Genetic Heritage and You, a quick question Options

[Draco18s]

DNA is DNA, regardless of whether it is In-Vitro, In Utero or post birth...

Except that a zygote has fewer cells that need to have their DNA altered, making a smaller retrovirus culture, making it cheaper to produce, resulting in.....

COST REDUCTION! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Now, if "DNA is DNA" and that whole essence thing, then geneware shouldn't cost any essence at all, should it?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except that a zygote has fewer cells that need to have their DNA altered, making a smaller retrovirus culture, making it cheaper to produce, resulting in.....

COST REDUCTION! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Now, if "DNA is DNA" and that whole essence thing, then geneware shouldn't cost any essence at all, should it?

You are right... it shouldn't, but lets not get into that can of worms, Hmmmmmmm...
Oh, and are you going to tell me that a gene culture for an infant is smaller than a gene culture for a 900 lb. Troll... Really?
DNA is replicative, so a tiny culture is all you would ever truly need... though it might take more time to affect the Troll vs. the Infant, I will give you that.

Keep the Faith

[Karoline]

Except that a zygote has fewer cells that need to have their DNA altered, making a smaller retrovirus culture, making it cheaper to produce, resulting in.....

COST REDUCTION! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yep, that was my point. If you're doing it to the egg, then you only have to affect a single cell, as opposed to a lengthy retro-viral type procedure which adjusts the DNA of every cell in your body. I would imagine the cost difference in this should be something like an 80-99% reduction, instead of a tiny 20% reduction, but we are looking at game balance here.

Now, if "DNA is DNA" and that whole essence thing, then geneware shouldn't cost any essence at all, should it?

Exactly. if "DNA is DNA" which from a DNA standpoint it more or less is, then why would getting a change to your DNA affect essence? The fact is that it is simply a game balance mechanism (Like essence in the first place) and so people can go on and on about naming and 'natural genes' and all this other junk, but the point is that this needs to be looked at from a game balance issue, because that is what essence is.

So, simply ask yourself if it makes sense for a 10 BP quality to give you a nuyen and essence free geneware of your choice, and a 20% nuyen discount on all future geneware. Personally this seems like a bit much, especially since you can pick stuff that costs 9 BP worth of nuyen and mimics a more expensive quality. Even costing essence it still seems like a handy quality in my opinion. So yeah, from a game balance perspective (Which is really the most important perspective in a game) it seems as though it should cost essence.

[Draco18s]

You are right... it shouldn't, but lets not get into that can of worms, Hmmmmmmm...
Oh, and are you going to tell me that a gene culture for an infant is smaller than a gene culture for a 900 lb. Troll... Really?
DNA is replicative, so a tiny culture is all you would ever truly need... though it might take more time to affect the Troll vs. the Infant, I will give you that.

Yes I am going to argue that because no, DNA is not replicative. Cells are replicative and contain a minimum of 3 additional proteins necessary to replicate DNA strands. You can't just inject 1 strand of DNA into one cell in your body and expect it to spread, it doesn't work like that (even assuming that every cell in your body replicates which is not the case).

And not to mention that the patient would need to be on anti-viral drugs cocktail during the whole procedure. Which means they'd need to be in a bio-isolation unit.

There's actually a story I've read which deals with that rather nicely. The DNA retrovirus thing is down a ways, but is dealt with in an amazingly realistic manner (were such technology in existence).

(Yes, the author doesn't want the story linked from other places, but given that the link is freaking buried inside his giant "about me" page I figured I might as well)

[Delarn]

DNA is DNA and should cost body index not essence !

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

DNA is DNA and should cost body index not essence !

Except that... there is no Body Index in 4th Edition...

@ Draco18s... Good Points...

Thanks

Keep the Faith

[Stahlseele]

Except that... there is no Body Index in 4th Edition...

Which is dumb! In my eyes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Which is dumb! In my eyes.

Only from those who prefer the mechanics of previous edition... I am not one of those individuals... using Body Index and Essence allowed for some exceptionally powerful (over the top) individuals way beyond crazy... a lot of individuals prefer that, but not me... I think that the mechanics used in 4th are much better for playabbility as there is a functional limit that makes you (the player) make some tough choices... rather than getting your cake and eating it too, as in previous editions...

[Squinky]

I never really dug body index. I prefer the current method.

[Stahlseele]

Bioindex was Essence+3 in SR3. So no matter what, you never had more then 9 points available.
And as soon as your Essence went, so did your bioindex.
Under SR2, Bioindex was dependent on Body. So yes, a Troll could get it up to 18.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Bioindex was Essence+3 in SR3. So no matter what, you never had more then 9 points available.
And as soon as your Essence went, so did your bioindex.
Under SR2, Bioindex was dependent on Body. So yes, a Troll could get it up to 18.

Yes in both cases... though, the combination of Essence AND BioIndex was a crazy combination as you could Always have at least 3 points of BioIndex even if you had an Essence of .0001...

If you really think about it though, you get the same BASIC effect with the reducing of the cost in Essence of the lesser augmentation...

I mean Really, think about it... 4.5 Essence lost to Augmentation is still a total of 3 points of Cyberware and 3 points of Bioware (6 points total), and yet it only costs you that 4.5 cost in Essence... I am sure that you can get more... if my initial math is right, you get 4 points of one, and 3.9999999 for the other for an essence cost of 5.9999999... and that does not bring grades/biocompatability/adapsin/etc. into the equation for a truly obscene amount of 'ware

Now that I think about it, different routes, but the same general effect, assuming that you wish to go through the math to keep it straight...

Keep the Faith

[Stahlseele]

Nope, it was actual essence.
So maximum of 9 points for bioindex.
Get Smartlink, Eyes, Plastic Bones for 1.5 Points of Essence and your Bioindex falls from 9 to 7,5

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nope, it was actual essence.
So maximum of 9 points for bioindex.
Get Smartlink, Eyes, Plastic Bones for 1.5 Points of Essence and your Bioindex falls from 9 to 7,5

Yep, Ninja Edited while you were posting...

Keep the Faith

[Stahlseele]

Well, in 3rd, there was no adapsin and biocompatibility either . . but yes, you nincompoop ninjaed me ^^

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, in 3rd, there was no adapsin and biocompatibility either . . but yes, you nincompoop ninjaed me ^^

Apologies... My Editing Skills are lacking today, and just as I Posted it, I noticed a few GLARING issues that I wanted to fix...

I don't get the Ninja Edit often, but on occassion...

Keep the Faith

[Squinky]

Ah, my memories were mixed up. SR2 bioindex was wonky, with orcs and Trolls being insane. SR3 didn't really matter, as it is the same essentially.

Although sometimes the new 1/2 essence cost of the lower value bio or cyber can get crazy.

[Delarn]

Anyway, I don't think that Genetic Heritage should cost essence. So for that reason I ditch this quality in limbo. They should have made it dead to the point by writting it right.

[Karoline]

Anyway, I don't think that Genetic Heritage should cost essence. So for that reason I ditch this quality in limbo. They should have made it dead to the point by writting it right.

It isn't really that vague. Free 99.999% of the time means 'doesn't cost money' not 'no strings attached'. In this case the 'string attached' is that it still costs essence.

I mean, if you could site my any precedent for 'ware not costing essence I might be possibly inclined to not dismiss the 'free means no essence cost' idea out of hand.

Many genetech Mysterious
Implants can be administered in vitro, or even inherited from
parents; bioware, cyberware and nanoware typically require
a more surgical setting, which the character may or may not
be aware of—a lost weekend or a torture session without
anesthetic, the end result is the same.
A Mysterious Implant should not reduce a character’s
Essence to 0 or below at character generation—talk to the
player and ask them to either choose a new Negative quality
of the same point value, or remove existing implants and
replace them with the mysterious augmentation.

While not specific, it does seem to indicate here that inheriting a geneware is no different than having it done in vitro or later in life.

[Delarn]

Thus making the Heritage dumb and stupidly not natural. This part of the augmentation book has been banned from my table. You want free mods become surged.

[Karoline]

Thus making the Heritage dumb and stupidly not natural. This part of the augmentation book has been banned from my table. You want free mods become surged.

Or you could just use the 'does cost essence' reading and suddenly it isn't dumb.

The fact is you're anyone arguing about the fluff is making an argument about something they don't know much about (Genetics, evolution, gene therapy, etc) under a fictitious system that has no basis in reality (essence) and trying to make claims about what should or shouldn't happen based on the 'logic' thereof.

[Delarn]

Logic, there is no logic in what I said because I'm thinking about what should be ... And it's not.

[Karoline]

Logic, there is no logic in what I said because I'm thinking about what should be ... And it's not.

You think it should be essence free because it is 'natural' because you're logic tells you so.

[Delarn]

Anyway I won't be using that quality if it start argument around my table like it's beginning to do.

[Mordinvan]

Artificially Induced Genesplicing is not natural selection via mutation.

We have many retro-viral insertions in our genome. Each of these is an exogenic addition, done in a fashion which would be more messy and dangerous then the processes employed in a lab. If you wish to cost essence for any genetic alterations caused using chemicals, then no one born past the industrial age would have 6 essence as virtually everyone carries some from of mutation resulting from ozone deficiency, water or atmospheric pollutants, or leftovers from nuclear tests. Given background count (astral taint) is proportional to the emotional significance of the event, it seems unlikely a 'taint' of intention could stick with a given genetic alteration over successive generations, since places like Hiroshima and the Nazi death camps are cooling down, and thousands of people died and suffered there. I understand my opinion on this matter contradicts RAW, but RAW has no justification for this which would not have resulted in the extinction of our species, and as such is not something I can abide by.

[Mordinvan]

Ghouls are at 5 essence when born that way ? (Need quote and book rules)
Genetic Heritage does not specify what is free so the ambiguity is there. I won't allow a character to pic metagenic with this quality, I would only allow them to pick certain type of modification, that would let the user to have them. I'm looking at what the dev told me and it's quite it. Read it like you want it's your game once you start playing it. So if everyone around the table agree with it how the GM read the rule then be it. Listen to your players they know if it's unbalancing or not. But if you play with munchkin, impose your view.

Ghouls also can not survive off of anything which wasn't metahuman at some point. This shows something to be intrinsically wrong with their spirits, as even the meat of other primates would not suffice which would contain all the same chemicals our body tissue would. Since they need some 'supplemental' energy from metahuman flesh their reduced essence score makes a great deal of sense. Having my DNA rewritten so I have a double myostatin deletion ( muscle augmentation 4 ), which is a naturally occurring human mutation does not become an obligate cannibal. The signature of this gene work would be minimal on my spirit needing at least 4 hits to detect with assencing, and since it is also a mutation which occurs naturally in the population, it should pass perfectly fine to my children without them suffering for it, as exactly the same stretch of DNA already occurs in unmodified humans.