Genetic Heritage and You, a quick question Options

[Karoline]

this quality is either fairly weak or too strong either way its a loser.

A 0.2 essence cost shifts this quality from the "Useless" bin to the "Overpowered" bin? How do you figure? It is a 10BP quality which gives you the equivalent of a 20 BP quality and a bit extra (The 20% cost discount) in exchange for 0.2 essence (Or only 0.1 essence if you have more cyberware than bioware).

I'm confused as to why people are calling this useless. This seems like it would be a great quality for anyone who wanted a higher stat, and lets face it, everyone wants that. The only real difference in usefulness between it costing essence and not costing essence is for awakened, as it makes an exceptional quality for them as it is one of the few ways in which they can potentially raise their stats without sacrificing magic (If it doesn't cost essence). If it does cost essence then for them it is actually a fairly decent tossup between this and exceptional attribute because EA doesn't require a loss of a point of magic, but it costs 10 extra BP, and more notably, 10 extra BP from their 35 quality cap which they are already hard up on for the points put into awakening in the first place.

[Draco18s]

If it does cost essence then for them it is actually a fairly decent tossup between this and exceptional attribute because EA doesn't require a loss of a point of magic, but it costs 10 extra BP, and more notably, 10 extra BP from their 35 quality cap which they are already hard up on for the points put into awakening in the first place.

And that is what we call balance.

[Karoline]

And that is what we call balance.

Which is my point. Costing essence it is generally good for people that don't care about essence, and a tossup for people who don't. If it doesn't cost essence it is really good for both. Essentially if it costs essence then exceptional attribute still has a purpose, and if it doesn't cost essence then exceptional attribute doesn't really have a purpose beyond buying it in the future with karma (Or very very rarely if someone really wanted it in chargen)

[Mordinvan]

It's all natural so long as you artificially alter the parent?

That's kinda how evolution works ya. If it caused essence loss because each subsequent generation was not renamed the human species would go extinct in a small handful of generations due to essence loss, since each generation have about 6 mutations (most silent) the previous generation did not, this would very quickly add up to the 6 essence each human has, and our species goes bye-bye.

[Draco18s]

That's kinda how evolution works ya. If it caused essence loss because each subsequent generation was not renamed the human species would go extinct in a small handful of generations due to essence loss, since each generation have about 6 mutations (most silent) the previous generation did not, this would very quickly add up to the 6 essence each human has, and our species goes bye-bye.

Artificially Induced Genesplicing is not natural selection via mutation.

[Delarn]

Again, even if it's not natural mutation. The next generation will not suffer the thrauma from the gene mods. Then it become natural.

[Falconer]

Again...

1. a woman is born w/ all her egg cells she'll use during her lifetime. Those aren't modified during genetherapy. Sexual cells have radically different DNA strands than normal cells and would not respond the same way to gene therapy.

2. EVEN WHEN THE DNA IS MODIFIED, the essence reductions still carry to the next generation. See Ghouls... even natural born ghouls still only have 5 essence. And that's about as close to a natural genetic therapy as you can get.

3. Another thing which isn't addressed is... if this is the case. Then you've set the grounds for a massive eugenics movement... especially one devoted to making superhumans through controlled evolution. The only thing is you've taken animal husbandry and turned it on it's head.

4. No good reasons have been given GAMEWISE... why a character should get something for nothing. If for 10BP I can get +1 reaction on my dwarf WITHOUT AN ESSENCE HIT and further ongoing benefits... as opposed to 20BP for the quality. Then there's a clear problem w/ game balance mechanics.

[Kalvan]

Again...

1. a woman is born w/ all her egg cells she'll use during her lifetime. Those aren't modified during genetherapy. Sexual cells have radically different DNA strands than normal cells and would not respond the same way to gene therapy.

Then again, is there any particular reason why, if the gene therapy is elective (at least close enough for government work, so to speak), would it be necissarily inconcieveable (pardon the pun) that she would have her eggs altered too?

2. EVEN WHEN THE DNA IS MODIFIED, the essence reductions still carry to the next generation. See Ghouls... even natural born ghouls still only have 5 essence. And that's about as close to a natural genetic therapy as you can get.

No it's not and we both know it. Ghouls, and all Infected for that matter, have variable Essense that rises and dips like a yo-yo due to their metabolism and feeding schedule. They are about as relevant to this matter as corporeal Free Spirits, since no known non-infected non spirit anything has the power Essesence Drain (not even as a spell, last time I checked, though with the Dragons and Immortal Elves you can never be too sure (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ).

3. Another thing which isn't addressed is... if this is the case. Then you've set the grounds for a massive eugenics movement... especially one devoted to making superhumans through controlled evolution. The only thing is you've taken animal husbandry and turned it on it's head.

Actually, there could be multiple such movements. This is Shadowrun after all. Humanis/Human Nation and the New Dawn spring instantly to mind. Haplotheist Vedic faction Hindu fundamentalists and/or Nazi groups are another...

4. No good reasons have been given GAMEWISE... why a character should get something for nothing. If for 10BP I can get +1 reaction on my dwarf WITHOUT AN ESSENCE HIT and further ongoing benefits... as opposed to 20BP for the quality. Then there's a clear problem w/ game balance mechanics.

Well, at my table, the benefits of Genecrafted aren't included in the Genetic Heritage quality (since usually only one parent is modified and they weren't planned mattings between mom and dad in that sense) and must be bought seperately. (Genetic Heritage is still a 10 build point edge though). Of course, those are just House Rules, but its something Catalyst should have changed in an errata. There are so many stupid prejudices ingame that adding adding in metagame bigotries like Gameplay and Story Segregation and Violation of Common Sense can feel really tiresome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Besides, at my table, people really wanting to max out on Bioware tend to take Type O System instead.

[Delarn]

Again...

1. a woman is born w/ all her egg cells she'll use during her lifetime. Those aren't modified during genetherapy. Sexual cells have radically different DNA strands than normal cells and would not respond the same way to gene therapy.

2. EVEN WHEN THE DNA IS MODIFIED, the essence reductions still carry to the next generation. See Ghouls... even natural born ghouls still only have 5 essence. And that's about as close to a natural genetic therapy as you can get.

3. Another thing which isn't addressed is... if this is the case. Then you've set the grounds for a massive eugenics movement... especially one devoted to making superhumans through controlled evolution. The only thing is you've taken animal husbandry and turned it on it's head.

4. No good reasons have been given GAMEWISE... why a character should get something for nothing. If for 10BP I can get +1 reaction on my dwarf WITHOUT AN ESSENCE HIT and further ongoing benefits... as opposed to 20BP for the quality. Then there's a clear problem w/ game balance mechanics.

Ghouls are at 5 essence when born that way ? (Need quote and book rules)
Genetic Heritage does not specify what is free so the ambiguity is there. I won't allow a character to pic metagenic with this quality, I would only allow them to pick certain type of modification, that would let the user to have them. I'm looking at what the dev told me and it's quite it. Read it like you want it's your game once you start playing it. So if everyone around the table agree with it how the GM read the rule then be it. Listen to your players they know if it's unbalancing or not. But if you play with munchkin, impose your view.

[Kalvan]

Besides, if the Genetic Heritage quality costs Essence due to that in game meta-answer, than undergoing SURGE and becoming a changeling should have simmilar Essence costs to Bioware (true, it may be at Delta Grade costs, but still, if the issue is the Naming contraversey, that's about the only way I can see this fairly being sauce for the goose and gander.

[Falconer]

Kalwan...

Okay, NOT ALL INFECTED HAVE VARIABLE ESSENCE. Vampires are generally the poster child for this one. Only certain infected have variable essence though and they all feed through the drain power. Once a ghoul is infected, it loses a variable portion of essence as part of the virus running it's course and altering it's DNA. However, IF it has children... natural born ghouls start w/ essence 5. Their essence does not fluctuate up and down as a function of feeding.


Congrats, by now intentionally 'altering' the egg. You have now entered the realm of the genecrafted!!! (which is when the alterations are done before/during/after fertilization, IE: you've intentionally subjected your baby to bioware/genecrafting before it's born). So you've shot a hole in your own argument, that the change is 'natural' to the child. (if it's not for genecrafted, it's not for heritage either).


As far as the last... my point is. You see people who haven't developed coherent arguments, and never learned basic argumentative skills. I can see potential arguments that the ability is a little underpowered and the 20% cost reduction should also include a 20% essence reduction. However, I've seen no one build one single solid argument for free on game balance grounds. All arguments presented are essentially on fluff grounds in a fantasy setting. No nod or thought is given to gameplay effects (especially after multiple generations of free inherited modifications).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Okay, NOT ALL INFECTED HAVE VARIABLE ESSENCE. Vampires are generally the poster child for this one. Only certain infected have variable essence though and they all feed through the drain power. Once a ghoul is infected, it loses a variable portion of essence as part of the virus running it's course and altering it's DNA. However, IF it has children... natural born ghouls start w/ essence 5. Their essence does not fluctuate up and down as a function of feeding.

Congrats, by now intentionally 'altering' the egg. You have now entered the realm of the genecrafted!!! (which is when the alterations are done before/during/after fertilization, IE: you've intentionally subjected your baby to bioware/genecrafting before it's born). So you've shot a hole in your own argument, that the change is 'natural' to the child. (if it's not for genecrafted, it's not for heritage either).

Well I see Ghouls (with their Natural Essence at 5 at Birth) being a result of a Disease... Some diseases have a deletrious effect on the body in the long term and HMHVV is obviously one of them... so I would not equate it to a Metagenetic improvement (or a mutation over a thousand years for that matter)...

As for the second argument... once that genecrafted child grows up and has children of there own, the resulting child might inherit the genecraft (dependent upon whether it is recessive or dominant), but I would not see that child losing essence over that... as someone pointed out earlier, beneficial mutations do not tend to eradicate the race that inherits them, and if inherited beneficial genes cost essence, eventually the human race would extinguish)... What I see as more probable is that eventually you would have a new "race" of metahumanity that would evolve alongside the rest of metahumanity...

But that is just me... Not really that invested in the debate, but it is interesting indeed...

Keep the Faith

[Stahlseele]

A new Race of Humanity?
Like the Metahumans? O.o

[Draco18s]

Genetic Heritage does not specify what is free so the ambiguity is there.

Except that every quality that grants some reduction in the essence cost of cyber/bio/etc. specifies that it reduces the ESSENCE COST by stating the words "essence cost" explicitly.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A new Race of Humanity?
Like the Metahumans? O.o

I see it as similar to what you see in a High Science game (Such as Space Master)... with 15 different versions of humanity (Transhumans) that have been adapted to certain environments... I would see it similarly in Shadowrun, if you expanded the timelinew a little bit, as certainly, at the current time there would not be such an issue as you would still be in the first generation of such types of modifications... and some of these may not actually translate to the next generation due to recessive qualities that may or may not be present (as a Megacorp designing such treatments, I would definitely make the DNA strand generally recessive, so that it would (hopefully) not express true in the next generation)

And yes, Metahumanity (Elves, Orks, Trolls, etc) are a good example of this, thoguh the traits for metahumanity are generally Dominant as they mostly express true (though not always in some rare cases)...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except that every quality that grants some reduction in the essence cost of cyber/bio/etc. specifies that it reduces the ESSENCE COST by stating the words "essence cost" explicitly.

Specific trumps general, and all that... Some people see the Quality as a specific trump of the normal rules...

Keep the Faith

[Draco18s]

Specific trumps general, and all that... Some people see the Quality as a specific trump of the normal rules...

What "normal" rules? There are no rules here. Every other quality is a specific that trumps nothing.

[Delarn]

Except that every quality that grants some reduction in the essence cost of cyber/bio/etc. specifies that it reduces the ESSENCE COST by stating the words "essence cost" explicitly.

After the punctuation of the sentence. where the FREE is not included and thus making it FREE FREE and not just free of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

[Draco18s]

I'm pretty sure "free" is a cost reduction and still bound by the rule.

[Delarn]

I'm pretty sure "free" is a cost reduction and still bound by the rule.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/free

Genetic Heritage
Cost: 10 BP
Though genetweaking isn’t yet widespread, the technology to
successfully modify a metahuman genome has been around for well
over three decades. It is thus possible that children have inherited
genetically-modified genes from one or both progenitors. Such an
inheritance means the character can start play with one genetic
modification (see p. 72) for free. Such characters also possess an
unusually high tolerance to the introduction of foreign code into
their genome. As a result, the nuyen costs of transgenic genetic
enhancements for the character are reduced by 20 percent.

They got high tolerence but it just reduce the cost in (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) so basically it tells you : Hey you accept more easily the mods I'll charge you less ... but your body suffer the sameway ? So it should also include an Essence cost ... The rule is not good anyway. it should be : Cost reduction of 20% for both (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and essense !

[Draco18s]

They got high tolerence but it just reduce the cost in (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) so basically it tells you : Hey you accept more easily the mods I'll charge you less ... but your body suffer the sameway ? So it should also include an Essence cost ... The rule is not good anyway. it should be : Cost reduction of 20% for both (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and essense !

...Do you even know how a genetic treatment works? If the body more readily accepts the altered gene then you need less of it to enact the desired change. Producing the retroviral material is very very expensive, so needing 20% less of it means quite a bit.

It also clearly states that the 20% reduction is to nuyen costs only, so stop trying to argue that it's also 20% essence too. So while I'd agree that a 20% essence reduction would match the fluff more closely, that's not what the crunch says.

[Delarn]

...Do you even know how a genetic treatment works? If the body more readily accepts the altered gene then you need less of it to enact the desired change. Producing the retroviral material is very very expensive, so needing 20% less of it means quite a bit.

It also clearly states that the 20% reduction is to nuyen costs only, so stop trying to argue that it's also 20% essence too. So while I'd agree that a 20% essence reduction would match the fluff more closely, that's not what the crunch says.

ok... still the FREE part should not cost essence.

[Rystefn]

Meh, I can see both sides of the argument, but I wouldn't rule that it covers essence as well as money, personally. Sets a bad precedent. I wouldn't want to have a 'ware dealer offer to throw in cybereyes for free and have players start trying to argue that means zero essence cost (if you think no player would try it, you're either very naive or very lucky with your players).

[Karoline]

...Do you even know how a genetic treatment works? If the body more readily accepts the altered gene then you need less of it to enact the desired change. Producing the retroviral material is very very expensive, so needing 20% less of it means quite a bit.

Of course why exactly having a genetic modification inherited from your parents would make it any easier to change your DNA (Especially if that change has become 100% natural and doesn't cost you essence) is anyone's guess.

Now doing the in vetro one at reduced cost makes alot of sense because... well, there isn't as much of you that has to be modified, in fact, this would be amazingly beyond easy and I'm surprised that the cost reduction is only 20%

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Of course why exactly having a genetic modification inherited from your parents would make it any easier to change your DNA (Especially if that change has become 100% natural and doesn't cost you essence) is anyone's guess.

Now doing the in vetro one at reduced cost makes alot of sense because... well, there isn't as much of you that has to be modified, in fact, this would be amazingly beyond easy and I'm surprised that the cost reduction is only 20%

DNA is DNA, regardless of whether it is In-Vitro, In Utero or post birth...

Keep the Faith