess. It's got quality writing in it, but bad editing.

I haven't finished Dawn of the Artifacts yet, but I'm already having trouble with the fact they put a god-mode GMPC into the team. I'll put up a full review when I get done with it.

I completely forgot the God GMPC! I was planning on re-writing that section myself.

You have to admit however, based on his party composition, that Ghost Cartels isn't really viable.

- J.

[hahnsoo]

The God GMPCs are just like your typical Mr. Johnsons and plot NPCs in other adventures. Crucial plot NPCs don't have stats because the PCs aren't supposed to be stupid enough to try something against them (Mr. Johnsons and plot NPCs, not the GMPC). There are no immortal elves or dragons directly involved in Dawn of the Artifacts (you won't shoot a rocket launcher at them, in any case... you will run into agents of said entities, but that's typical for Shadowrun).

There's only one scene in which Frosty will ever use her powers, and she passes out when it happens. It's not like she's a drake. The elf adept is at the upper level of what is considered powerful for a typical runner, but he doesn't have any extraordinary abilities beyond that. The uber NPCs only exist to tie the adventure into the greater scheme of things in the Shadowrun metaplot, nothing more. In fact, if you delete the scene where Frosty passes out, you could easily replace Frosty and the other major NPCs with the mystical NPCs of your choice (and I would highly encourage this, if you have problems with them).

[Tyro]

I've been thinking of running Dawn of the Artifacts, but the issues with Frosty bug me.

[Method]

There are no immortal elves or dragons...

Well this is technically correct in Dusk. I think we should be clear that we are talking about the first installment (or 2 if you have Midnight) of a four part series. And that is with the possible exception of Frosty (we don't know for sure yet, as she's too young). Regardless, there are *very strong* ties to the ol' IE metaplot (which many people dislike) and I think the PTB have hinted (quite strongly) that there will be other celebrity appearances in future installments.

[hahnsoo]

I've been thinking of running Dawn of the Artifacts, but the issues with Frosty bug me.

What issues in particular? She's just a plot NPC who is your Johnson. The only people who are likely to care are veterans who have read and played Shadowrun for 20 years. Her interactions are only critical at the end, and even then, she only serves as a convenient source of cash for the end event. There's one event when she shows her power, but she passes out afterwards, and then it becomes a simple "kill all monsters" event.

You can run all of the Artifacts missions with a different character as a Johnson, with a bit of rewriting. Frosty isn't an immortal elf, nor does she possess the level of power of statblock NPCs like Perianwyr and Teachdaire, and you can easily insert pretty much anyone you want as the Mr. Johnson. Heck, you can have Fastjack do it, if you want, and just ignore the kill all monsters event. Or your regular Mr. Johnson.

[Tyro]

What issues in particular? She's just a plot NPC who is your Johnson. The only people who are likely to care are veterans who have read and played Shadowrun for 20 years. Her interactions are only critical at the end, and even then, she only serves as a convenient source of cash for the end event. There's one event when she shows her power, but she passes out afterwards, and then it becomes a simple "kill all monsters" event.

You can run all of the Artifacts missions with a different character as a Johnson, with a bit of rewriting. Frosty isn't an immortal elf, nor does she possess the level of power of statblock NPCs like Perianwyr and Teachdaire, and you can easily insert pretty much anyone you want as the Mr. Johnson. Heck, you can have Fastjack do it, if you want, and just ignore the kill all monsters event. Or your regular Mr. Johnson.

I guess you have a point. I love your siggy, by the way.

[Cain]

Hate to disappoint you, but Frosty is indeed an elf, and an immortal at that. The fact that she's an elf was revealed in the original Harlequin adventure, and the fact that she carries the immortal gene has been revealed in several other sources. In most published adventures, there are stat blocks for your fixers and Mr. Johnsons, simply so you have something to roll negotiation against. Frosty, as published, is a GMPC pure and simple.

[hahnsoo]

Hate to disappoint you, but Frosty is indeed an elf, and an immortal at that. The fact that she's an elf was revealed in the original Harlequin adventure, and the fact that she carries the immortal gene has been revealed in several other sources. In most published adventures, there are stat blocks for your fixers and Mr. Johnsons, simply so you have something to roll negotiation against. Frosty, as published, is a GMPC pure and simple.

*shrugs* So? Who cares? Are people so rage-blinded by immortalelflolz that they can't run a simple good adventure that uses Frosty as a NPC? Also, I would like to know, for my own information, these sources that indicate that Frosty is an immortal elf. She's a fuckin' elf, everyone knows that. It's the immortality part that I would like to know (several sources?). As far as I know, SR writers have waffled on this point.

It's a good detailed adventure that isn't overpowered. That's pretty much all you need to know about Dawn of the Artifacts.

[cndblank]

I'd say that the free SR mission are short and easy to run.

They are very good for learning SR4 (both for the GM and the players).


Agree on Ghost Cartels, but there is a lot of useful pieces in it.


Dawn of Artifacts is very good and the meta plot is kept light, but I wouldn't start a campaign with it.

[hahnsoo]

Dawn of Artifacts is very good and the meta plot is kept light, but I wouldn't start a campaign with it.

If you are starting a campaign in Lagos Nigeria, it's a great introduction to the city. But yes, other than that, I wouldn't. It's not meant to be a whole campaign... it's meant to be a one-shot adventure inserted into another campaign whenever you feel like it.

[Tyro]

Since these people are totally new to the world, I'd like to start them at street level and work up. I don't have the experience or (in my opinion) talent necessary to write adventures myself, so suggestions for modules (including order in which to run them) would be very much appreciated.

This includes third-party (i.e. fanbrew) modules which are, by general consensus, balanced and of similar quality with the official modules.

I should probably mention that I limit hits (NOT net hits) to Skill * 2, total DP modifiers to Skill + Stat, and total DP to 20. Use of Edge circumvents this.

Hardened armor provides auto-hits, and ItNW (i.e. spirits) gives Magic * 1.5 HA, not Magic * 2.

Agents (hacking) don't exist, and computer use is Skill + Stat (i.e. Hacking + Logic) with hits capped by program rating.

[hahnsoo]

Since these people are totally new to the world, I'd like to start them at street level and work up. I don't have the experience or (in my opinion) talent necessary to write adventures myself, so suggestions for modules (including order in which to run them) would be very much appreciated.

This includes third-party (i.e. fanbrew) modules which are, by general consensus, balanced and of similar quality with the official modules.

I should probably mention that I limit hits (NOT net hits) to Skill * 2, total DP modifiers to Skill + Stat, and total DP to 20. Use of Edge circumvents this.

Hardened armor provides auto-hits, and ItNW (i.e. spirits) gives Magic * 1.5 HA, not Magic * 2.

Agents (hacking) don't exist, and computer use is Skill + Stat (i.e. Hacking + Logic) with hits capped by program rating.

Your house rules are basically irrelevant to running a module, the way I'm reading them (this isn't an insult, it's a good thing). Run any of the modules here:
http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/downloads/

You can use a Table Rating of 1 for a beginning party. Adapt the setting as you see fit.

EDIT: This was already mentioned by Daylen in post 6 of this thread.

EDIT 2: If you are starting out as a GM, I highly suggest NOT using auto-hits for Hardened Armor. It leads to way more headaches for a starting GM than it's worth, especially when the PCs start using it against you. Nothing says "killjoy" more than "your gun can't blow up that vehicle, I'm sorry". And conversely, when your PCs are walking around with mobile walls that are impenetrable, you'll have to escalate the campaign so that every security guard carries APDS, or risk having invulnerable PCs.

[Tyro]

Your house rules are basically irrelevant to running a module, the way I'm reading them (this isn't an insult, it's a good thing). Run any of the modules here:
http://www.shadowrun4.com/missions/downloads/

You can use a Table Rating of 1 for a beginning party. Adapt the setting as you see fit.

EDIT: This was already mentioned by Daylen in post 6 of this thread.

EDIT 2: If you are starting out as a GM, I highly suggest NOT using auto-hits for Hardened Armor. It leads to way more headaches for a starting GM than it's worth, especially when the PCs start using it against you. Nothing says "killjoy" more than "your gun can't blow up that vehicle, I'm sorry". And conversely, when your PCs are walking around with mobile walls that are impenetrable, you'll have to escalate the campaign so that every security guard carries APDS, or risk having invulnerable PCs.

Maybe I'll only make it auto-hits for spirits, then.

[The Jake]

I don't have a problem with Forsty being immortal -- I mean Immunity to Age does not equal an unlimited Magic rating.

What I have a problem with is the bit where she nukes all the enemy in an absurd display of power as a deus ex machina. It could have been handled a lot more subtlely without undermining the efforts of the PCs.

- J.

[hahnsoo]

I don't have a problem with Forsty being immortal -- I mean Immunity to Age does not equal an unlimited Magic rating.

What I have a problem with is the bit where she nukes all the enemy in an absurd display of power as a deus ex machina. It could have been handled a lot more subtlely without undermining the efforts of the PCs.

- J.

Just remove that scene. It's not important. Spoilering the rest:

[ Spoiler ]

It's not a true deus ex machina, anyway, since she passes out afterwards, and then your characters are subject to the usual dangers of Lagos (if you aren't being harassed when going through the Lagos slums, you aren't playing it right). If a bunch of ghouls represents an "intractable problem that can only be saved by an outside contrived source", then I don't know what to say about the runner team. I think I've played a street sam in the past that can do more damage in less time.

Maybe I'll only make it auto-hits for spirits, then.

Doesn't that make your Conjurer-focused mage more powerful? That's what I meant about mobile walls. Manifested Spirits basically can give you moving cover that doesn't impede you. If you want to run a campaign that way, that's fine. If you want to make Spirits less vulnerable to gunfire, though, just remove the ability for Armor Penetration to affect Immunity to Normal Weapons as a house rule, instead of changing the Hardened Armor mechanic.

[Tyro]

Just remove that scene. It's not important. Spoilering the rest:

[ Spoiler ]

It's not a true deus ex machina, anyway, since she passes out afterwards, and then your characters are subject to the usual dangers of Lagos (if you aren't being harassed when going through the Lagos slums, you aren't playing it right). If a bunch of ghouls represents an "intractable problem that can only be saved by an outside contrived source", then I don't know what to say about the runner team. I think I've played a street sam in the past that can do more damage in less time.

I think I'll do that (remove the deus ex).

Doesn't that make your Conjurer-focused mage more powerful? That's what I meant about mobile walls. Manifested Spirits basically can give you moving cover that doesn't impede you. If you want to run a campaign that way, that's fine. If you want to make Spirits less vulnerable to gunfire, though, just remove the ability for Armor Penetration to affect Immunity to Normal Weapons as a house rule, instead of changing the Hardened Armor mechanic.

That would work. How do you think I should handle stick 'n shock re: spirits?

[Edit:] I checked a spreadsheet from another thread which statted out average damage vs. spirits, and damage using 1 * Magic or 1.5 * Magic actually compares pretty well to RAW damage vs. lower Forces of spirits, with the advantage that higher Force spirits have a linear damage progression instead of asploding at higher DV's while ignoring lower ones. I'm going to go with 1.5 * Magic and auto-hits (for all, or for ItNW only if killing vehicles becomes a big issue), and switch to 1 * Magic if spirits turn out to be too powerful.

RE: Missions - The Denver Missions scenarios seem to be a good place to start. However, I'm a bit worried by the notes given with every scenario through #19 - If things don't work out as they did in the notes, how much tinkering will I have to do with subsequent adventures?

I'm thinking I'll run Denver with options for "side quests" like Dawn of the Artifacts etc.

[Cain]

The Denver Missions are quite good. I haven't had the opportunity to play in New York Missions yet, so I can't comment. But I ran a campaign starting with nothing but the Denver modules, and things went rather well.

*shrugs* So? Who cares? Are people so rage-blinded by immortalelflolz that they can't run a simple good adventure that uses Frosty as a NPC? Also, I would like to know, for my own information, these sources that indicate that Frosty is an immortal elf. She's a fuckin' elf, everyone knows that. It's the immortality part that I would like to know (several sources?). As far as I know, SR writers have waffled on this point.

A "simple good adventure" featuring a GMPC in a prominent role is pretty much an oxymoron. Sources that reveal Frosty as an immortal, IIRC, include the Dragon Heart Trilogy and possibly even Harelquin itself. I seem to recall a sentence or two in her writeup mentioning that, but it's been a while since I went over Harlequin.

[hahnsoo]

A "simple good adventure" featuring a GMPC in a prominent role is pretty much an oxymoron. Sources that reveal Frosty as an immortal, IIRC, include the Dragon Heart Trilogy and possibly even Harelquin itself. I seem to recall a sentence or two in her writeup mentioning that, but it's been a while since I went over Harlequin.

It's such a prominent role, that you can't possibly completely write her out of the adventure. Nope, not at all.

Wait a minute. You CAN. And the adventure would be the same, except for a single scene. I demand a refund!

Seriously, you are overblowing it. The adventure can be run completely without her, replacing "Frosty" with "Your current Johnson or his agent in your current campaign", and it will run without a hitch. It doesn't matter whether she is immortal, either, because she's twinky enough as it is without immortal status (who knows how well the two are intertwined?). But at the same time, she's totally not necessary for the adventure. All you really need is someone who has a 1 million nuyen bankroll or can bluff a 1 million nuyen bankroll somehow (for the scene near the end) and the ability to fly the runners to Lagos at a moment's notice (by plane, not super powers). This could be any corporate contact from a variety of A, AA, and AAA corporations.

Hell, you can KEEP the scene and have the corporate contact call in an airstrike instead. Works just as well, and without any mystic connection to teh Forth Wurldz.

Her writeup in Harlequin fails to mention her immortal status, from what I've skimmed in the past day. But I could have missed something. Which book in the Dragonheart Trilogy did they mention this? I don't recall anything about her immortal status being revealed in those novels. Her presence in those books are also incidental and not central to the plot, other than as a foil to Harlequin.

[Warlordtheft]

I've been thinking of running Dawn of the Artifacts, but the issues with Frosty bug me.

I replaced her with another NPC that the PC's already knew and was about the same skill level of the PC's. Granted-the group was already in lagos so the Johnson bit was a little easier. If you do replace her, use another mage to do so (as some of the things she does are basic mage type things), and you'll have to adjust a few things.

[DireRadiant]

I've been thinking of running Dawn of the Artifacts, but the issues with Frosty bug me.

You can always skip or modify the scene in someway. Plenty of suggestions already made for that.

[Semerkhet]

I don't have a problem with Forsty being immortal -- I mean Immunity to Age does not equal an unlimited Magic rating.

What I have a problem with is the bit where she nukes all the enemy in an absurd display of power as a deus ex machina. It could have been handled a lot more subtlely without undermining the efforts of the PCs.

- J.

As I said before, I'm in the middle of running Dawn right now. It does seem to me like the author intended Jane to be the sort of NPC that annoys most of us with how powerful she is. However, I propose that nothing Jane is described as doing in the adventure requires her to possess powers beyond the normal range of player character magicians. Here's how I'm handling (and plan to handle) the "Frosty issue."

[ Spoiler ]

First, I discarded the street name of Frosty. It's just silly. Jane works just fine. (IMO, of course)

I admit to being a bit perturbed at the way the author wrote her as hiding her magical ability completely until the big ghoul chow scene and then making it seem like the spell she cast was beyond anything the PCs had ever even heard of. To quote the "Tell it to them Straight" section:

You’re all quiet for a second, shocked at the display of … what exactly was that? Magic? No magic like you’ve ever seen.

Oh, please.

Let's break down what Jane did and see if it was beyond the mortal ken. Jane is described as a Grade 8+ initiate with a big honkin' power focus. Yeah, that's pretty powerful, but IMO you don't have to be *that* powerful to pull off what's described in the Ambush section (with one exception I'll get to later).

The way her spell is described is like the shock wave of an explosion, minus any shrapnel or heat. That sounds exactly like the "Blast" elemental effect in the sidebar on page 164 of Street Magic. So it's simply an Indirect Combat Spell(Elemental) with a Drain Code of F/2+5. The targets of the spell are, as described on page 34 of Dusk, standard ghouls out of SR4A with Firearms Group and Dodge added. So you've got a bunch of Body 7 ghouls with *no armor* resisting this spell. The Grade 1 initiate in my group (w/Magic 6, Sorcery 5, Power Focus 2) could cast that at his maximum of Force 12, spend Edge on the Drain roll and not kill himself. He'd probably get net successes on all but a few of the ghouls and blow them all to pieces.

Now, I ask you, does Jane need GMPC status to accomplish what is described in the scene? I don't think so. I think that the mid-to-upper end of typical PC magician power range could pull this off. If anything, Jane passing out seems unrealistic.

The only piece that doesn't fit is the implication that she centers the spell effect on herself and affects targets in a radius around her without harming her allies. That obviously runs counter to how Area Indirect Combat Spells are supposed to work. I decided to rationalize it as a not-widely-known metamagic technique that allows the caster to center a spell on him/herself and exclude area around them from the spell effect at a cost of 1 die per meter. The outer radius of the spell effect is unchanged. So, assuming the team is within a few meters of Jane, she subtracts a few dice from her test and creates a doughnut shaped spell effect that takes out the ghouls. If the PC mage expresses interest and maintains good relations with Jane, maybe she'll teach him the technique someday.

Edit: It just occurred to me that this scene takes place in a Rating 3 Toxic Zone. That ups the ante a bit, but I think my basic argument still holds.

Anyway, the TLDR version is that you don't have to play Jane Foster as an uber-NPC in order for her to do everything described in the adventure "as written." My players have no clue about the metaplot backstory surrounding Jane (it never comes up) and they actually really like her so far.